Anxiety And The Fear of Losing Control (Episode 035)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

I will lose control and say things that I don't want to say, or I will do things that I don't want to do. What if I do things I don't want to do? Um, that doesn't happen. I'm in a movie and I get up in the middle and I run out because I'm screaming and crying. It's the thoughts triggered by the threat response that make it feel real. It will overwhelm my ability to cope, and therefore I will become hysterical. The part of I will lose control is it will never end.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Because there must be a reason why you're feeling this way. Ah, that's it. What if you're going crazy?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Terrified, my body is doing all these things. These thoughts are racing in my head. Now I have to make meaning of that since I can't find an obvious meaning. And I'll interpret it as death, insanity, slipping away, losing control, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Um, we start behaving in a just in-cased way, which keeps us in the cycle.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 35 entitled Anxiety and the Fear of Losing Control. I am Drew Linsolata, a grad student in clinical mental health counseling, getting ever closer to being a licensed therapist in New York State in the US of A. I'm an author, a podcaster, and an educator on the topic of anxiety disorders. I'm doing a really long intro for myself. It's super annoying while Josh waits. And uh, I'm a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for many, many years.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

And I'm Josh Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, uh, on social media. I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, author and previous sufferer. Welcome, dude.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Today we're talking about fear of losing control, probably like a core fear.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah, it's a big one. Um, we were going through our inboxes today and listening to the wonderful voice notes, uh, or the did it anyways, the questions, and going through as many emails uh as we can. Uh, we really appreciate you sending them in. Um, so if you do want to send something in, just go on disordered.fm. Uh we came across one though uh this uh this morning that uh we thought we'd focus today's topic on, and it's uh it's a common one and it's something that I can relate to personally. Um let's hear what this person has to say. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 2:08

Oh hey guys, so been listening to the podcast and really, really enjoy everything you guys do for the community and everybody that listens. It's such a great help. Um, one of the things that I really have been struggling with on my recovery is the constant repetitive obsessing over a scary thought of possible self-harm or hurting myself or doing things that I'm gonna lose control or things I can't control. And it happens all the time, daily, and I keep trying to not fight, but accept these thoughts and go through it, but it just gets so scary and overwhelming. And I'm kind of hoping you guys can maybe talk a bit more about willfully accepting those thoughts, even as scary as they are. I have no intent on acting on them. They were suggested, you know, someone cared and reached out. Once a guy starts thinking about it, it kind of took over for me. So anything you could do to help and uh give a bit of guidance, I greatly appreciate it and keep up the good work, guys. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 3:12

All right, what do you think? It's a good question. Good question, ties into today's topic. Fear of losing control. Um fear of losing control is something that's at the core of most anxiety disorders. Um, this sounds like a lot like um a theme of of OCD, I'm not diagnosing you, but one of the common themes of OCD is something called harm OCD or self-harm OCD. A lot different to um the want to hurt oneself as a result of severe and prolonged depression. Uh it usually presents as what if I do that? What if I get to a point where I get to this situation where I harm myself? Or what if I just lose control and harm myself? Um, and so yeah, thank you for that question. Um, it's a common um theme of OCD that uh usually prep propped up by compulsions like avoiding things, avoiding sharp objects, avoiding doing anything where you may lose control and do that. But also ultimately it's the thoughts triggered by the threat response that make it feel real. Um, we start behaving in a just-in-case way, which keeps us in the cycle.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah, that's one of those fears, uh, whether it's particularly a self-harm theme or or not, that leads you to not want to be alone. You know, we did a monophobia episode not too long ago. And for me, the expression of that was that was part of the monophobia for me. Like if I do get to the point where I lose control and might do something that I absolutely do not want to do, but I'll be so anxious and beside myself that I will snap and and and lose control, I needed somebody around who would save me from that. So I think if that loss of control is a big driver of that, I'm afraid to be alone thing.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Can be, but on the flip side, also people with with that uh will want to be alone because they feel that deep down there's a part of them that that's dangerous in some way. Yes. What if this not point not not one percent thing is true and I can't be around friends and loved ones, friends and loved ones. So uh as a compulsive safety behavior, they may be like, no, I need to stay away. Um, I know there was I know someone from many years ago um who actually ended up moving out of their family home because they used to struggle with harm O C D. Yeah, afraid of and it started by take you know removing all the the the sharp objects, and then it got to the point where you know, even like tape and rope from the garage was got was was was binned, uh, and to the point where that's no, I'm I feel like I'm a danger. And also this person was not a danger, they were struggling with intrusive thoughts, uh, and the fear of losing control. Um, so it's important to note that no matter what your anxiety disorder is or how it presents, fear of losing control is usually at the core of a lot of of presentations. Um, how does it present for people with panic and agoraphobia?

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Well, I mean, I think to along those lines, you know, it's talking about it could drive the I don't want to be alone because I might be, I get so beside myself I lose control and need help. But the flip side of that is I'm afraid I'm going to make a scene or embarrass myself or make a fool of myself. So I want to be alone because if I lose control and I start screaming and throw myself on the floor and I can't stop, I don't want anybody to see that because that would be embarrassing or shameful and I don't want to do that. Um, so I think it it shows itself in the sub-themes of that. We talked about the harm theme that comes along with OCD is I will lose control and say things that I don't want to say, or I will do things that I don't want to do that will be looked upon as shameful or embarrassing or wrong, uh, or I will run out of a place that I don't want to run out of, and it would be really embarrassing and disruptive if I got up in the middle of church is a common one, or I'm at the theater, I'm in a movie, and I get up in the middle and I run out because I'm screaming and crying. That would be horrible. Uh, there's so many ways that lose control is interpreted. What if I lose control?

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah, and I think straight out from from the bat there, you you said, you know, uh I might what if I do things I don't want to do?

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Um, that doesn't happen. It's always always it becomes conflated with what if I feel things I don't want to feel.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Well, yeah, you're gonna feel things you don't want to feel, but does that translate to what if I do things I don't want to do? No, no, no. Actually, you always have agency in your choices when it comes to anxiety and panic. Um, so don't let the very loud, intrusive thoughts convince you, oh, you're gonna lose control, you know, you're gonna do something silly, you're gonna be inconsolable and have to be restrained by 50 people. Um, that doesn't um apply because you don't do the things you don't want to do. You actually make that choice to do that, albeit under duress, yeah. But you you still make those choices. You're not one of the biggest fears I I hear is, and this applied to me, was like I'd visualize how I was, my anticipatory anxiety would visualize how I was in a situation. I suddenly become a fly on the wall, and then I'm just witnessing me do things that I'm choosing not to do because the anxiety's got so much and the thoughts have become felt so real that I just you know running around windmilling, beating people up, screaming, wiping feces on the wall, being dragged away. Uh no, that just doesn't happen. That's just Wednesday morning and you're off. That's that's eating out at the local uh local uh carvery near me. Do you have carveries near where you are?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

I guess we would call them like steakhouses here.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

Uh kind, yeah, we have steakhouses here, but the Sunday roast is a big thing here. Oh um, and there's place restaurants where you can go for a carvery where you go out with your plate and you get like three different meats, and then you've roast vegetables and sprouts and gravy and sauce and all that stuff. And and the aim is to get as much on your plate as possible to maximize the money's worth. And you've had about 10 weeks worth of food in like one sitting and you sat and you can't move. But in these places on a Sunday, there's like screaming, there's plates flying, children crying, someone's giving birth, someone's going, it's absolute chaos. Uh yeah, that's a segue. But even in that environment, you're not going to lose control. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

I it's that we always come back to that whole idea that like I'm incapable of coping. It will overwhelm my ability to cope, and therefore I will become hysterical or I will become inconsolable. Uh, part of I will lose control is it will never end, I think is a bit of a manifestation of it. I will lose control. I won't be able to bring myself back ever, and I'll be in this state, if not permanently, for a very, very long time, which would seem terrifying. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah, um back to the paradox too, that of course, the most the more you try to hang on, the longer you will perpetuate that, at least in an undulating state, you know, a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Yeah. Um it's it's possible to go back to being on the hamster wheel, but again, you always have agency in that. Oh, I'm back to square one. Well, not really. You can't unlearn everything you've learned, but you're back on the hamster wheel. But that's not the same as going back to that horrendous dark place because what makes that horrendous dark place possible is you didn't know what was happening. You had no idea, you had you had no metacognitive awareness, you had no psychoeducation, you had no evidence that you can come out of these anxious episodes. Whereas this time you can. You've got all that evidence that your brain does remember. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yeah, practice. You have a skill set that you didn't have before. Maybe you weren't even aware that those were skills that you could use. Um, maybe you didn't have a community around you that was showing you their successes. So there's a ton of reasons why you you can't always you can't there is no just I'll lose control and go back to the beginning again.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah, exactly. Uh tie often ties into dementophobia, which is the fear of going crazy. Did you ever have that?

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I never, you know, it sometimes it felt like that could happen, but that was never a common theme for me. Uh, the fear of a psychotic break or the permanent really, it was my like biggest one. Yeah, that's top top two, death and insanity, I think, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Yeah, but because the threat response, the amygdala, it would often say, like, where's the threat? Where's the threat? Is it there? No, is it there? No, and around me is safe, my environment's safe. So then it just suggests with alongside with my cognitive brain, I don't know, what if what if it's you? What if the problem's you? Yeah. What if there's something horrendous, you know, that's kind of erupting under the surface because there must be a reason why you're feeling this way. Ah, that's it. What if you're going crazy? It feels real because all these symptoms are weird, uh, and these thoughts are loud and convincing. Oh well, yeah, that's it. And my brain upped on that for years.

SPEAKER_02 12:14

Yeah. I for me, I think it wasn't so much the like the definition that we most might all agree on on like insanity of some kind or going crazy, but the DPDR, depersonalization, that derealized thing, that dissociated feeling, to me felt like I was going to lose control and slip out of, I don't know, even know what. I know we've talked about this where it's going to disintegrate or slip away. And that was a control thing too. I have to hang on. I have to hang on. And I think you're right. It's interesting because we try to make meaning from the state that we are in. I'm I'm terrified. My body is doing all these things, these thoughts are racing in my head. Now I have to make meaning of that since I can't find an obvious meaning. And I'll interpret it as death, insanity, slipping away, losing control, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 12:58

Absolutely. Making meaning out of something.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

It is the basis of like a lot of act acceptance and commitment therapy, the whole relational frame theory thing where it's like the worst thing that ever happened to us as a species was language, because then we start to we our brains turn on themselves. We try to make meaning where there's no meaning to be had. We overuse that skill.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah, absolutely absolutely. Um, oh, I love that. Well, let's do one on relational frame and an act.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

We'll lose all of our listeners in one episode. It's gonna be great. Well, no, that's interesting to me. It is super interesting to me, clearly, you too.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

But we can make it interesting. We'll put in some sound effects and some silly things, yeah, you know, because that's that's ultimately why people are tuning in. Um, is to hear poor core levels.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, really bad production and like horrible juvenile jokes. That's why they do it. Yeah, the other thing, because that meaning making, I think, is that is a core part of a lot of this, especially for folks that are excessive ruminators or they're dealing with that sort of thing, I might lose control. So we can interpret that also as like I ruminate to maintain control. So that's another way to look at the loss of control fear.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Yeah, and when you look at every subtype of OCD, the fear often comes first, preceded by the thought. And because that lens of threat and intensity and everything feels doubtful, because that lens is already there, yeah, that thought suddenly appears more real. Yet you ask anyone with OCD who's had a theme that's moved on to something else. I always ask them, I say, you know, that old theme used to have that you spent months and months and months ruminating and obsessing over. What does it feel like when you have that thought now? Well, I've not really thought about it. Well, bring it up now. And they're like, Yeah, I don't really feel anything. Because the threat response has moved on. So going back to making meaning out of things, well, this must be real because my threat response suggests it's real and I'm full of doubt and it feels real. You know, not necessarily, not necessarily. Thoughts are just thoughts, but also this thought is particularly loud because the anxious response is trying to persuade you that hey, you know, maybe there is some danger here.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

I think that that same rule applies, or the same concept applies, you know, certainly in OCD and health anxiety is a related condition for sure. But even for people with panic disorder, agoraphobia, that sort of stuff, you the scariest anxiety symptom is the one that you care about the most today. So, you know, and for me, that was so like, oh, it was super fixated on my heart for a long, long time. Then it became my breathing, then it became dizziness. And I'm like, oh yeah, remember when you were so afraid of your heart, then it was back around in my heart again. So most people want up, they'll be like, you know, what's the scariest symptom for you? Oh, it's my heart. Yeah, but what was the scariest symptom two months ago? Oh, that's right. It was it was my visual disturbance. And they realized like, oh, my my scariest symptom rolls through different themes and changes over time. Yeah, it's almost like your brain will refuses to accept. Like, okay, reality tells me that my heart is okay. It's not a heart attack, so I better find some other interpretation. If it's not that, it must be something else. I'm suffocating. Let's go with that one, says James Anigala. Yeah, let's go with that one for a few months.

SPEAKER_03 16:20

Yeah, I I had one actually the other day. I was last couple of nights actually, lying in bed, and it's an OCD trait, but like I'm just aware of my heartbeat. I don't think it's gonna stop. Yeah, I'm just hate just up just up like fixating on it until I compassionately stepped in and went, you do realize that you are fixating on this now. Oh yeah. Yeah, the same heartbeat that's been there since you fell out of your mother's womb. Uh, it's the same thing. You know, now we can go down a ruminative hole here, or we can take our attention external or just allow your brain to go somewhere else. I was like, Yeah, great. And then I fell asleep, and I was like, Yeah. Whereas years ago, that would have been like, oh my god, yeah, what if this becomes a thing?

SPEAKER_02 17:05

That's up all night or fixated for days, right?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, absolutely. So uh that again, that willful tolerance of just let let it be there. Yeah. Um, yeah, I've often had the fear of losing control, uh doing public speaking, being in a place where behind the wheels a big one, isn't it? Absolutely. It's one of the biggest fears that drives uh that drives driving anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 17:29

Yeah, yeah. Because it seems practical in the driving sense. Like that fear seems entirely justified. But if and if I lose control, if I lose control in my living room, uh, you know, yeah, it would be bad. But if I lose control behind the wheel of a 4,000-pound machine that's doing 70 miles an hour, I'm not only gonna hurt me, the people in the car, but people around me. So that fear will argue on behalf of itself all day. When we hear it every day.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Oh, yeah, the stakes are high. Uh yeah, but uh the amount of clients that I'd like. Yeah, but I can't control my arms, I can't control my legs, it's not safe. I'm like, okay, show me. You know, and you see them behind the cars like you are you're more in control than you think. Yeah, yeah. It feels like you're not in control, but actually you're very hyper-alert, and you're probably a lot safer driving than the person who's got up at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., doesn't care, half asleep, daydreaming. No, you're you're the you're a mere cat behind the wheel. You're looking out for dangers and being cautious. You're actually probably safer to drive.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Those high stakes uh for me that was I can't not only I can't be alone, I can't be alone with my kids. My kids were small at the time when I was struggling the most. And the scariest thing was being alone, scarier than that was being alone with them. Because what if I what if I suddenly come to the realization that I don't actually love them or even know them? And then I might hurt them and like, oh, talking about mistakes.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

That's a common one, isn't it? Very common. Uh what if I do that? Or what if I'm giving them my anxiety? What if I'm through through uh, you know, by being anxious around them, what if they're getting ill too? Yeah, you know, uh that's the one I always like, no, they're not. You're all right. If anything, you can you can model to them, like, yeah, I'm anxious, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah, I think it's one of the reasons why people try to hide their anxiety from their kids or even the people that they care about, because I can't let people see me out of control. Again, it's the out of control thing. Yeah. Let's talk for a second about the because I know, and if you've listened to this podcast and you've answered, asked this question of 70,000 people and heard the answer 70,000 times, let's let this be your 70,000 and first and last time, maybe, if you can help it. The path from super high anxiety to I will get so anxious, it will break my brain. So the loss of control is like it will literally break me and drive me into a state of permanent mental illness or incapacitation or insanity. People are convinced often, even though they'll they'll hear us say that doesn't happen, okay, cool. And then two hours later they're Googling it again. Yeah. Yeah. Is there a path? Is there is that a path that that like in clinical work?

SPEAKER_03 20:09

No. I mean, I suppose it's possible, but not from a panic attack. I suppose if you're subjected to some like acute, horrendous trauma, right, and you have a genetic predisposition, then yeah, there's a very tiny possibility. But having a panic attack when you're sat on the bus that gets that will get to the point that where you can't no, that just does not happen. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm I'm talking, you know, you uh opening scene to gladiator kind of stuff where you're like, oh my god, you know, I have nothing left but revenge, you know. Uh it's like yeah, exactly. Um, no, and even then you you don't realize how much you can actually tolerate. I just put that as a disclaimer, like, you know, is it theoretically possible? Yes. Is it possible just bec from having a panic attack because you're trying to walk around the supermarket? No, yeah, it doesn't work like that at all. Um, if anything, you've been dealing with so much stress, whatever it does not get to that point. Yeah, it takes a lot to break like a human a lot. And this doesn't even get anywhere close.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Yeah, it's not even close. And interestingly, people will look for that, then that confirmation bias kicks in and they're pounding away at Google furiously looking at the internet. And unfortunately, nobody posts stories about how they didn't lose control. You only hear the stories of the person who was literally in that extreme, you know, and that comes out of maybe World War I, they used to call it shell shock back then. Such extreme duress in an extreme crisis situation that did not resolve that, yes, they they had some sort of incapacitation that may have lasted a while. But no one no one ever posts I had a panic attack and and I didn't go crazy. They only post I had a panic attack and I was afraid. Was going to go crazy. So that fear of control, and you look for confirmation, you're never going to get it because of the negative reporting bias.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Yeah. I can hear people's brains already now, like, yeah, but but what it surely there's a limit to the amount of panic attacks you can have. Right. Surely there's a I've been anxious for so long that maybe I'm at the precipice and that my jug is about to overflow, and that's the point where I'm going to lose control. No, if anything, I'd flip down its head. Yeah. You've had all this time to practice, and actually you've been kind of desensitized to it slightly. If anything, you're going the other way. Yes, it's cyclical and repetitive and annoying, but no, you're you've actually countlessly told the brain I can experience high amounts of anxiety and not lose control. The only thing that stays there is the amygdala and the brain going, Yeah, but what if you can't?

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Well, what it's looking for that threat and combining with that meaning-making capability that can go awry on us. Like, well, reality, and I I've talked in you know my old podcast about that, the refusal to accept the lesson that reality shows you. Panic attack after panic attack, and I come out the other side. But instead of interpreting it as reality is showing me that it can't hurt me, I will try to find meaning and a threat because my brain needs to find a threat. And looking at my brain as like a piece of metal, if I keep bending it again and again and again, it'll it'll fatigue, and then sooner or later I can break it. But that's but reality is literally showing you that that is not what's happening. You've been resilient the whole time.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Yeah. Yeah, but I want to and you're not a piece of metal either. You're a piece of spaghetti. Yeah. Designed to be to do that. You're malleable, extremely malleable.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Incredible, like the most amazingly engineered bags of meat ever. Like, I mean, maybe somewhere else in the universe, but like if that's what isn't that on your dating profile. If I ever get on a dating site, that's exactly an amazing bag of meat. The most amazingly engineered bag of meat. Well, see what if I get the right swipes or left, whichever one's a good one. It's a good expression. There's a PhD dissertation right there. Yeah. I like that.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

What a great sentence.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Let's talk about we talk about choice for a second. Also, I think it's there's that that thing where like I don't have I've had one person who insisted for quite a long time because of the driving anxiety, the fear of losing control, that the fact that when he would get afraid, he would slam on the brakes, do 30 miles an hour on the motorway, and has been you know reprimanded by law enforcement. Like, this is not safe. You can't do 30 miles an hour on the motorway, on the highway. Like, this is not okay. And his assertion was see, that's I can't that's loss of control.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

No, you chose to do that, yeah. You know, albeit under duress, but you didn't lose control, you did not suddenly observe yourself from third person right making those choices, you know. And you were aware of that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:51

You're and you're aware awareness at some point, awareness kicks in, right? So yeah, I'm doing that now.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Uh that's different. That's not losing control. That's again confirmation bias with the anxious anxiety, the anxious anxiety is going, see, there's evidence, but actually, if you picked it apart, no, you kind of chose to do that, you know. Okay, um, also, it's it's good to know actually address like fear of losing control can be an O C D theme in itself, and so these are people, and you need to we need to bring attention to the compulsions and safety behaviors because this is super important. Um, should we have like a little spitball to and fro? What what are the main behaviors that people with fear of losing control may do? And I'll start off number one a threat monitor, they will scan themselves.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

Oh, constantly. I'm gonna say removal of external threats like the knives or the scissors. That was me.

SPEAKER_03 25:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Observing mood fluctuations just in case they get too happy or too sad.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah, I'll add to that. If your fear is of self-harm, you are looking for low mood. If I am sad, uh oh. Because that self-harm might I might get so low that uh I do that thing. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Um constantly checking how you feel.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah. Um, predicting or trying to pre-visualize or pre-control the environment you're about to go in. I better Google the restaurant, look for pictures to see how close to the door I'm gonna be in case I lose control.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Avoiding stimulants like caffeine.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Oh, that's a really good one. Yeah, uh obsessing about sleep is a is a lose control issue too. If I don't sleep enough, I'm more likely to snap and lose control.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Yeah, I'm so delirious now because I've not slept. Go by check out our sleep episode, by the way, if if if that um uh resonates with you. Uh other ones, uh yeah, good reassurance seeking through Google.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Oh, yeah, just refusing to do things that they feel are too dangerous, high stakes like driving or being alone with your children.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Absolutely. There's so many. Um comparing constantly moods, so these people may compulsively have mood trackers. So they're like, again, if you've got disorder anxiety, often these things can be counterproductive, a bit like heart rate monitors and stuff like that. For you know, for the lame and boring normies, that's great for them. But for us, that it can be compulsive behavior. So yeah, oh well, yeah, I noticed that yesterday I felt like a five on my mood scale, but today I'm a three. Is this the sign of my imminent decline? Yeah, losing control slowly, like absolutely not. Yeah, you know, you know, so many variables put thought tracking in there too.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Mood tracking, sure, it's almost the same thing, but thought tracking, especially in the sort of the old days of CBT when you were encouraged to keep a thought record. Like, oh no, I had I had that thought like 15 times today, and yesterday I only had it 13 times. Uh-oh. Yeah. So thought tracking is the same thing. I'm gonna count my thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Avoiding vices, even though non-anxious us would enjoy them. So, for example, you know, uh I I hear people like, you know, I I I've cut out wine and and other recreational things. Um, like I used to enjoy, I don't know, uh smoking cannabis and things like that, which is fine. I'm not gonna debate whether that's good for you or not. You're a human, you're an adult, you can choose your own vices, but it's the avoidance of those just in case. Oh, I've had this thought and it feels scary, so I'm now gonna cut out having a glass of wine, even though non-anxious me enjoyed that. Yeah, now I'm stopping because that may make me lose control, or I'm gonna stop doing this other thing because it may make me lose control. I'm actually kind of like against that. You know, I'm not against like, you know, if someone's like, you know, I want to stop these things because I don't like them or whatever, or I'm stopping them because they actually help me to feel more relaxed, then I'm like, no, challenge that. Maybe don't don't drink, don't smoke. But if on the flip side, if your theme and obsession is, oh, I stopped drinking wine, I stopped drinking this, or I taking this stimulant, or having caffeine because that might make me lose control, that's also avoidance. So that's when you can set some fun homework. My therapist told me to go and have a glass of wine because I'm challenging this internal fear that I may lose control. And this makes me lose my inhibition, so it's actually an exposure in itself.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah, and it's so interesting how they can get interpreted too, because like if I drink a glass of wine, then my inhibition level goes down. My ability to be inhibited, I become more disinhibited. Some people drink wine because they want to be more social. I mean, that happens, right? Yeah. Other people use alcohol and things like that to sort of self-medicate. When I'm super anxious, I have two glasses of wine and I calm down. Yeah, that's what your challenge calm down, actually, in the in the sense of I might lose control is a benefit. You will be in a less anxious state, which makes less likely, or at least not as fixated on losing control. Flip it the other way, avoiding avoiding temptation things. If I fear that I will lose control, I won't want to be in any situation where I might be tempted to do that thing that I don't want to do, regardless of what it is. It might be uh, you know, a sexual thing, it might be a harm thing, it might be a financial thing. I can't I might lose control, so I won't go into those environments that would be dangerous or tempting me.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Yeah, but not feeling like I am fully in control. Yep, yep. I can't. Yeah, which is interesting. But it like even then, if you must see that as a safety behavior, because what you're saying is if I am completely neutral and can constantly and continuously threat monitoring, scanning, checking myself, compulsively seeing that and checking if I am still in control, that's counterproductive. You have to trust and willfully tolerate that actually, you know, I'm gonna be alright, you know. Um, I'm I'm just gonna trust that I'm not gonna do these things. Yeah, um, oh, there's another one I was gonna add to it. Avoiding things like TV, this is a common one, TV shows and movies where the characters um are in air quotes crazy, you know. Oh, like like serial killers and stuff like that. Oh no, I can't see anything like that because I might feed on that and it might make me lose control.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Who is um I'm looking right now, Anxiously balanced. Do you know Krista Reed on on Instagram? She's anxious. Here's a shout out to Krista Reed. Hey, Krista, on uh she's anxiously balanced on Instagram. She's an OCD specialist practicing in the Midwest, somewhere in the US. She does these really cool posts. I don't know how often she does them, where she'll do like, hey, if you have harm OCD, here's a bunch of movies for you to watch. Or sounds great. If you have relationship OCD, here's movies about affairs and infidelity, and like she does these whole things, they're really smart. And uh, you're right, but people will avoid those things. I can't. Oh, one flew over the cuckoo's nest. I can't read that book or watch that's about people in an in an insane asylum.

SPEAKER_03 32:08

Oh, yeah, and that's we get uh the amount of times we've got people to go watch Shutter Island, they're like, no, no, we can't. I'm like, oh yeah, go watch Shutter Island, yeah, or go watch something. Uh, what's the bad Ewan McGregor one? Uh no, James McAvoy one, sorry. Uh or is it split? You know, I got 37,000 personalities and they're all evil. Yeah, you know, like yeah, like no, actually not. Like, you know, you can look at these. Um, by the way, disclaimer, if you do have a um condition or disposition, like you can have multiple personalities, that's fine. That's different. That's not what I'm talking about. That's different to the fear of losing control, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:46

Memento is another one of those movies where the person can't remember, he lives at the it tries to remember, he only has like five minutes worth of short-term memory. That's another one that's triggering for people who fear that they will lose their memory or their mental capacity. Like then they wind up constantly trying to check. Do I remember my kids' names? How about now? How about now? How about now? Because I think they're going to lose control of their ability to remember or think.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Yes. Yes. That's a big one. That's a big one. Yeah. So the constant the compulsively testing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Is my brain working now, or have I lost control of it?

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah. And they often forget, like, actually, today's been a super stressful day, and you've not slept, and you've probably not eaten properly, and you're not hydrated. And oh no, I can't recall these things. Yeah, of course you can't. Some days I can't even remember my own name. Doesn't mean it's the first fear of losing control.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

I used to have um being in a really technical field like I was when I was struggling. I was, I mean, and this was not a good thing. If you're in a technical field, don't do what I did. I would work like outside of a lab environment. There was no test environment. Everything was you guys in techno, everything was a production environment for Drew. So I would configure networks on the flight. That's not okay. You're not supposed to do that. But I was really good at it and I wouldn't make mistakes. When I was struggling in the worst, I couldn't remember commands. I I lost all, I couldn't remember any of the commands for a Cisco router. Like I couldn't remember any of those, couldn't remember my passwords, couldn't remember IP addresses. And like I had a crazy long list of IP addresses in my head that I remembered just because I did. Whoa. And that all went away. Yeah, I'm ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

That's the first sign of insanity. Remembering IP addresses.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

I know, I mean, I probably knew hundreds of IP addresses and router names, and I knew all the commands, and I knew all my passwords. Password management, who needs that? What a nerd. Yeah, it was crazy. When I when I couldn't remember those things because I was under a very high cognitive load, I would interpret that as I'm losing my mind a little bit, or I'm losing my ability, I'm losing control. I can't do the things that I used to do. That was terrifying to me.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

So I think in a nutshell, like when you're anxious and in the anxious cycle, you're not going to feel like yourself. It doesn't mean anything about losing control. You're not going to lose control. If anything, the need for more of the illusion of control is often the problem. It's okay. You're what often we say that when you leave anxiety and anxious thoughts alone and allow your disordered anxious thoughts and disordered anxiety, when you leave it alone, surrender to it, willfully tolerate the symptoms and the uncertainty, and focus on doing what non-anxious you would do. You're trusting in the brain and body to bring you back to a state of homeostasis. But when you're getting involved and messing about with it and trying to rush, you know, tinker and configure with it and trying to find the miracle thought, the miracle solution, the shortcut, and the way out of it. You keep that hamster wheel going. One of the scary anxious thoughts is what if I lose control? And guess what? The anxious response has one because it needs it wants your attention and it will find something. And we've spoken a lot in this episode about making meaning. Well, that's a scary one to get your attention and suddenly make meaning from it. But you're not. If you're listening to this now, you may have had loads of panic attacks or intense bouts of anxiety, and yet you're still sat here, compass mentors, listening to us goofballs talk about it. Just because you probably may have another anxiety attack in the future or bout of anxiety. And guess what? It may sound convincing, but odds on, you know, it's that's not going to be the one, uh, and nor is the next 100 or 200 or whatever, or hopefully none, you know, but there we are.

SPEAKER_02 36:21

It's funny, this theme leads us to another episode that we'll do maybe the next one. For for our gad friends and our excessive ruminators and overthinkers and warriors in the room. We're talking today about like losing control in the moment, but there's that whole safety theme or control and comfort theme of if I think and ruminate and worry, I'm controlling. That's long term, right? That's a long-term habit that drives that constant anxious state of, but I but I think to control, I have to plan, I have to simulate, I have to go over and go over and go over. I think I might find an answer or control in that. So we'll talk about that too one day. That's a longer term, that's a different kind of control, but it's similar, I think.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

We have a did it anyway that embraces today's um topic, which is um, I think it's a driving anxiety one. Should we uh should we play it, DJ? Yeah, let's do it. Sure. DJ Drew, let's let's play it.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Juliana. You can say my name. I've had anxiety most of my life. Only recently, in the past year or two, have I really committed to doing exposures and just creating an atmosphere of acceptance. And your podcast has been really instrumental in that. So thank you so much. Um, yesterday I had to go for a long drive. And that has been historically triggering for me. When I'm alone behind the wheel, I start thinking about being alone and not being able to access help, blah, blah, blah. So yesterday, when I started feeling anxious, I thought I should listen to Disordered's podcast episode about driving anxiety to calm myself down. But instead, I was like, no, that's a band-aid. I'm gonna do what I love to do in the car, which is to play music and sing. So I did that instead. I made it to my destination, and it was great. On the way back, I felt fine, I think, because of realizing how okay I was. So thank you so much for everything you do.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Huge round of applause for that one. That's incredible. Um, and ultimately, what I learned from that is that by not listening to us, you get better.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

Yeah, yes, I can get behind that all day long.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

That's true. Uh no, well, that's brilliant. No, I can do this. I want the credit for this. So you obviously listen to the getting the credit episode. I want this. Um yeah, okay, I I could listen to them, but it's a band-aid. No, I've got this. I want 100% of the credit for this. And you did. You nailed it, which is excellent. And it also leads on to today's question that that um was sent in.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

Uh Drew, can let me do the other did it anyway that we wanted to read out before we do the question because it's along the same lines, the same thing. Oh, okay, cool. Let's do it. So this one is um, I'm gonna read this one without any music, so it's gonna be dry. Sorry, guys. This is from Amar or Aymar. I'm sorry, Amar, I don't, I butchered your name, and you asked us to use your name so you could be famous, and I completely ruined your fame. But anyway, this is a good one from Aymar or Amar. I used to rate my progress based on stuff I can do now, things I am doing in the distance from home. That has caused me plenty of unneeded setbacks because I did not see that our comfort zone during recovery is actually fluid, that we should never focus on the things that we are now able to do. The goal during recovery should always be to experience panic, anxiety, and fear no matter where we are, and to practice with it. If we look at it that way, then there's no such thing as a setback. In the past, when I would have a setback, I used to just surrender and stop trying for months. Now I just see it as part of the process. So losing my progress does not bother me much. I will regain it all again. I just need more practice.

SPEAKER_03 40:02

Oh, yeah, that's that's banging. Right. What a nice, compassionate um way to see progress as well. And I have no doubt, Amar, that you will get to a good place with that mindset.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Yeah, maybe even such a good place that you'll be actually famous instead of just on an episode of disorder for 27 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

Good job, uh I'll go a little did it anyway to read out as well. Um, I have driving and health anxiety, amongst others, and today I had to drive to a medical appointment to a location I hadn't driven to before. So I was anxious about driving and the outcome of the appointment. The outcome of the appointment was good, and he tried to even enjoy the journey back because I'd had some good news. I felt really good about myself. Love that one. Yeah, more applause. Everybody gets a round of applause from the studio audience. Absolutely. And the question um that I had ties into kind of the first and second uh clips that we heard. Um I I you've not said we can uh say your name out, but I'll read it. Uh I really enjoy listening to the wisdom of the two of you, and I do feel that I get a lot from your podcasts. And it feels like listening to your podcast can be part of my obsessive need to get better. Listening to your episode, I'm obsessed with my anxiety and anxiety recovery, episode 19, I feel like this is me and has been now for a few years. Isn't listening to your podcast just feeding my obsession and looking for reassurance? And I feel like I can't stop. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. That's a good question, isn't it? You wouldn't hear you wouldn't hear that on another anxiety podcast, would you?

SPEAKER_02 41:45

No, you wouldn't hear that on almost any podcast. The question about not listening to the podcast. We're the worst podcasters ever, because my feeling for that, and I've said this for many years, the best day for somebody like me, and I think I would, I'll include my friend Josh in this, is the day that you stop listening to us because you don't have to. Like we make a podcast like this so that you don't have to listen to a podcast like this, if that makes any sense. But I think the question, you know, how do I stop doing that? First of all, kudos on the awareness that I'm doing that. I'm doing that thing where I'm obsessively listening to podcasts to try to obsessively get better. Just knowing that you're doing it is huge. A lot of people don't recognize that at all. They just think it's what they're supposed to do. No, this is what you do. And I it kind of plays into like Juliana's voice message. Like, I I immediately wanted to listen to your driving anxiety episode to calm myself down, but I didn't. So, how does this person stop doing that?

SPEAKER_03 42:35

You look at your relationship with the podcast. Um, I think for some people, their relationship is, oh, there's a community that I can tap into and listen into wins and have psychoeducation. And with each new episode, we will try to bring something a bit different to the table, a bit new. But if you found that you know you're doing this not just for this podcast, but the the but obsessive obsessing about recovery in other ways, you've got thousands of books and you you don't want to miss a single thing. Um, a lot of people can obsess about well, what if I've missed that little bit of nugget of information that could have been the thing that gets me better? Uh that's a very sneaky kind of uh sinister avoidance behavior, really, because it's like actually, I need to find everything first before I start doing the tricky stuff. Uh my advice is yeah, take a break, see how you feel. Um, you don't need to need to. We all believe that you know you are the you are the coping mechanism, you can do this. And kudos to you for uh acknowledging that. I've been in that situation. I had the therapy, you know, honestly, hundreds of books, hundreds of articles, all that, trying to do everything. And yeah, it it just depends. Juliana's relationship with it is great. So actually, I'll listen to him when I'm you know, when I'm I presume when I'm at home and doing stuff and whatnot, but when it comes down to it, when it's game time, actually, no, I don't need to listen to you now. I don't want to do this, but then again, then you've got a nice community to come and share it with. So, yeah, to answer your question, it depends on your relationship with it. And if you feel like it's feeding the obsessive loot, then absolutely, you know, take a step back for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 44:18

But we're here waiting, we ain't going anywhere. I like how you said take a break and see how you feel. I'll tell you how you're gonna feel. You're gonna feel more anxious. Like, I think it's pretty reasonable to say, well, when that moment comes when you feel like you have to reach for the podcast and you decide, oh, I'm not gonna do that this time. You'll probably feel more. You're confronting that feeling on your own without trying to soothe it or get instructions on what to do with it from us or whoever you're listening to. So, like, expect that it might be difficult. It might trigger you a bit to not listen. Because sometimes people also get caught up in the idea that listening to podcasts or reading books is recovery. It's not, it informs your recovery, but listening to us is not actually recovering, it's part, it helps you recover.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Also, also, anyone else listening, don't feel bad if you're tuning in. Oh, yeah, it's just it's just it's so it's absolutely fine. We're here to inform you and provide different things, but there are probably a very small section of people that have like, yeah, maybe I've just noticed that listening is part of this obsession with the recovery that I'm having. Yeah, for it depends on your relationship, too. If you just find comfort and enjoyment listening to us too, great, carry on. Uh, don't feel bad, don't feel like, oh, I'm still listening to Drew and Josh, so that means I'm not recovering. No, yeah, uh, I know people that have fully recovered and they still tune in because they just find it interesting and want to hear the stories and listen to the guests and stuff like that. It's fine. Just for that very small section of people that are like, I've noticed that I'm I'm using this compulsively. Yeah, yeah, just just just be aware of that.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Or try listening when you're not anxious. That's a good strategy, the rule of thumb. Listen when you're not anxious. That's great. If you enjoy it or you get something out of it, it's awesome. I also appreciate that he he actually called this wisdom, which means that we've made a lot of people's eyes. Like, wow, this is wisdom. Cool, okay, I'll take it. Don't feel very wise today at all. But uh anyway, thanks for the question. I guess we're good. Are we good? Episode 35.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Yeah, thank you. Uh, as always, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

Yeah, always fun. If you guys have questions or comments, you want to be a did it anyway, or send us questions, go over to disorder.fm because that's where you can send us an email or voicemail. The voicemails are fun to listen to. We listen to all of them, we read all of them, we just can't answer them all, unfortunately. But uh, they inform new episodes and we just like hear from you. It's great. Thanks, guys. Thanks everybody. We'll see you next week.