Anxiety and the Freeze Response (Episode 64)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hi, my name is Annalisa. I'm from um Estonia, Tallinn. And yes, you can use my name. Um I thought if you could perhaps uh have time and touch upon more about the freeze response in a panic attack. You know, usually I've had uh the the wish to run away, save myself, uh run away, but now I'm kind of always freezing. Another thing that's that's that's really scary for me is that I'm having several panic attacks in a row. Like I was so scared that something was like, you know, that I was gonna go crazy or I'm gonna have a psychosis or um some kind of an episode, so uh I called myself um an ambulance, but it is so scary, and if it lasts so long, it really you know makes you think that something really is going on. So, how can adrenaline uh create itself again so quickly? But I haven't really found anyone who's had this experience. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 64, entitled The Freeze Response. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK, specializing in anxiety disorders, also a previous sufferer and author of the book, and how does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_03 1:31

And I am Drew Lincolata. I am in New York in the USA, therapist in training, also specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, also a podcaster, an author, an educator, former sufferer, co-host of this lovely podcast. And today we're going to talk about freeze and fawn. We do freeze and fawn today.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

We'll touch a bit on fawn because it overlaps a little bit, but we'll do a separate episode entirely on the fawn response because there's a lot to chat about there. Um, but yeah, freeze response. Thank you, Annalisa, for sending in that question. Um, did you were you a freezer, Drew? Are you do you have four drawers for vegetables and fish and things like that stored at minus 17?

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Um, I have never been a freezer, so I don't have any personal like lived experience with the freeze response. I know it's real, I know many people do, but I no, I was strictly a fight and flight guy. I've never had the freeze thing. Were you a freezer?

SPEAKER_05 2:28

Yeah, I freeze quite a lot. Um for context, people listening. Obviously, anxiety's central uh the central part of anxiety is the fight, flight freeze and fawn response. Um you know, we we're in fight mode when we want to attack or get angry at anxiety or when we become irritable with people around us and angry. Uh we're in flight mode when we want to run away to seek escapes, try to shortcut our anxiety. Uh you're in freeze response when you when you freeze in fear. Now, not literally freeze in terms of becoming immobile, but it becomes very difficult to move, to speak, to sequence thoughts. Um and yeah, we we call it the freeze response. Uh, and then the fawn response, which is when we want to placate or people please, um, difficult to say no, and we've become highly attuned to people's emotions and moods around us. Yeah. Uh, but we're gonna focus primarily on the freeze response today because it's a good question. Uh, I was a freezer, most of my panic attacks was freezing. Um, where don't get me wrong, I've had panic attacks where I'm up around pacing, things like that, but I've had panic where I've just frozen, where I'm on the spot and I don't really kind of know what I'm doing. That adrenaline flood has just prepped me, very rigid, uh, you know, in fear. Don't get me wrong, I could still get up. I'm not completely immobilized, but yeah, the the freeze response is a very common one.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Yeah, so what's interesting about that is by the way, the fawn thing is usually more you you see than the sort of social anxiety gad. It's different, it's not more. I don't I don't know if I've ever encountered somebody who experiences the fawn response in a in a panic attack situation. Have you seen that?

SPEAKER_05 4:23

Uh yeah, it's usually associated with not necessarily panic attack, but high anxiety. So people who struggle with uh what the term that's going around now is complex BTSD. Um, people have been on the traumatic uh end of abuse of relationships or neglect growing up, and that immediacy and the urgency that we can all relate to when it comes to panic and anxiety and stuff, um, is channeled into fawning to another person to get out of fawning and and people pleasing. Yeah, I see, I see it quite a lot. Um interesting because obviously we're we're humans with lives, and yes, we can develop fear of fear and misinterpret anxiety, but the amygdala will also remember other experiences to try and protect us from and mix them all together.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

But free interesting how you describe freeze though. Like I could move, I just I hear people say that whole like everything goes out the window and I don't know what to do, and they feel like they wind up frozen in inaction. What am I supposed to do again? I I don't remember the are there steps when I don't know. Everything goes out the window, everything I hear you guys say goes out of my head, and I and I I don't know what to do, and they feel frozen.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

Yeah, that is part of the freeze response. And sometimes if you struggle with PTSD, so if you've witnessed something traumatic and those memories are still knocking about in the hippocampus of your brain, and then you see a reminder or an association with that traumatic memory, uh, the brain can you can go into a bit of a freeze response. You know, the the old saying, you know, I was a deer in the headlights. That's literally a deer in the for in freeze response.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:09

If you ever watch any Attenborough documentaries where the you know the the gazelle's being chased by the lion gets caught and it goes limp, freeze response because it's uh it's a mechanism help uh designed to help us process harrowing things. So, for example, I listened to The Anxious Truth once and I went into freeze response because it was helpful.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

How did you recover from that? I've not moved since. He's been stuck in this chair for eight years now, it's really difficult. Uh so the thing about freeze though, it's it's I love that interpretation, it's meant to help us in a harrowing situation where we might be overwhelmed. Freeze is a way to sort of lock that out a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 6:56

Like, yeah, it's an old part of um the amygdala's old, so it's an old, it's an old response. And um, I mean, if you see it in other animals and stuff, you know, the theory is you know, when you freeze, you're less likely to be detected, yeah. Um, from predators and things like that. So sometimes that's just how your threat presents, and people's threat responses can present in in different ways. You know, most of my panic attacks were just like I was frozen, I was sat there, I was like, oh, and don't get me wrong, I wanted to escape, but I was also frozen and within decision, the executive function in your brain um almost becomes blocked off, and you're like, oh, I'm just frozen in fear. Um, but the key point to remember here is that you can still operate and function. And what's really helpful is to train yourself and to remind yourself and repeat over and over again if this happens, well, what's my plan in place here? You know, and if we've memorized it over and over again, when you hit the fog of panic and anxiety and urgency, because you've repeated this plan over and over again, it's like, oh, okay, well, and I've said that so much to myself that I know what to do now.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

Yeah. If you want to see the freeze response in action, you know Dan Harris, he's the American news anchor. He used to be on ABC News here in the US. He's incredibly famous now. He has, he's always in the top five mental health podcasts. I think he's the 10% happier guy. And by the way, when I wrote 7% slower, I was not aware of 10% happier for the record. But so Dan Harris is a news anchor who was he was anchoring the ABC Nightly News in front of millions of people like 10, 12 years ago, maybe more. And he had a panic attack on the air. It's on YouTube. If you search Dan Harris panic attack, you're gonna find it. That is the freeze response because you can literally watch him glaze over and just stop. And as it turns out, he was having a panic attack on the air, and it that he he morphed that into a whole mental health empire now, so good for him. But um yeah, shame on him for doing that.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

Who would be so egoist to turn their mental health struggles into a platform?

SPEAKER_03 9:17

Wait, I used to have panic attacks and now I have a podcast. I don't know anybody like that. But it's super interesting because he leaves it up there, he has no problem with it. He was I appreciate that he was so open about it, he talked about it, but you that's what the freeze response looks like. He just he just goes blank and that's it. Then they had it cut away, and he talked about it later on. What happened?

SPEAKER_05 9:39

My first ever panic attack was that freeze response with the derealization, DPDR, stuff like that. I was just like, what the hell is going on here? And I and I was moving very slowly and sluggishly. Yeah, I mean, I think it's helpful to conceptualize it as okay, I'm having a panic attack now. This isn't anything new, yeah. Uh, and at least with the question Sandorina, what I deduced from the question here is that there's a bit of inwards compulsion-y stuff here. And if you've not listened to the inwards compulsion episode, um this will apply to you. It's just that when we become so afraid and the amygdala detects that that there's a threat inside of us or in our brain, we freeze and our attention and focus becomes inwards. And if the if think about it, if the attention and threat is inwards, we don't need to fight, flight, and run away because we're here, we can see it. You know, and so it sounds a bit like you may be having panic and then stopping and observing, monitoring, compulsively scanning, checking to see if it's getting worse. Um, when you said that in the in the question, it kind of sounds what it's like, sounds like what it's like. Yeah. And also ruminating for trying to find the answer in your thoughts. And all your thoughts are saying is you're gonna go crazy, you're gonna develop psychosis, you're gonna die, ring an ambulance.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

Yeah, it because then the state itself, the freeze response itself becomes the problem. Like so the freeze response evolved like fight or flight and font to keep us safe in the case of an actual threat or a pending threat. There is no actual threat. So the freeze, the state of freeze itself then gets interpreted as the threat. And really it's when you think about that, the can you guys talk about the freeze response, which we've heard before, and I've heard for many, many years as doing podcasts and whatnot. Like, oh, I I need to know how do I get out of the freeze response? Well, you'll get out of the freeze response when the panic peaks and comes back down again. So usually baked into what do I do with the freeze response is I don't like this feeling. The the feeling itself of being almost immobilized or not knowing what to do is itself very frightening and I don't like it, and I want to do something about it. But technically, even if you sat frozen, you know, sort of blank for a few minutes, in the absence of another jolt of fear or making it worse, you would come out of that. So but the the same you we we'd probably argue, listen, as a fight or flighter as opposed to a freezer, I I wanted to get out of that fight or flight feeling. What do I do about that? So it's not any different. People sometimes, I think, freight uh look at the freeze response as, well, that's different. There must be different techniques for that, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:22

No, uh, you can still move. It's not like um sleep paralysis, where it's that's a different phenomenon where you know you wake up and your body part of your brain wakes up before the other part of the brain that controls movement, uh, the voluntary nervous system. Uh, and one of my best mates has sleep, sleep paralysis demon, but he's so used to it by now, he's like, Oh, not this again, you know. But he doesn't have an anxiety disorder. Um, but that's when you are quite literally immobilized because the brain hasn't woken up yet. But the freeze response is more you become rigid. So I my uh advice to anyone who's got the freeze response and to Annalisa is that rather than going, oh no, I'm in freeze response, it's I've become rigid because I'm in fight or flight, and I'm rigid because all my muscles are tense, because I've got all this adrenaline and cortisol pumping through my body, and so all my muscles have become really tense. And if you try that now, if you're listening now, try and tense every muscle in your body right now. So try and tense your legs, your calves, your arms, um chest, everything, teeth, everything. Now, now try and walk. You can still walk, yeah, but you look like Terminator, yeah, which is great. So definitely do it. At least video that you can still move.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Yeah, yeah, that you're right. And interesting because some people, and I've you know, the comments I love the comment section and I love the community. Sometimes it gets a little bit tough because people that have the freeze response, and I think like there's no way to know this. So I admittedly I don't know. But statistically, it would not be possible for the number of people in the comment section, generic comment section, who claim they are literally immobilized to actually be literally immobilized. Now, like sleep paralysis is actual immobilization. For the very tiny percentage of people who actually have a conversion disorder, you can become immobilized. That's true, but that is so unusual that it's not likely that you know, 50% of the freeze response people also literally become immobilized. It just feels like you're immobilized. I don't know what to do, and I'm frozen because I just simply don't know what action to take, and I can't, I can't think of what to do now is different than I cannot, I physically cannot move.

SPEAKER_05 14:53

Yeah, and and it's not accusatory to be like right, I don't know what to do now. Remember, your cognitive function um is depleted when it's kind of offline in the freeze response. Yeah, it goes offline, it's still there, but it runs at like 20, 30 percent. Uh, and that's why I always say to have the plan first, because your 20, 30 percent can remember that plan. So if you're you know, if you if you're frozen, I don't know, in in the supermarket or or in the park, but in the build-up, you've been like, no, no, I know what this is and it's scary, but I'm gonna keep putting one foot in front of the other, and then I'm actually gonna look around and just notice things around me, assure myself I'm safe, uh, and keep walking. And then I'm gonna actively kind of shrug my shoulders, loosen up a little bit, and kind of check in on those tense muscles and just keep going.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:48

Whilst feeling scared, the what you don't want to do is then find a bench, sit down, and be like, oh yeah, what if I have got psychosis? What if I do go crazy and whatever? Because then, yeah, they're gonna keep happening. So Annalisa said, but I had loads in a row. Yeah. Well, we know why. It's because we stopped and went inwards and we jumped on the rumination hamster wheel of body scanning, thought scanning, listening to the terrifying thoughts. No, the the plan is the thoughts can be there, but uh I know I'm safe. This has happened over and over again. I'm gonna just keep walking through the park because you know I've I've had enough of these now. And even though they're scary, my rational brain knows that nothing bad happens.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yeah, I think, especially for the folks listening who have that, and at least who specifically pointed out psychosis and insanity. So that's her core fear. Like a panic attack will lead me to a psychotic break of some kind. The freeze response, the freeze state would be, I think, extra scary because it fits right in with this. Like, well, my brain isn't working. This is my brain breaking. This is me losing my sanity. So, you know, that underlating panic, how could that possibly happen? Well, because even when it's coming back down, if you're sitting and scanning to see if it's is it right yet? Am I okay now? Am I is this am I getting better? And your brain decides, no, you're not better yet enough. Boom, trigger again. So that's that underlating panic. That's not news. And I don't mean that to be dismissive. That's for assurance. That's not news. Underlating panic is a thing for millions of people. It can happen, it happens to lots of people.

SPEAKER_05 17:17

Yeah, yeah, it's very common. And as Drew often says, you know, it's not special. Yeah, but just it's not it's just how your threat response presents. Yeah, get to know it, learn how predictable it can be and the patterns it throws at you, and then shelve it or shelve it abruptly, just put it in your bag and take it with you. Yeah, you don't need to sit down, pull it out of the bag, and then start staring at it and analyzing it because it's the same thing, you know. And and I know it's scary, and the threat response will literally create doubt. So you're like, oh, but what if it's different this time? What if this is the point where I do go crazy? No, it will just that's a doubt feeling. It doesn't mean that it's true.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Yeah, that's a hundred percent correct. One of the things that's uh even gets interesting or misinterpreted about the freeze response is again, it's always that I have to, well, what do I do? I have to do something, right? I'm uncomfortable, I'm afraid, I feel vulnerability and uncertain. I have to do something, don't I? But I can't because I I freeze, I'm a freezer. Well, that's okay, because you in the even if you aren't a freezer, you still didn't have to do something. Like anxiety disorders will fool us into thinking we're supposed to learn how to do more about the anxiety when really we're learning how to do less about it. So, as ridiculous as this sounds, consider that for somebody who's a fight or flighter like I was, I had to learn to look more like a freeze person. Now I wasn't in freeze, but I needed to have to learn to act more like the freeze people.

SPEAKER_05 18:47

So that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Yeah, I would get up and paste and uh you know, my I was all over the place. Like, you know, so I had to learn to like, what if I just sit quietly, almost like a freeze person has to, and just let this thing run through me. So yeah, uh the fighter flighter.

SPEAKER_05 19:05

Because I'm I'm I'm more of a freezer. Yeah. So it's like I would be more like, no, I need movement now. I gotta do something pacing and and and resisting, but like that's why I always say do what non-anxious you would do. So, like, non-anxious me, again, if I'm walking through the park to go and see the ducks, um, and then I stop because I'm frozen with fear immediately because I've rehearsed this. No, I know what this is. This is the my I've gone rigid, it's my threat response. My free I'm I've frozen in fear, whatever. What was non-anxious me doing again? Oh, yeah, I was gonna go see the ducks. I don't need to change those plans. Yes, I'll be walking up to the lake to see the ducks, like Terminator, because I'm all rigid and my muscles are thinking it's poor ducks. Like it's your last day, and uh still of Easter. But but I'm gonna do that and I'm gonna try and keep my attention external. In previous episodes, we were talking about the 51%. Yeah, it's impossible to have a hundred percent attention on everything around me, but I'm aiming for that 51% because some solid brain rewiring there.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Yeah, but and that's that thing where uh people with the it's so if you're a fighter flighter like I am, it it's a win to just not pace. Now, ninja level, after a lot of practices, yes, I could literally sit in a chair, put my hands on my lap, and and sit still through the peak of a panic attack. That's ninja level 3,000. It takes a lot of practice. But at first, just sitting down was a win. So for a freezer, even if you are in place in your chair or you're not moving to the supermarket, you've stopped walking, just the ability to relax your muscles in place and wiggle a little bit and loosen things up a little bit is a win. So in the end, we all converge sort of in a middle ground where we're becoming intentionally non-reactive to the anxiety anyway. But I there is a big difference. People that freeze and uh fight or flight like me, when I try to teach people like, okay, we got to sit down and learn to sit still here. I can't not pace and fidget. The freeze person will say, Well, yeah, well, we can move a little bit. No, no, I can't move. So the the argument that the fear will always make, no, I can't sit still, and the freeze person says, No, I can't move. You understand? I can't move.

SPEAKER_05 21:25

Exactly, but it's just difficult. You can, it's just more difficult. Uh, another uh example, if you're socializing, you're sat around a dinner table. My advice if you're a freezer is to when you are talking, and even though it's tricky, you know, use your hands, express yourself, look at people's concentrate on people's faces, engage. And there is something with that. Not not to turn into one of these dudes. But your nervous system, particularly when you're in a sympathetic state, will shift to parasympathetic. When it notices you are socializing with safe individuals. Yeah. And that and that can help go along as well. That doesn't mean compulsively go and run, find a stranger, and start talking to them because you want to regulate your nervous system. It means doing what non-anxious you would do. I'm sat here with my friends and family around the dinner table. I'm going to do what non-anxious me would is doing. Yeah. Earlier on, I strode up to the lake and like Terminator and said hello to the ducks. Now I'm around a dinner table and non-anxious me would probably be a bit more expressive and not be sat so rigidly. Uh I love the do what non-anxious you would do rule because it gives you um something to lean towards when you're in that fog of uncertainty and and and when you feel frozen.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah. I'm not going to come up with a plan on the fly, especially if you are a freezer, you know. So like, oh, I have to I have to think of a plan of action on the fly. Well, you can. So the but you know, fall falling back to simple instructions, like, I'm going to do the best to just do what I was doing as best I can. Here's where it gets, I think, difficult to say this to people and for people to hear it. Whether you're a freezer or a fight or flighter, your performance will not be great. So if you're sitting around a dinner table and you have a panic attack and you are a freezer and you feel like you don't you're not listening, you can't hear the words anymore, you're not participating in conversation, you're kind of sticking out a little bit, people are wondering what's wrong with you. Maybe. And I hate having to say that, but we don't get there is no strategy that whether you're a freezer or not, that says, here's what you do when you panic, and no one will know, and you will not be disruptive, and it will be a perfect experience that you don't have to worry about. Yeah. I mean, as you're doing the best you can to work through your freeze response at a birthday party, for instance, it might kind of look like you're struggling a little bit. There's nothing we can do about that. So be really careful about trying to find, well, what do I do when I freeze? Because everybody can see that I stop talking and that they'll know there's something wrong with me. They might notice that you're out of sorts a little bit. That's true. But guess what? We can handle that too. That's unpleasant, but we don't get a guarantee of never feeling unpleasant things. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 24:12

That's a tough one, but that'll move us on nicely to the fawn response in a bit because if you've got freeze and fawn, it's double whammy. Um, but I just wanted a to kind of find a final kind of comment on the freeze response is that I just had this funny imagery, like me and Drew go to the theatre, and I'm suddenly frozen with fear, and I have to get all the ushers to carry me out because I am so frozen and rigid, almost like rigor mortis, because I'm in freeze response. So I have to be carried out because I can't move. That's just not gonna happen. It doesn't happen. A lot of people in the freeze response often are afraid of driving anxiety as well, because they're like, What if I freeze behind the wheel? Doesn't happen. If that happened, you'd see vehicles veering off bridges and order all day, every day, every five minutes. No, you can still move. Just I'd reframe, cognitively reframe it from rather than freezing, I have just become uh more rigid. Yeah. Which still means I can do stuff.

SPEAKER_03 25:21

I'm slower at things that require higher cognitive function. And as ridiculous as it sounds, driving doesn't require, because driving is is it does require, that's true. But driving is something that we do so often. If you're a brand new driver, maybe there's a little bit more of the whole, like, well, if I freeze behind the wheel, I've only had my driver's license for two weeks. Okay, well, maybe because you're still developing that skill. But if you've been driving for 15 years, how many people, anxious people, have done the whole like, I well, I got home. I don't know how I got home. Yes, you do, like, because you're really good at driving and that becomes muscle memory, and we know what to do, and our bodies won't let us be dangerous. So you have to be careful about that sort of stuff. But I, you know, for me, my final comment on freeze would be like, even the free state, the free state is as unpleasant for you as the fight and flight state is for us fighter-flighters. And like, well, I don't have to fix it, but I have to fix my free state. Well, not necessarily. You'll you can move through that too. So definitely the state itself is not the danger.

SPEAKER_05 26:25

Yeah, fawn can be quite complex. We'll do another separate episode on it, but we'll talk a bit about it today. When with panic disorder, you have a panic attack and the amygdala remembers that experience, so it misinterprets the symptoms and feelings of panic and warns you if they arise. Um, same with agrophobia, you know, most agrophobia starts when we're outside somewhere or wherever, um, anywhere. But agrophobia, the amygdala, the threat response remembers where the panic ended. So important. We did this many moons ago on agrophobia. So if you're out and about and then oh, you rush back to your car, and then the panic ends in the car, the brain will then associate the car with oh well, this is a safe place. A lot, I know a lot of agrophobics that will go everywhere, but the car is the safe place.

SPEAKER_04 27:20

Right.

SPEAKER_05 27:20

Uh, the most common one is back home. So I'm back home, or they've had a panic attack in work and it's ended there. So the brain misinterprets where the panic ends as the safe place. That's agrophobia 101. That's monophobia 101. Yeah, well, my panic ended here, and now my because and my husband was with me. So the amygdala remembers that the husband is the safe person, they get the credit, the house got the credit, the car got the credit, everything got the credit for my anxiety passing because I I possibly couldn't have dealt with it myself. Yeah, absolutely not. We know that's not true. So that's what the threat response remembers there. With fawn, it remembers threat through experience. So if you grew up with a horrible mum, a nasty dad, or you were reprimanded, maybe it was abusive, I don't know. Maybe you've been in a horrible marriage, horrible relationship. Maybe you're a big one is if you're bullied at school or you're bullied in your workplace, maybe you're even being bullied now, you know. The amygdala, the threat response, will remember those experiences and associations much similar to the way it remembers other experiences. So this could be um pleasing authority. People with social anxiety will often have a raging fawn response where they kind of ruminate and catastrophize about social events before they've even started. During the event, they're not actually being themselves because they're performing, because the performance is part of the fawn response. Am I being good enough in the eyes of this person? That you're a fauna when you are at work and you your workload is so high, and your boss comes along and says, Can you do this for me? And your rational brain wants to go, No, I can't possibly do that. But your fawn response, because the amygdala is so powerful, will say, Yes, sure. You find it difficult to say no because what the anxiety wants to convince you over anything is to please this person, and that it can be absolutely exhausting. Um, I always recommend therapy for fawn response to understand the origins of it. I used to be a bit of a fauner, uh, because I was bullied in school, um, bullied for being charming and good looking and having a great dress sense, and uh but but I remember taking that into workplaces as well, and and and it almost like the workplace felt like the schoolyard because older amygdala doesn't change. Amygdala. Everything else changes, thinking, brain, personality, double that. But it's like, oh, what's that there? And I remember associations with the loud joker, and I'm like, oh, are they gonna come for me? Uh I don't get that now, but like it can be a very powerful part of your threat response. And like I said, we'll do a really kind of in-depth exploration of this. Drew, you strike me as someone who doesn't struggle with fawn response.

SPEAKER_03 30:28

That's true. I know I'm a walking stereotype in some instances, but no, I've never struggled with a fawn response. But interestingly, what I what I do hear of people who do struggle with fawn, in the context of this sort of stuff like panic disorder and agoraphobia, the person who spends most of their time trying to make sure that the people they deem as their safer support people are happy, taken care of. They're not upsetting them, they're they're always in lockstep with them, they're not trying to, they're trying to make sure that everything's cool. Because when I need this person to save me, I need to make sure that they're going to be there for me. I cannot have them mad at me. I cannot have them think badly of me. I'm going to overcompensate for the fact that there are restrictions in my life that are anxiety-based. I know that like he or she is sometimes out of patience with me. And oh no, my partner is really upset with me today because I canceled another dinner date or whatever it is. And this is freaking me out because I need that. I need to know that person is there to save me. And so a little bit of that like constantly placating and people pleasing to make sure the safe person will be there on demand.

SPEAKER_05 31:33

But that was its function.

unknown 31:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 31:35

That's the foreign response's function. If you think about our ancestors, and I write about this in and how does that make you feel? And if you're charming, good looking, got a great great dress sense, you've probably read it. And what happens is when we were in tribes, uh, and nomads and and walking around, and you have to be part of the tribe and the collective to survive. Yeah, it doesn't matter if the leader of the tribe had a differing political opinion to you or whatever, you had to please the overseers of the tribe, otherwise, you were banished. And you ain't gonna survive on your own because everyone has their own different roles there, and it's embedded in our brains and our DNA to be social creatures because we could survive as a collective. So when there's so much comparison there, it's literally the same part of your brain that's never evolved. If you struggle with monophobia, and oh my god, I don't feel safe if this person who looks after me, you know, leaves. Because at a really kind of old, ancient level in your brain, well, that's that that's the person of the tribe that's keeping me safe. And if they leave, yeah, then I'm not safe anymore. And and that's what it was designed for. And then it goes on. It's a bit different though when you're responding to emails and and and out with drinks and friends and all that stuff, but it still fires off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

I mean some of the most interesting stuff out there. I try, I read a whole lot. I love that I'm getting so much into anthropology and the the mix between psychology, psych sociology, and anthropology, because you can start to see those those mechanisms and how they still exist today, even though, yeah, we do need them sometimes, that's true, even in the modern world, but then they get turned in as weapons against ourselves because they are mostly not needed like they were 50,000 years ago. But we still got them.

SPEAKER_04 33:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Like we are going faster societally than biology can keep up with.

SPEAKER_05 33:39

So there's no need to turn it off. That's why. That's why not really. Yeah, and also we're faster than now it can develop, but there's no real written need to turn it off because it's not really affected us growing as a species. Same as with like your appendix or your or what's the other gallbladders and things like that. It's like we might as well just keep producing them. It's like I don't know, it's like it's like Ford.

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Keep making Ford. Yeah, like do not underestimate the power of the gallbladder workers' union, too. Like they want to keep their jobs, like they have a very powerful lobby. We ain't eliminating the gallbladder in the appendix. That's jobs, man. We're we gotta make those things.

SPEAKER_05 34:23

Exactly. But with your anxiety disorder, it's like oh, this it's gone inwards on itself and folded in on itself, and now it's misinterpreting itself as the threat. Yeah, and that's really annoying for the one in five of us where we felt feel really debilitated. But interestingly, I wouldn't take back of an anxiety disorder because I'd learned so much more about me, yeah, uh, my brain, my relationships, my empathy, and I've actually learned a lot from it. So whilst I wouldn't wish a panic attack amongst my worst effort, I would. I so wouldn't wish a panic attack amongst my worst. Yeah, don't even lie. I mean, I guess uh yeah, yeah. I hope they're having one right now. Uh, but in general, but but in general, it's like, yeah, actually, interestingly, I have evolved emotionally whatever from the experience, even though for the years I had it, it was debilitating and crippling.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

Yeah. Interestingly, you were talking about like, well, I had a lot of foreign responses, Josh, but then you were emphatic and saying, Well, I don't have it now. Yeah, well, why do you think you don't have it now? Like, you can't only say it was your anxiety, disorder, recovery, but I bet that that contributed. Like, in part of that work, you start to learn more about yourself and like how you're relating to yourself and your own fears and your own thoughts. And like, yeah, I don't have foreign response anymore because I learned and grew and changed.

SPEAKER_05 35:50

Well, and also if you're a fauner, you that's also dictated by this guy.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

It's Craig, the critic.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

Um, because it affects your self-esteem, your self-confidence. You know, it's better to just make sure everyone, everyone's happy. What I want comes last because I'd rather feel safe than kind of go with my, as Maslow said, my actualized self because it's a lot of effort. And I think what we try to encourage on disordered and is this like, no, you can be you as well and overcome an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_03 36:24

Yeah, 100%. Should we move on to some like community wins here? Liberally sprinkle the episode with Did It Anyways. Yeah, let's have a liberal sprinkle. Let's listen to the first one. This is from Aubrey.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

Hi, Drew, hi Josh.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

Whoa, start that again, Aubrey.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Hi Josh, hi Drew.

SPEAKER_05 36:42

That's better.

SPEAKER_00 36:43

This is Aubrey calling from the Bay Area in California. Feel free to use my name. I just wanted to share with you guys in the community a did it anyway that has me feeling really proud. I've been struggling for several years with driving anxiety following a panic attack behind the steering wheel. And over the weekend, I found myself in a situation where I needed to drive on the highway with my kids in the car and without another adult next to me, which has been hard for me in the recent past. And not only was I able to uh go into this task with kind of an attitude of bring it on, uh, I found myself able to drive in the fast lane and was almost a little disappointed when the adrenaline rush I was anticipating was smaller than it maybe has been in the past. I was looking forward to giving my chance, my brain a chance to um build a really strong new neural pathway and um to do exactly what I'd been doing, which was just keep on driving, uh fully confident that that I got this. That felt really good. So I wanted to thank you guys for the podcast. Um I'm taking the credit, and I know that I wouldn't be where I am now without the education and perspective and compassion that you guys share here. So thank you.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Well done, Aubrey.

SPEAKER_05 38:13

Absolutely smashed it. I love that as well. I I've taken the credit for it, and so you should. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 38:19

Yeah, it's always nice to hear that stuff. Um, I love this. She speaks directly to, I think one of our best episodes, the attitude shift. You'd have to go to disorder.fm and search. I don't know what number it is. When she says, I was really looking forward to like the challenge and giving my brain a chance to learn something new. That is the attitude shift that says, Oh, I'm not doing this to try to just make it through without being anxious and oh, I hope it does, I hope I don't panic. This is I'm doing this to learn. I'm willing to experience this so I can learn and get better from it. So excellent job.

SPEAKER_05 38:51

Yeah, it sounds like you've got everything in place. They're all pretty well done. And thanks for sending that in.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Mm-hmm. We have a written Did It Anyway, and then an audio. How about I read the written one? Okay. This was from our friend Mike, who says it's okay to use his name. Hey guys, feel free to use my name. Two years ago, I suffered a nervous breakdown, which led me to eventually being diagnosed with OCD. I'd been a sufferer of anxiety for many years, but following the birth of my first son, everything just spiraled. Uh, at the time, I was a professional gigging musician, but due to the OCD and anxiety, I ended up canceling all of my gigs. Over the last two years, I've dipped my toe back in the waters of music, doing an open mic or a small gig here and there. And this week I finally made the decision to go back to gigging professionally as part of a function band. This is a high-pressure job, but one that I used to really enjoy. And let's be honest, it's a great ego boost. Love that. Uh safe to say, I feel anxious about performing again at that level, and my mind is full of what ifs. What if I can't cope? And what if the anxiety and OCD take over again, etc.? But using the ERP techniques I learned through therapy, I plan to use the exposures as a way to address that anxiety. I'm excited to get back to it and finally enjoy that buzz of being on stage again. Well done, Mike.

SPEAKER_05 40:09

Yeah, I love it. Brilliant. I love the bit about what ERP taught him as well.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

Yeah. You know what I love the most about this? First of all, congrats on getting back on stage. That's really awesome. And but the idea that, like, we how many times do we hear that? But what about the thought that I'm never going to get better? Mike is clearly illustrating that he learned, oh, I'm thinking a thought that disturbs me. How do I do it? How do I deal with that? He didn't, he's no longer treating what if I never get better or what if it comes back as a special thought or a prediction. He knows what to do with it. Yeah. Well done, Mike. Big fan. Big fan. Um, a function band, I guess, like a wedding band or something like that, playing at uh social events and things.

unknown 40:47

That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Yeah. I respect anybody who can make their living playing music. So we have one more audio from uh what is it? Tessa Tessa. Tessa. The start of something beautiful. She says it's a a uh student in many ways, so should we use the name and let's play it? Hydro and Dodge, my name is uh notice Hydrew and Josh, just saying.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

Hydreen Dosh, my name is Teos. Feel free to use my name because it's a pseudonym. I want to share with you guys a did it anyway of something that I am super, super proud of that may seem small to somebody, but is a huge accomplishment in my eyes. I suffer from agoraphobia and panic disorder following a really, really bad ear infection that I resolved uh last year, but I had somatic symptoms that keep reappearing. So I kept thinking that it was, you know, a reoccurrence of this ear infection when in fact it was just an accumulation of stress and anxiety after I went through doctor after doctor, and you know, they they checked everything out and said that like you're fine and no one could figure out what was wrong with me. Um, my physical therapist is actually the one who mentions you should probably try CBT. And I remember saying to him, I was like, I have nothing to be stressed about. Little did I know. It uh was like a monster that was uh slowly looming in the back, ready to consume me to the point that I am today. Anyway, my did it anyway is for the past couple of weeks, um, I've been going to CBT therapy and I've been doing FaceTime, and I've been listening to both Disordered and Drew's podcast. And I had all of this knowledge of what I have to do, but I never really executed it. So today I just kind of figured I was like, you know what? Today is the day I need to stop putting it off. And today was the first day that I drove to CBT. It's only a mile away, which is not that far. But as I was driving there, my heart was racing, pounding. I almost turned around the car a bunch of times. I felt awful during it. But once I got there, my face my my therapist FaceTimed me thinking that I was gonna be home and I was crying and shaking, um, but happy saying that I'm in the parking lot, and she ran out and she hugged me. So small steps, but I'm very happy that I was able to drive to therapy for the first time today. So thanks, guys, for all that you do, truly.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Another one knocked us out of the park. Amazing. I know, so good.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

I love how the therapist came out and was really proud as well.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

It's like a super like Hollywood moment, you know.

SPEAKER_05 43:21

Yeah, and it's not small stuff. I think that's a huge step, and uh well done. And hopefully uh things continue really well, both with you uh and working with the therapist and and listening to the principles of what we talk about. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

It's interesting how this person points out, and I think you gotta hang on to this when if you're listening, that both of two multiple things can exist at the same time inside of us. She was shaking and crying because she was afraid and probably was still in the middle of all that adrenaline and cortisol, but at the same time, she was also really happy and felt proud and accomplished and like I did it. So remember, we can feel a lot of different things at the same time. So give yourself a chance to feel multiple stuff. Fear, and what else can I conjure up while I do this? Who knows? Wise words.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Thanks, thank you for you for tuning in. Um, we're here every Friday. Follow us on social media. I'm I'm anxiety Josh, Drew is the dot anxious.truth. Um, thank you for the recent reviews, etc. And we'll catch you soon. Go easy on yourself. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next week.