Anxiety and Self-Compassion w/Kimberley Quinlan (Episode 027)

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I think we've all can think of times where we've been compassionate towards another person. And self-compassion is exactly that, but directed towards ourself. It doesn't take away the suffering. It's really holding space for the suffering in a kind way and not making it worse by engaging in criticism and punishment and judgment. The thing that's interesting to know is self-criticism actually does work. If you beat yourself up enough, often you will do the thing you don't want to do, but there is another consequence to engaging in that behavior. Let's also be gentle with ourselves, given that we don't know how to do it right and that we have engaged in these behaviors because you're only doing the best you can with the knowledge that you know and with the instincts that you have. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode number 27. My name is Kimberly Quinlan. I'm a marriage and family therapist in the state of California, and I'm an OCD specialist. I have no idea who these two numbskulls are, but let's introduce them anyway.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Hi, I'm Joshua Fletcher. I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK. Go under the social media name Anxiety Josh. And I'm a previous sufferer of anxiety.

SPEAKER_05 1:16

And I am Drew Linsolata, the second numbskull in the lineup, after our first official guest. I'm a grad student and a therapist in training in the state of New York here in the States, and also a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for many, many years, and now one of the co-hosts of this mind podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Welcome, Kim.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Thanks for having me. Excited.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Our first official guest on Disordered, someone who we respect highly and regard as a good friend, um, and someone who knows our stuff. So we can't wait to put you on the spot, make you feel incredibly anxious, and just reassure you that there'll be no editing. So there we are. Bring it.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

Not afraid. That's why I like him. Uh before we uh get stuck into talking about the topic of self-compassion. Um Drew and I often, when we do this podcast, we celebrate wins in the community by doing things called uh we're listening to Did It Anyways or reading submissions on disorder.fm. Uh and we pick one out today because we thought it would feed nicely into uh today's episode. Um we've also got some questions from the community as well. Uh DJ Drew, if you want to hit the decks and uh spit spin a track. DJ Drew, spin fire. Let's do it. Did it anyway? Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

Hi, Drew and Josh. Um, I have a very exciting Did It Anyways for this week. Um, after two and a half years of agoraphobia, with my ultimate fear, my highest fear being flying. Um I got on a plane and I flew. And I it's it's hard for me to even wrap my head around the fact that I did it because it was my absolute biggest phobia um after you know being crippled by agoraphobia with panic disorder. Um, but I did it. I got to the airport. Uh I was a wreck. I was so nervous, but I went through the motions. I allowed the panic to just pass through, to exist, to walk side by side with me. And eventually I just boarded the plane. I sat down and it was almost magical how the anxiety just evaporated when I accepted it. And then I got up in the sky, saw those clouds, and it was euphoric, it was bliss. And I'm so glad I didn't wait another week, month, or year to get on that plane because in a few days I'm flying again, which is just a miracle to even be able to say and not to be so scared of it. So I I feel incredible and invincible. So thank you so much. Um, if anyone out there is scared of flying, I encourage you so much to just listen to disordered, feel, feel that fear and just let it fuel you and get on that plane because I was the most scared. I was so scared of flying. I was afraid of even seeing planes in the sky because they sparked this existential dread within me. Um, so if anyone was scared of getting in the sky, it was me, and I did it anyways. So I believe in you too. Thank you guys so much for all your support. I don't think this would have been possible without the gentle and persistent encouragement you guys give us through this ERP, through this talking. Um, I'm so eternally grateful. So, yes, get in the sky, everyone. You've got this.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Woohoo! Superb, absolutely superb. Gentle and ERP. Talking of gentle and ERP, what did you think of that, Kim?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

It was so inspiring. Get in the sky. What an amazing thing to say.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Oh excellent. Um, yeah, thank you for submitting that. That was wonderful. Kim, how would you describe self-compassion? What's compassion as a concept?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

Sure. So I think everybody knows compassion through the lens of kindness towards people, you know, um, having empathy for other people, having sympathy for other people, um, being tender towards people as they have a hard time. Um, I think we've all can think of times where we've been compassionate towards another person in their time of suffering. And self-compassion is exactly that, but directed towards ourselves when we too are suffering. Um, and so it is a practice of nurturing ourselves during the hard times. It doesn't mean the reduction of the suffering, it doesn't take away the suffering, it's really holding space for the suffering in a kind way and not making it worse by engaging in criticism and punishment and judgment.

SPEAKER_05 5:46

Love it. We suck at that, don't we? Being compassionate toward ourselves. I mean humans in general.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Humans, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Yeah, something I had to learn um during my recovery. Um yeah, it's very easy to be compassionate to someone else, but to yourself, the rules change. Um, I wonder why that is.

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Well, we actually have a lot of research to like hypothesize why. Um, what we understand is the reason we've evolved all these years is through tribes, right? Like you stay in a tribe that you know, we've we are um we are based on community. And a big part of staying in community is conforming to the rules of the community and staying within the pack so that you can travel long, long distances or survive national disasters. And often when we're struggling, um, we are then threatened of not staying in that tribe or that pack. And often what we will do is we'll engage in any behavior that you have to your fingertips to keep yourself competing and staying up within that community's rules. And often, because we haven't been taught a lot of ways to motivate ourselves or to stay within a group or a pack, we often do engage in sort of a self-directed criticism, a self-directed narrative of you have to do it, come on, just do this one thing, push a little harder, it should be easy. And this is very true for people with anxiety or with a mental health struggle. You know, our society has a lot of stigma with that. And so a lot of times we engage in these behaviors not because we want to beat ourselves up, but because it's our only way of trying to conform and stay functioning.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

So if we're doing it wrong and we're not conforming, we'll just kind of beat up on ourselves to make sure we don't get booted.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Well, the good thing, the thing that's interesting to know is self-criticism actually does work, right? If you beat yourself up enough, often you will do the thing you don't want to do, or you will get to class, or you will go to work. Um, it it does, in fact, work, but there is another consequence to engaging in that behavior. So we have to first, like from the get-go, let's just make a deal with the listeners. Like, let's also be gentle with ourselves, given that we don't know how to do it right and that we have engaged in these behaviors because you're only doing the best you can with the knowledge that you know and with the instincts that you have. Um, well, often patients of mine will say, it's hard to drop the self-criticism and the judgment because it does get me an A in my test. It does keep me, you know, being the fun friend at the party and so forth. But they get to a point where the consequences of are so large and the pain and suffering is increased that they're ready to make a change.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah, it's almost like you tough love can can work sometimes. Um, but I'm thinking about kind of with with anxiety disorders specifically. Um from my perspective, I find that if your only outlook is is is to criticize yourself, you're adding stress. Uh because it's stressful to be criticized. Yeah. Imagine the power of your own voice to help others, or imagine the power of your own voice on yourself. Yeah. And you know, anxiety disorders and and threat responses thrive off stress. You know, it keeps us in that cyclical loop. So yeah, sometimes I remember in my recovery there was a bit of come on, you can do this now. You know, like stop putting it off. But mostly it was kind of actually, you know what, you you're going through a pretty tricky time at the moment. Stop trying to demand immediate results. You know, it's not that's not what it's about. You gotta do little wins a little bit at a time, and also acknowledge what you have done so far, because I'm one of these people that that likes to move the goalposts before I've even you know watch the goal go in, you know, watch the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. Um but I realize I'm at happiest in my life when I'm just being compassionate to myself, and and and that's mirrored in my anxiety recovery and just living day-to-day now.

SPEAKER_05 10:12

Yeah, I probably have to challenge that that assertion too, like, but beating myself up or self-criticism gets me an A of the test. Okay, but in that context, you can study more. Maybe I can read a little more. Like, there's practical application in anxiety recovery, OCD, panic disorder. It's that's not a practical application because you're literally going against survival instincts and you're going against the drive for to feel comfortable and secure. So, like, that is not an easy thing to just decide to do harder. I'll do I just do it harder. It's actually the other way. You gotta be a little more gentle. It's weird.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

How often do you guys hear from like clients and people on social media like I forced myself to go to the shopping mall? You know, I forced myself to well, you know, I always like take take the word forced and replace it with how about I encouraged myself to do it.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Yeah. The way I explain it to my patients is that it's actually not the criticism that got you to the supermarket, it was your values that it was important enough to you to do it. Because you could could criticize yourself all day to do something, but if it's not in line your values, you probably won't do it anyway. But it's usually your values, but the way in which you got yourself there was through the whip of criticism and self-judgment, and that there's an alternative way to motivate yourself. Um, I call it the kind coach. A kind coach is like a voice in your head. Instead of going, get up, you idiot, like you loser. It's a kind coach knows your strengths, it knows your weaknesses. It's not, doesn't use your weaknesses against you. It knows your strengths and encourages you and cheers you on based on what your strengths are. And so it's say telling you to do the same thing, it's telling you to go to the supermarket, but it's doing it in a way, like Josh said, that doesn't actually increase your stress release, it doesn't increase the release of cortisol, it doesn't increase uh sort of your fight, flight, and freeze response that does go off when we're so hard on ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah, it makes sense. Drew, if if the kind coach is like Luke Skywalker, then who is Darth Vader?

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Oh, Darth Vader is this guy. It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Yeah, clearly. We often uh have um we talk about Craig or Craig, depending on where you are on the side of the Atlantic. Uh, is that internal voice that we talk about a lot that's always berating us either for being anxious or for other things? Um maybe it's berating us for not being where we need to be. Uh maybe it's just kind of having a go at us and criticizing us for being uh stuck in an anxious loop or obsessing, maybe we've got OCD, maybe we've got panic disorder, stuff like that. Uh, what would your advice be, Kim, to someone who's got a very loud Craig the critic?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Right. Well, I think the first step is just giving it a name, like you have like hi Craig or hi Martha, like right Martha. You can give it a name. I think externalizing it because when we hear it, we think that our thoughts are facts, right? We think that if I've thought it, it must be true. If I have the thought I'm a loser, if I have the thought that I'm crap, well, it must be just a fact. So sometimes again, naming it or just naming it as criticism is a huge first step and being aware when it happens. That in and of itself is about 50% of the work, in my opinion, because then you have an awareness of it, you're, you know, you know the trap of it, you understand the function of it, and then we can intervene. Now, here's the thing, and I I talk about this a little differently than I think pop psychology does with self-compassion is. Um, let me tell you what self-compassion is not first. So, self-compassion is not unicorns and bubble baths and candles. It can be. I'm out. That's a wrap.

SPEAKER_03 14:13

That's a wrap. Don't tell me to get rid of my kid. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

It can be, it can be those beautiful, loving things. It can be the warmest voice saying, you know, you know, that's not kind, you know, you're not those things. It can be that. Self-compassion can also be a strong boundaried voice that says, no, we are not going down this road today. That only hurts me. And I refuse to let my brain or my amygdala or whatever it is, Craig the critic, I refuse to let you have a voice today, Craig. Right?

SPEAKER_05 14:53

Wait, I can't not hit the button. It's not a whole bag.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

So I want to be clear that um some people hate the idea of compassion because going from being a critic to being that warm, kind self feels like a slap in the face. And it doesn't have to be 100% that it could be setting boundaries, it could be standing up to fear, it could be slowing down and saying, What do you need during this very, very difficult time? Or how are you? You know, and and slowing down and doing that deep nurturing work. But um, you each person is going to be different, and each person is going to need to find a balance that is a starter point for them.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

That's really good. I because I do think there is that misconception. Compassion is such a fluffy word, and it should be, it's a nice thing that sometimes it gets glued to uh avoidance or soothing, or you know, things that instantly make you feel better and calm you down, which is nice, but there's the price to pay at the other side. Like if I do that now, I'm gonna feel terrible about myself later. So let me do the better thing for my future self now.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:17

Which is a hard choice to make.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Well, some conceptualizations, like the way that they conceptualize self-compassion, is the wish to end suffering, right? And so if we were to look at anxiety, for example, like avoiding things isn't a compassionate act, is not to avoid because that doesn't end the suffering. You might for the short term, and there will be times where that's your choice, and we are going to be gentle with that being your choice. Um, but it's about um checking in with yourself and asking what's in your best interest, and and sometimes slowing down and nurturing a part of you, and then other times it might be standing up to um an uncomfortable experience.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah. Yeah, and what's important there is that it's different for each individual. I think um Drew and I in an early episode um made a point about not trying to imitate um kind of tropes of of compassion, you know. You know, I think we mentioned something about thrice fermented kimchi and and uh doing yoga on top of a mountain and stuff like that. Uh obviously, if you if if if that's what you're into and that works, you of course that's great, and you're not doing it to imitate. Yeah, uh for me, self-compassion often looks like you can stop now. Stop listening to the I should. You know, if you want to sit down and play a games console or watch some trashy TV because you've been working hard and you're trying to you know wrestle with that in a inner critic, then you know you're allowed to allow credit the critic to tell me I'm lazy and do all that, but then my voice comes through like come on now, you've you've been working really hard, you can sense the stress, you can feel it, you know, you can feel it in your body, your jaws tight, you're allowed to kind of stop now. And I think that's so important pre and kind of anxiety disorder and during and after your recovery.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:18

Yeah. I think even for one person, it could look different from day to day. But some days it spurs you onto action, some days it allows you to rest or be a little less perfectionistic in your recovery. Right? Some days it allows you to recognize it, like, oh, maybe, oh yeah, that thing I did two days ago maybe wasn't the best choice, but what can I learn from that? That's a self-compassionate act as opposed to that was wrong, I did it wrong, I can't get this, you know, what's wrong with me? Um, so even self-compassion will morph for any individual person from day to day or even hour to hour sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah. My clients will often make fun of me because one of the questions, the question I ask in almost every session is what I consider to be to be the ultimate compassionate question, which is what do you need right now? Right. And stopping and checking in, as you both were saying, is to when you're in a moment of suffering, is to check in what do I need right now? Gives you an opportunity to check in because there's no right way to do this, and there's no formula for this either, right? That's why you've got to be careful on like social media of like here are 12 steps to being compassionate because it's different depending on where you're at, is recognizing like what do I need that's within my control right now, and it will be different moment to moment.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah, that makes sense. What's the role of guilt and compassion?

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Hmm. I always conceptualize guilt as a stop sign and in a road. So often when we have guilt, um, it is often again misinterpreted as a fact. If I feel guilt, well, therefore I must be guilty and therefore I must need punishing. Um, and then off we go into a mountain of rumination and beat up and all the things, overapologizing even. But I think of it as a stop sign. It's really an opportunity to slow down and ask yourself, is this an emotion that's just showing up? Or is this totally in line with my values and that this is warranted for me to take a very short look at what's going on and decide for myself whether I want to proceed in this direction or not? Um, just because you feel guilty does not mean you actually did something wrong. Anxious people do tend to have a high an over-responsible mind. Um, hyper-responsibility is very common in anxiety, depression, OCD. Very, very common. And for us folks, myself included, we have to have a little bit of a uh put our mind's eye on guilt as something to check in with before we proceed down the lens of you're a bad person. For me, if guilt shows up, and I have struggled with guilt a lot in my life, is I just notice it, I thank it for showing up, right? I ask if there's anything here that I am concerned about proceeding forward with my values. And if it's there, I let it be there. And I coach myself through it by going, I see that this is hard to hold on to, it's difficult to make space for it. What do I need? Um, and so forth. So I don't know if that's helpful to what you were specifically speaking to, but I think people, folks with anxiety do tend to struggle with guilt.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

I think super purposely throw a vague one at you there. Drew, how often do we hear in the community um about the role of guilt? Because that is um the antidote to that is is self compassion. Yeah. Um, how many how many people do we hear? You know, oh, I feel guilty. See, I can't go take my ch child to school. Um, I can't, my partner and I can't go on holiday. Um work, I feel guilty because I have to work from home and can't do certain things at work. Um, the antidote to that for me would be well, I'm going through some at the moment and I'm trying and I'm getting there. Even doing stuff like listening to this, reading books, considering how I can get better is a compassionate. And I think you need to often echo that back to yourself.

SPEAKER_05 22:29

Yeah, and I think, you know, Kim, you brought up a good point, like that hyper-responsible mind. It's also a distortion and a magnification because you know, a little bit of regret or some second guessing can become huge waves of guilt in an anxious mind. So, like, okay, maybe I I sort of wish that I had gone to grandma's birthday party instead of skipping it, becomes I am ruining my family and I'm passing this on to my kids and I'm horribly guilty over this. And people often ask, well, how what's the best way to get past guilt? And I think that self-compassionate approach that says I'm going through some things right now. What do I need? Well, I sort of need to do something to move away from that direction. I'm guilty because of an action that I took or something that I did that I did, which I didn't do. Well, can I take a small step in the other direction today? So sometimes I think guilt is a it informs that change. You can just sit in the guilt all day and ask us how to get past it, or you can maybe act on that guilt a little bit. What can I do for myself today that's a little moves myself toward what I care about?

SPEAKER_02 23:30

For sure.

SPEAKER_05 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

I think it's I think it's too important to remember a very compassionate word, is the word yet. Like I didn't do that thing yet. Like it's it's okay to say yet, like I'm not able to take my kids to school yet. Um, that that can be very powerful to remind you that this is just a journey that you take steps towards. I think the other thing here, and I get like this is really basic, but probably of all the practices we talk about today, it's probably the most important is compassion is not the removal of suffering immediately. It's usually making space for it. I can't tell you how many times my clients roll their eyes because I say they'll be like, I know what you're gonna say. I need to make space for this. And what I mean by that is not like let it be there and ruminate and make it worse and believe it to be true, but just going, okay, I'm observing guilt. I'm gonna ride a wave of guilt for the next as long as it takes. And I'm going to be gentle every step of the way. That's the commitment, not to get it to go away, but how can I ride this wave without making it worse while holding my own hand, while, you know, really encouraging myself as I ride that massive, sometimes very painful wave.

SPEAKER_05 24:48

Yeah, no, none of this is immediate, none of it is intuitive. It doesn't make common sense. And I think sometimes it's applying what's the word I'm looking for, achievement goals or achievement um criteria to something that isn't easily achieved and takes a long time. So there's patience that's built into this, also. Like yet is a great, you know, like, well, I have to be patient with myself. Because no matter how much I want to do this immediately, I can't today, it's not going to change today. So it's that long game is hard to be patient with.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

Yeah. Also, it's nice to use kind of facts uh about the situation. A lot of the time the when people judge themselves when they're anxious in a in a certain situation or place is that they'll take in all the information, all the context, and and put it together as one kind of problem. When actually when I like work with clients or speak to people, let's look at really the very basic thing of what's happening here is that you're stood here and your threat response has gone off. You are literally uh experiencing fear, which is one of the hardest emotions that a human can possibly endure. So it doesn't matter if you're in the shopping mall or walking to the end of your street or getting on a plane or whatever, you are facing fear. This is an internal problem a lot of the time. And that's tricky. So therefore, if you are going face to face with fear, toe to toe with it, no matter where you are, no matter who it's who it's in front of, no matter what triggered it, that's surely the very definition of of bravery and courage. And I think it uh the criticism comes afterwards because you judge it on the context, but actually, if you judge it for what it is, you're facing fear and you and you're testing yourself on that, I think that's magnificent, and that's literally bravery and courage. And you can't even challenge me on that because I could put your brain under a brain scanner, completely deromanticize this entire anecdote, and say, Look, see, you are scared and you're choosing to do it anyway. Well done. And I think that would be a form of self-compassion if you can internalize that kind of voice at times when it's difficult.

SPEAKER_05 27:07

Yeah, and it's not a math problem. Again, I'm a broken record here a little bit, but like facing fear is so nuanced and it's vague and there's no specific principles and values. I don't even know what my freaking values are. Most people would say, like, this is really hard. Yeah, exactly. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

I'll use that joke before I'll keep using it.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

Yeah, but you know what? Keep it coming. I'm all for it. Do not value fashion at all. Um, but yeah, it's a thing, and so it's so amorphous in some cases that you're not going to get it right. Where that leads sometimes to like, let's get meta self-compassion over your lack of self-compassion. I've seen people beat them up, beat they beat themselves up because they're beating themselves up. Wow, like that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Yeah, well, if self-compassion is just another thing you have to do today, well, then yeah, you will beat yourself up. I think it's important to slow down a lot of the work we do, is a lot of psychoeducation on why we're doing it. It's not just another thing to add to your recovery list, right? This is of all the things you do, this is the one that will probably serve you in all the areas of your life. You you know, you'll use it on the day that you lose a loved one, you'll use it on a day where you break your leg. Hopefully you don't, but you may. Um, it's a it's a practice you'll use during all the ups and downs. And again, I think um people usually, and I'm speaking generally, but people who have anxiety, I know that's who we're speaking to, or have some you know, mental struggle, they're usually really intelligent, really aspirational. They have a lot of goals, they want to do a lot of things, they have the capacity to do all the things. Um, and so the idea of, yeah, I want to be self-compassionate is great, right? Except um, this is, you know, in my book, I wrote a book for OCD on self-compassion, and I talked about this idea of it's in you, you were born with it, the ability to be compassionate. But it think of it like a seed that is dormant under the soil that takes a lot of cultivating to grow. Um, and as you this is sort of like the way I explain it is when you plant an actual seed, you have to water it for some days, sometimes months before you actually see any fruit from your watering. Um, you mightn't get a payoff right away. Sometimes you have to water it and water it. I know you're making fun of my accent right now. I can see Drew.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

It's like water, water, water.

SPEAKER_05 29:53

Um water, water, water.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

It's true, it's true. Um you it takes time to get that benefit. So it is important as you go in to be aware that this is a slow grow, that you don't get a lot of benefits, and it's okay if you don't get it right for a while. I suck at this and I talk about it all the time. Like, I still catch myself on days where I'm like, ah, you idiot. Like it it happens. Um, but again, I think the first step is just catching when you are doing that.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

I I I think I was gonna ask you one more question from me before Drew and I start uh gatling gun you with questions from the community. We put uh some stories out on our Instagram today, and we got some lovely questions thrown in. Um, lots of insulting ones about Drew and I as well, about like why can't you be this cool and stuff like that? Um, but the one question I wanted to ask was uh just something we can briefly cover. Um you know, who's more at risk for self-criticism? And I'm talking about this from more of a developmental mindset. Um who's more at risk for for their default to be self-criticism?

SPEAKER_02 31:08

To be critical?

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah, when I talk, I'm talking like developmentally. So let's say you know you grew up in a tricky house, or maybe an absent parent, or maybe that you went to a school that was tri um that was hard and very disciplined, maybe, you know, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Yeah. Well, I think you've kind of already outlined some. I think that childhood experiences can very heavily impact our inner narrative, the voice, right? Um, if you were someone who was scolded, um, very, very rigid, strict rules, high levels of achievement, uh, you know, are all going to be factors that will make you more vulnerable to self-criticism and self-judgment. Going into self-punishment will be, yes, even more, the the very highly disciplined child, the the trauma, you know, having trauma where there was an incident where they may have felt that they were at fault for it. Also, the um onset of another mental disorder will increase your vulnerability to being self-critical critical because almost all mental disorders come with distorted thinking, as Drew said, and the distorted thinking increase our chance our chances of internalizing and believing those thoughts. I am bad, I am terrible, I should be better, you know, it's my my job to keep people safe and so forth. Um, so so I agree with you on all of those. I don't have statistics in terms of like gender stats and so forth. Um, what I do know is that females in general tend to be more um likely to disclose it because I think men are generally speaking, again, there's like a pressure that they're supposed to be hard on themselves, and that's like macho and and so forth, which I think we need to be very, very uh open and curious to our to anyone who feels that being kind is uh less manly or less masculine and so forth. Um, so that's I hope that answers your question.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Yeah, I think it's a great answer. It's a great answer. And yeah, I just wanted to bring attention to it, but like because there's some people, you know, you probably just have really crappy childhood or in abusive relationships and stuff. And you can internalize that. I think from my I work more from a kind of humanistic modality, and I think I I notice a lot like uh people who almost echo what they've heard or absorbed from around them, and we'll do an episode on that at some point, Drew. Um, but yeah, I think when you think in a self-compassion, it's super important, extra important, particularly if you've grown up in an environment that's been completely devoid of it.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah. Let me also share, just to broaden this, is I grew up in a very loving family, very loving. I don't remember anyone yelling ever or saying critical things, but everyone was succeeding at such a high level, um, and was so nice that it actually made me internalize a voice where it's like, you have to be good, you have to be excellent, you have to succeed, you can't fall behind, like you have to be nicer. And that voice fueled a lot of my eating disorder, anxiety, depression without having that experience, too. So I think even just society and the expectations of society, social media can also significantly make you more vulnerable to engaging in self-criticism.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Yeah, that's that's super important. And um, yeah, that's really interesting. My my brains that go in that, yeah, of course, because for me, it's like failure has never really been modeled to you. What it's like to be a rubbish human for a little bit has never been modeled to fall down or not get the job done.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, don't do your family name. Like that was a huge part of my anxiety, right?

SPEAKER_05 35:12

You're interestingly, you are both the most gentle and the most driven person, I think I might know, Kim. Like as we've become friends over the couple of years, it's like, what a weird dichotomy. So I get what you're saying. And yeah, I'm like, this, you know, and you always, you know, talking about like you have so many things, you always do so much. I don't know. I think you got me beat. But uh the other thing that I think matters, you know, that vulnerability uh toward sort of self-criticism. If you are the reason why you're listening to a podcast called Disordered is you're dealing with a mental health issue of some kind, which always comes with that high level of neuroticism, which is basically an inward focus. You are living in a petri dish of self-examination and and therefore criticism. Like, don't forget that. Like the the state that you're in itself is is like rocket fuel for just always examining yourself and picking it apart. So notice that. Like, oh yeah, that's right. This is the disorder talking sometimes. Yeah, that's such a good way of putting it. Yeah, it's insane when you really think about it. Like, we are literally focused inward all the damn time. So, of course, we're gonna get a little bit more self-critical.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

You know, when you tell me I'm in a petri dish, I feel dirty all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_05 36:17

Especially when you're in a room with us, you don't want to hear Petri dish.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

That's why I eat my uh evening meal out. Um we've got some questions to fire at you, if that's okay, Kim. Um they were just little ones, so they're it'll be vague, you know, just quick fire answers. You know, we don't know, we don't know too much because they were sent in on an Instagram question box, but just generic stuff uh advice uh that where you know where you can use self-compassion or or whatever. But there's one actually from before, uh which ties in nicely to what you said, Kim, which is that I give great advice to others about anxiety, but why can't I take my own advice?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Because it's hard. That's why, because it's hard, you know. I think me too. I give great advice. It's hard to do though, and I think it is important that we acknowledge be that be really slow down for because it's hard. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable, nobody wants to suffer, no one wants to face their fear. I've never had a client who's like, I'm so excited about facing fears today, or I'm so excited about getting out of bed, but I'm horrifically depressed. It's because it's hard, which is why, you know, positive psychology and all those things are great, but at the end of the day, the harder it is, if we looked at it on a graph, the more compassionate you need to be to the fact that it's so hard.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Have you got any questions, Jewish? I do.

SPEAKER_05 37:50

I have a couple. This one is a definite self-compassion question. This person asks, Why does a setback, in quotes? I love that you put it in quotes, into old anxiety, panic, and agoraphobia patterns seem so much harder.

SPEAKER_02 38:02

Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm actually curious to hear your thoughts on this too. From from my perspective, is it seems so much harder because you've seen some growth, right? You understand your your bet your op opportunities, and you probably have a lot of memories about how bad it was, which in and of itself can be really scary. So I love that you used again the the like in parentheses, like a setback. I think it's it might even seem hard because you've called it a setback, right? Like you've telling yourself you're moved backwards. But I think um again, it's hard because it is hard, and you're probably telling yourself that you've moved backward and you're back to square one.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Yeah, yeah. Also, it's it's a challenge to learn from it. Well, when someone has a setback and then then that criticism comes in, it that tells me that you're you have a binary view of success, either pass or fail. Well, no, this time apply the same principles to recovery, but without the binary view of success. And like you just said there, Kim, it was brilliant. Like, no, here's a chance for me, you know, here's a chance for me now to kind of to learn. This isn't a setback. I'm not gonna call it a setback, this is another step in my road to recovery. Uh, how not to compare to others, i.e., how can they do it and I can't, and in brackets, public speaking anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

Yeah, comparison is the quickest way to self-criticism. Truly, it is in both directions, whether you're telling yourself that you're worse than others or you're telling yourself you're better than others. Believe me, even that in of itself can end in a pretty big self-criticism. So yeah. No, so I think the thing to remember here is number one, and I talk about this a lot on my podcast, is what you see other people doing is not that's just their A role. It's not actually what is going on. You don't actually know how they're doing. You don't, a lot of people are panicking and you wouldn't even know. So I think it's important first that when we're talking about comparison to know that you truly have no idea. I always say to clients, you're here telling me that the most popular girl at school is so lucky and your life is so terrible, but the popular girl is sitting in our office too, saying, My life is terrible and I'm miserable, and I wish I was not at this high level of like everyone's praising me and wanting to be me. So I think that's a first factor. And then the second thing is we all have a different pace in which we recover from things. And it's important to honor that because it is true. What is, I say this all the time, is your hard thing is your hard thing. Don't compare your hard and by a lot of people will say to me, like, this is ridiculous. I shouldn't celebrate this win because who can't wash, who can't have a shower, you know, without doing all of these compulsions or so such and such. It's well, this is your hard thing. You're in there, but yet that other person who speaks really well has a hard thing of their own that's very easy for you.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

That's so important. And from my on my own expensive, I don't like claustrophobia. I do better and better. I've been doing exposures for a while, and I'm in a good place with it. Still got a few challenges to go. And I notice Craig the critic and the inner critic, you know, you're supposed to be an anxiety therapist, you can't go this. Hold on, no, Kim's voice. This is my hard thing, this is my challenge. And actually, if I went and asked any of my friends and family, you know, what do they admire about me that they can't do, they'd be like, Well, you get you can talk in front of thousands of people, you can put yourself on social media, you can do all these things that I wouldn't dare to do. And I was like, Oh, so that's what might be your hard thing, or it might be mine. And everyone has their own hard thing. I love that, it's great. You can defeat the elderly at pickleball. That's a thing. Oh, I did I did today. Sorry, guys. And I wasn't compassionate about it either. You lost, you talked the whole way.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Take that. Take that face.

SPEAKER_05 42:30

Oh my goodness. Well, that might be a place to end it. So I do have you know what? I do have one question. It's not really a self-compassion question, it's probably a quick one, it's a practical question. So let's get practical. This is do you have any tips for journaling? What do you for OCD and anxiety? Like anything that you tell people to do or not do? Okay, bring your A game on this one.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Well, it is about self-compassion, and this is actually one of the best ways to train yourself to use that voice. I don't encourage you to start practicing compassion when you're at a 10 out of 10 anxiety. You're gonna get so much better at this if you're doing it at a time where you're not completely overwhelmed with your fight, flight, freeze, and fawn, you know, response. So, what you can do, and I'm a huge advocate for journaling, not journaling how anxious you are and what your anxieties are and all those things, but practicing responding with that compassionate voice or that kind coach? Um, it's a huge piece of the work. So I will say to patients all the time, let's sit down and on a piece of paper or in an app on your phone, write out it when when you're doing a hard thing, what would that kind, compassionate, all knowing, wise part of you say to you in this moment? What would they encourage you to do? What would they encourage you to, how would they encourage you to use your Body language? What tone of voice would they use? You know, it doesn't have to be just what you say. It could be how you say it, right? And get in the practice of doing that. Again, it doesn't have to be like, I love you and you're wonderful and you're the best and you can do all the things. That's not, that's not gonna land either. But if you know, let's like use Josh as an example, he said he was doing exposures. Let's say he's going to do a 10 out of 10. What would you what do you need to hear when you go to do that? And you can start to write out that, that voice when you're at a two or a four or six to practice how you what language you need and how what you can do. And then you can take that letter with you the day you go to do that exposure.

SPEAKER_03 44:46

That's that's great advice. Uh, what do you think of Drew writing I'm an anxiety warrior in his uh in his channel?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

As long as it's a W O it's a W A R.

SPEAKER_03 45:00

I'm a warrior, I'm doing all this stuff. One final question. Who do you prefer more, Drew or me?

SPEAKER_02 45:10

I actually was expecting that question and I thought, oh god, I hope they don't ask me that question. Who do I prefer more?

SPEAKER_03 45:18

Probably the person who isn't self-involved enough to ask that.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

I feel slightly trapped right now if I'm checking in. Okay, here's an easier one.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Which is the better which is the better book, The Anxious Truth, or Untangle Your Anxiety?

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Oh, that's impossible to answer because uh I have to say, and I'm doing a plug here. Some of my most loved people have read and had life-changing experiences by being reading both your books. So I refuse to say that both of your books have literally changed the lives of some of my closest human beings. Wrong.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

The correct answer was the self-compassion workbook for OCD. I totally blew that.

SPEAKER_03 46:03

The disordered stamp of approval, the self-compassion workbook for OCD by our guest Kim is an outstanding piece of it, and it's something that I actually have it on the shelf behind me here. Um it's part of the library, and when clients come in, I've lent it and stuff like that. They've gone out and bought it and things like that. Uh it's really good. Where where can people find you, Kim?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Sure, thank you for having me. Um, so you can find me on your anxiety toolkit podcast. It's a mindfulness and self-compassion podcast for folks with anxiety. Um, you can find me on Instagram um under your anxiety toolkit and YouTube under your anxiety toolkit. And I have two different practice uh uh businesses. So you can find me for private practice services at KimberlyQuinlan-LMFT uh.com. Or if you want online resources and online courses, you can go to cbtschool.com.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

That's a great resource as well. I've um I remember having access to that several years ago.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

We've both been on the show before. So great.

SPEAKER_05 47:05

ERP school was so good.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Thank you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 47:08

I'll put all the links in the show notes. If you're on disordered.fm, I'll put all Kim's links in the show notes for this episode.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

So thank you very much, Kim, and we wish you a wonderful rest of your day. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Thanks for having me, guys.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

See you in the next episode. We're out.

SPEAKER_05 47:23

Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.