Anxiety And Brain Fog (Episode 036)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

So I want to start off by saying thank you, and I'm a huge fan. Uh I listen to your podcast religiously, and I find it tremendously helpful in terms of education and understanding anxiety and how it can affect you. Um, I was just wondering, can you please touch on uh brain fog? Um I find it that that is the most difficult symptom to kind of work through, and I don't I'm not sure as a result of the brain fog if it kind of causes depersonalization or derealization, where it almost puts you in like a state of confusion where it's hard to even execute any sort of decisions on a day-to-day basis. So, yeah, so if you could just uh speak a little bit about brain fog.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Welcome to Disordered. This episode is episode 36, and it's titled Anxiety and I can't quite remember. Feeling a bit foggy. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders based in the UK. I'm a previous sufferer as well as author of several self-help books, and the co-host of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a grad student in clinical mental health counseling. Getting closer to be a licensed therapist in New York here in the US of A. I am also an author and a podcaster on this topic of anxiety and anxiety disorders, and a former sufferer. So we have a lot in common and co-host of disorder. What are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Uh I think I think the uh the Sender inner um said something about brain fog. Is it something you ever experienced with anxiety?

SPEAKER_03 1:43

Brain fog is a thing. Brain fog for me was I can't remember things. It would manifest for sure as like my memory, even short-term, was was tough to access. Um, long-term memory was not available to me at all in terms of just like remembering names or passwords and things that I needed like for my work. And it was just like having cotton in my head, and my like the thoughts had to try to burrow through the cotton before they could work. I just felt slow. I don't know, it was really hard to describe. It's so hard to describe it. What about you?

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah, I don't know. It was very sluggish, difficult to recall things, uh, difficult to sequence um thoughts. Uh, I often felt like this feeling like I was in like put on the spot, like under the spotlight, and I'm trying to sequence and put together words and recall memories, and it was just a very slow process. I could still do it, but it often felt like trying to do something that requires high cognitive load uh when you've had no sleep and you're tired and you're not and you're hungry, and you you can't quite you're not at your optimal best. Um, but yeah, brain fog's a really common symptom.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

I find it really frustrating, and I used to uh like the the sender inner, I like how you do that. Uh she did mention depersonalization or derealization. Like when I would I it felt very close to that dissociative state for me, and it would was frustrating, and then it would lead to feeling dissociated, and then that scared me, and it was just so disruptive and frustrating, and it would make me angry sometimes. Like, why is my brain not working?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah, yeah, and particularly um when you tie into the last episode about fear of losing control, some people can see that as evidence that there's something wrong with them, um, that they're they're going crazy, or then they're very ill in some way, or their brains breaking. No, assure you that brain fog is a very common symptom, and we'll use today's episode to to explain and and talk about why it makes sense that we're gonna feel a bit foggy.

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Yeah, you use the word cognitive load, which is a good one. I mean, there's the the concept of cognitive load, is there's only so many things that our brains can do at one time. We like to think that we're like great multitaskers and we're super smart, and we are clearly top of the food chain, but a human brain under heavy load with a lot of other things to think about breaks down pretty quick. We lose the ability to remember things or remember words or remember names. If you give people a lot of things to track in their brains, you see how fast we start to lose capability pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Did you ever play the PC game, The Sims? Uh yeah, way back when it was one of the games that I did play a little bit. I love that. Uh it was great for control issues as well. Uh, you know, oh look, I can drown the postman in the swimming pool because I'm a sadist. But uh, I I often get these moments of of everyday brain fog that everyone gets. Uh, you ever just walked into a room and gone, why did I come in here? All the time. All the time. We all do it. There was a purpose here. Yeah, I mean, that that's an everyday example of brain fog. But if you're struggling with an anxiety disorder, suddenly it's like a there's evidence to suggest that you know, oh my god, I'm struggling here.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

It would make me pine for my old self, probably more than anything else. Yeah, I was always afraid, and yes, all that stuff, but that the brain fog was the thing that made me most feel like I just want my old self back. I just want a capable brain back. And I I would I was never worried, I will admit that I was never worried that it would be permanent, but I just I just wanted to not feel that.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah, it's an easy target as well for our old friend Craig. Uh Craig, the critic. See, you can't function like you usually can do. Look at you, you're you're a mess, you can't do things. I mean, it's just nonsense, you know, you're gonna get brain fog, you know, because anxiety is it can be exhausting, you know. Uh why are people who struggle with disordered anxiety, Drew, why are they more prone to brain fog?

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Oh, I think there's in a situation where survival is more important than anything else to the way your brain functions, we always hear that. Your brain's designed to keep you alive, not happy, not smart, just alive. And when you are completely preoccupied all the time with how you feel, what you're thinking, how you felt yesterday, how you might feel in five minutes or tomorrow, what's going on around you, what might trigger you, who might trigger you, there's already a very long list. When I wrote 7% slower, I said being in a brain in charge of an anxious person is a it's a difficult job because the pay is long, the task list never ends, and you know, there's no rest. So there's always stuff for your brain to be worried about and focused on that's survival-based, but always goes to the top of the chain. Always. So I my feeling on that is when my survival, that limbic system is activated, the lower part of my brain is activated, the front part of my brain that's responsible for quick thinking and being agile is kind of depreferenced in the algorithm there. So it makes sense. Like I'm not at that moment, I'm just terrified, I'm afraid, I'm worried, I'm there's I'm looking for threats. Reasoning and remembering passwords and doing crossword pubs is not important in that moment.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Absolutely. Yeah, and what's in charge of that threat response, Drew? Oh, we all know amygdala. Absolutely. It has to prioritize threats. Yeah. So it's better to be safe and alive rather than being able to do a crossword or answer a boring question that someone's asked you. You know, that was another brain foggy thing for me where someone just be talking to me and they've asked me something, and I've just zoned out because of brain fog. Um, they've asked me a basic question and I've kind of just got halfway through it, and then I'm like, oh, I don't know what's going on here. Uh the sender in a mentioned DPDR, derealization, suddenly maybe that might have got my attention halfway through, particularly if I fear anxious symptoms, like, oh yeah, oh now I'm looking at, oh now I'm dissociated. It's all part of it because many anxious symptoms, including brain fog, overlap with one another.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

Yeah, for sure. I think what's interesting about it is if somebody, and we've all had this, we have people in our lives, maybe there was a huge loss, maybe they someone passed away, someone close to them, and you know that they're in that state where like they're just not functional for a while, because they're in a major, there's a huge loss, they're experiencing huge waves of grief, they're under the gun. You would not question why that person, your friend who's in that situation, or your loved one who's in that situation, you you get that they're not at work, they're not fast, they're slow, they're sluggish, they're overcome by their emotions. We don't question that, but yet in an anxious state, when it happens, it's like something must be wrong. It's almost the same thing. Yeah, under load.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, and you're and you're overstimulated when you're anxious too. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's um, and yeah, that will make things a bit trickier. It doesn't mean you can't function and do not avoid things because you're afraid of the overstimulation, because you're afraid of the brain fog. But this is where care and compassion and being nice to yourself really plays a role, which is like I'm gonna go and do it anyway, and I might be a bit slower, you know. Um, because you actually find that you can uh perform or engage with things better than you think. Picture someone doing public speaking. I I get brain fog doing public speaking all the time because my threat response has fired off. I'm super nervous, my anxious response doesn't want me to fail, or you know, it's scanning for signs of threat. So actually, optimally, I'm probably not the best, but also that kind of hyper-awareness of things actually helps my performance too. I'm not beating myself up going, oh my god, I'm overstimulating myself, oh my threat response is affecting my cognitive ability to recall, etc. etc. This is why people like rehearse doing things like public speaking, so they can so it's easier to recall on on the fly when your anxious response is going off. So just remember, yeah, don't add secondary worry to brain fog. It's part of it, you know. Like, oh, it's like saying I've not drank a glass of water all day. Why am I feeling sluggish, tired, and dehydrated? Oh, there's a reason I haven't drank water.

SPEAKER_04 10:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

Why am I feeling brain foggy? Oh, yeah, because I'm worried about symptoms of anxiety and I've been overstimulated, and I'm probably you know, tired.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Yeah, it is it's an exhausting state to be in. You know full well you were in it. Like it was tiring to be in that state all the time. Whether it's it wasn't full panic all the time, but being kind, you know, focused on how you feel and worried all day long about how you feel, where's where's your out?

SPEAKER_02 10:32

Can you get brain brain fog with um if depression is involved as well, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Oh, yeah. Uh in the times of my life that I've been through what people call clinical depression, or we might a major depressive disorder, whatever you want to call it, brain fog was a huge player in that. Huge. Like every decision, including should I stand up or sit down in the moment, or what should I eat? Because I'm hungry. What should I eat was a uh like a monumental decision. You might as well have been asking me to make some sort of life or death, like, hey, just design a brand new country and a new constitution. Like, really? Like, what should I take out of the fridge? Was a hard decision for me to make.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

So funny you mentioned that. Often, like, it's something that I've written in my books and stuff like that. But one of my most used anecdotes is my the scariest thing I've done, which is go into Asda for the first time after not leaving the house for many months. And it was something that actually I shared in the booth group that we did a few weeks back. Uh, and someone could relate to it. Where when you're in the I was in the supermarket and I picked up two tins of soup. And honestly, it it the the brain fog was like, do I get tomato soup? Do I get chicken soup? And and that decision just felt so important. Whereas like looking back, it was like just get them buying both, it's soup, it lasts forever. But acknowledging actually, no, I'm anxious. There's adrenaline, there's cortisol pumping around, things are gonna feel a bit discombobulated at the moment, and it's okay. Like I got through it, I'm like, yeah, all right, that's okay. That's part of learning to go through brain fog. Yeah, you can still function, it's just not at the at the speed and at the efficiency that you like.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

It's still the state itself causing the anxious state. You know, we talk about that all the time: the fear of fear, anxiety makes more anxiety. In that situation, I might suggest it's not the fact that you have to choose between one soup or the other. Yeah, that's irrelevant. It's that you had to choose at all. And since I have to make a decision, and I'm bad at that right now, the fact that I notice that I can't make a decision just ratchets me up a little bit more. The anxiety makes more anxiety. So I I think that was big for me, recognizing that. And Craig the critic will pick on that as well if you're someone who's very self-critical. Yeah, this is a problem. And I would for me that you know, I don't I don't think I suffer a lot with a lot that inner critical voice, but there it would come out a lot. In the last episode that we did, I talked about that too. I would pine away for the old me. And it was so hard to have degraded like intellectual performance. And it was a hundred percent degraded. There was no doubt. I weren't gonna lie, I wasn't gonna pretend that everything was fine. It wasn't, I was slow, and that hurt.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Wasn't it as bad as you thought it was in the moment?

SPEAKER_03 13:25

In retrospect, you know, you can always look back and say, no, it probably wasn't that bad. I mean, I remember one specific incident where I had to configure we I was we're running a wireless internet network here on Long Island, and it was a Sunday morning. I was in full agoraphobia mode. The the node, the network node is maybe eight or nine minutes from my house, might as well have been 90,000 miles, couldn't go there or was afraid to go there. And I had to reconfigure the network on the fly, and if I made a mistake, it meant I had to go there to fix it. Is that what those IP addresses that you memorized? Yeah, and I could not, I had to write it all down.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

That was one of the yeah, probably the uh that was a low for this podcast that you admit to the case.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

The fact that I admitted that I remembered all those IP addresses, it was a low watermark for sure. I'll we'll go lower. We'll find, we'll find worse than that, I'm sure. Maybe that, maybe today. But uh I remember having to sit down and I can't do this. I had to write out all of the commands and all the things I had to do, and then go over it and check it again and check it again. And then I sat there with my hands shaking, reading my instructions to do it. But guess what? I did it. So, in retrospect, was I unable? No, I just had to learn to adapt. And in many ways, while that hurt, Craig the Critic was in full force there. You were always the fast guy. When the shit was on fire, they called you. Yeah, when stuff was burning down, you're the guy that they wanted to put out the fire because you could just do it. And I couldn't do it in that moment. And that was a hard Craig the Critic was loud that day.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

What's the ultimate comeback to that? To Craig the Critic saying that.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

I mean, in retrospect, I it was hard to have a comeback in the moment. But I remember when I finished, like pushing the chair back from my desk and saying, I did it. Like, look, I did it. You know, did it take me longer than it otherwise would have? Yes. Did I actually learn a better way to actually do it? I probably did. And I remember thinking, this was probably a better way to do this going forward, even if I don't have to. This was a better method. I learned something.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yes. But but you, and it's the important thing, and this is something if you want to take from this episode, and it doesn't matter what the symptom is that you have, whether it's brain fog or whatever, I could do this despite feeling anxious. Isn't that empowering? Yeah, ideally. Ideally, I I want to do anything not feeling anxious, but I could do this despite feeling anxious. Wow. So when push comes to shop, I can do this feeling over the moon, or I can do this feeling like crap.

SPEAKER_03 15:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

But I can do this.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

Yeah, for me, I it was the realization, it wasn't a feeling of elation that I got through it and didn't have to go out. Now we could talk about that's a different recovery topic, the agoraphobia part. You know, I was able to avoid that fear, but I had to face the brain fog to do it. You can't get everything all at once, right? But when I was done, I remember thinking I did it. I felt elated about it. And I remember being able to access that lesson, like, oh, if I had to do it, I could do it again like this. Now I know how to do it with brain fog. And that made me feel pretty good. And it did silence the critical voice while I was in the middle of it. Man, he was screaming. This is yeah, what kind of way is this to live?

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Beating you while you're down. Oh, yeah. That's rough. Your voice comes into my head about this particular symptom as well. When you say things like, This is not special.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

You know, obviously, disclaimer if you're worried about any symptom, go to your doctor, talk it through this and that, you know, and they'll just make sure they'll do the due diligence and make sure everything's all right. But in general, brain fog is very, very common with anxiety. Um, and what you gotta remember is that just because you have brain fog doesn't mean that it's your special brain fog. Right, it's everyone experiences brain fog usually as a result of tiredness, stress, overstimulation, and exhaustion. Um, you know, the amount of times people go, I trying to recall a word, even and people get brain fog then, like, oh, what's that word? What's that thing I wanted to say? Oh, I forgot, or what was the name of that person? And then two, three in the morning, they're like, bang, I found it. Oh, and then and then it's almost become like a joke, as like a a common thing that people say in conversation, which is um, I it's that is that your notifications again, yeah. And any anyway, I'm gonna get brain fogged with those things. Uh and and yet it becomes a common truck where it's like, oh, I'll remember that at 2 3 in the morning later on. I know it. I know it when it's all gone and I could have said it. We see on daytime quiz shows, like, I've got you know, I've got so much foggy. I know I know the answer to this, but I just can't recall it right now. It's so normal. But don't let your anxiety or Craig the Craig or your perfectionistic tendencies in anxiety recovery make it special.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

That's true. In Western cultures, we we all understand I drew a blank. My wine, my mind, I was so nervous, my mind went blank. I couldn't remember the word. Like I couldn't, I couldn't do it. Like, or people will worry like musicians, what if I forget the lyrics? Because we recognize that sometimes that happens to us. Just that an anxious person will interpret it as oh no, this is a huge problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

And I've seen musicians who've played the same song thousands of times, and they'll go, I just forgot the lyrics. Forget the forget the words, yeah, just at a funny moment, just at a funny moment, you know, it's not special, you know. Try not to let anxiety latch onto it as something special, and particularly those with, you know, following on from the last episode about um uh OCD subtypes and people who fixate on fear of losing control or the the decline of their brains and or am I broken or whatever. No, it's just I'm anxious a lot, so I'm gonna expect brain fog.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Yeah, yeah. That I expect it is a big deal. You don't have to like it. It doesn't mean you like it or welcome it, but expecting it is kind of a big deal because I think every in almost every episode we do, I'm sure there are people listening who want to say, Oh, that's cool, they're talking about dizziness, but they didn't tell me how to make it go away. We never we never talk about how to make it go away because you don't have to. Like, you don't have to like brain fog, you don't even have to welcome it. You could be scared by it, but it's the whole like I gotta do something about it, I have to fix it, I have to make it go away. How do you make it go away? How do you calm that down? Well, stop trying to calm it down would be always the same advice, right? And in this situation, I found that that, you know, believe it or not, I learned a little bit about self-compassion when I had to deal with my brain fog. So I didn't think I was doing learning self-compassion, but I was. Did you ever do you ever try to because you made a good point, don't avoid because of brain fog. Did you ever try to prove it wrong? Do you ever do that thing where it's like I'm gonna let me do some math things or a crossword or let me see if I can remember my cousins' names to make sure that my brain works?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah, the compulsive hamster wheel, which I often mention about the hamster wheel, yeah, because you you're testing. Compulsive testing, don't get me wrong, you know, if you're feeling a bit brain foggy and a bit lackluster and you've not used your cognitive brain uh for a while because you've maybe you're feeling depressed and you want to engage your attention externally, great. Do brain training, do stuff like that. I love it. If you're doing it out of fear, right, no, I need to prove this wrong, my brain, then that you know, as we know, they're anxious compulsions.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

If it feels urgent, like you have to do it urgently or do it right now. I would try to remember birthdays, and I'm terrible at people's birthdays. We've been friends now for three or four years, you and I. If you tell me I don't know your birthday, I'm never gonna know it. You could tell me today and every day, I'm never gonna remember your birthday. I just know it. But in those days, urgently, I would try to remember people's birthdays to prove that like I still had a working brain.

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Yeah, absolutely. And it was ridiculous because I don't remember them when I'm not anxious, and it would make me worse. I just I've got better at this, but I didn't do it with names. I know, just like and they're like, hi, my name is nice to meet you. And I'm like, I'm gonna remember that name. Nope. Minute later. Yep, done. Hi, Bob.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Hey, you that's that thing where you're trying to want to know that you'd forgot their name a minute later. I get that, but everybody gets that. We all probably get that.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

My name's actually Alfonso Lewis III. Not Bob. What do you Bob? Sorry, Bob.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

Sorry, Bob. Uh it's a universal human experience to brain fog just that an anxious person will interpret it as a huge emergency or problem that needs to be fixed or solved, and they don't want to expect it. And then they will say they're blindsided by it or their hope that it doesn't exist, and then when it does, oh no, it's back. Like I'm just gonna be like this today. And if I'm not, bonus. But if I am, I expected it.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

It's not the first sign of you going crazy. Yeah, but brain fog with insert symptom.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Right, whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_02 21:58

Derealization, uh Tiredness, uh, I have sleep anxiety and brain focus. So see, now I'm there's more pressure to sleep. There's more no, it doesn't matter. You can still function. You are functioning way better than what you think you are.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

I mean, sometimes the acceptance, you know, we talk about acceptance all the time in this thing we do, and accepting that you will be maybe slower, or you might make some more mistakes. Uh, people will often complain, not complain, but they'll get freaked out because they can't they're stumbling over my their words. The brain fog was so bad I I felt like I was stumbling over words. Like, okay, well, stumble over the words. You still got the words, they just weren't as eloquent as you would like them to be, but that's not a disaster unless you interpret it as such. Uh no one's 100% all the time. Sorry, man.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Evidence by Drew and his inability to silence notification.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

That I cannot turn off, believe it or not. But I yeah, who on earth and what on earth is that? It's okay. I'm gonna fix it while we're seeing I'm gonna multitask because I don't have brain fog today.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

It's all right, I'll carry it, keep on going. Brain fog. No, it's one of those that the interpretation of the symptom matters. So, and it's the same with DPDR and all these other symptoms that people see as special or what's most frightening to them is that work on your relationship and your interpretation with it. A healthy kind of modeling would be there. We are I feel a bit brain foggy today, but that makes sense. You know, I'm in the middle of an anxiety disorder, there's other stuff going on, there's stress in my life. Maybe I'm a parent, is that to actually sequence loads and use a lot of cognitive stuff this morning? I'm looking getting kids ready for school, maybe I'm a carer, maybe I've got stuff to do for work. And what happens is the brain fog is seen out of context to actually everything that you have done that day, and then suddenly you have a little window of brain fog, and suddenly, oh yeah, that needs all my focus. No, I'd I'd suggest turning around going, hey, look what I have managed to achieve.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Yeah, under duress and under load, like give yourself a little credit for that. Get some credit for functioning anyway, even though not optimally. I had to accept not optimal, but but acceptable, passable, serviceable. Okay, I'm not optimal today. There's nothing I can do about that, except fighting to be optimal or prove that I still was. That was just making it was making things worse for me for sure. Fighting it, no doubt.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Yeah, definitely, definitely. Uh don't let the pressure get to you as well, brain fog. Like some people, if they're going to the doctor or their therapist or whatever, and all week they're like, no, I know what to say, and I need to convey this, or I need to tell this person something. And then on the spot, you might just draw a blank, like Drew said. That's okay. That's fully um expected to happen. It's your compassionate response to it, um, which I am a huge advocate of.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Yeah, I mean think about, you know, just to come back to that, yeah. How do you how do I how am I can I do that? Well, talk to you like you would talk to somebody that you cared about, a friend, a partner, a child, a relative, anybody. I mean, a coworker that you were particularly fond of. If that you that person was struggling that day, you might say, Hey, you're just all right, you're allowed to have a bad day. So try to adopt that attitude and bring it into your conversation with yourself as best you can. That's being compassionate to yourself.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

I couldn't have said that any better. Drew, can you hear that? I can hear something coming and it's quite scary. We've got a fantastic dinner anyway. Yep, Halloween play to you. It's Halloween themed, it's Halloween here. Let's do it. Uh, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Hi guys, I just wanted to share my win. Um, I haven't had a proper social drink in about 11 months, as when I did at the beginning of this year. It started off a huge chain reaction of panic attacks, which then descended into um kind of anxiety disorder, panic disorder, low moods, and a real, real struggle this year. Um, there were other contributing factors as well, but um the night out with kind of caffeinated drinks and things didn't help. Halloween is my favourite holiday, and I uh felt determined to go out for it, so I arranged to go to a Halloween horror maze where you get chased um in the dark and to then go in fancy dress to a party at the pub with a DJ. Um I undernared about it all week, uh, nearly cancelled quite a few times, and then just decided to go ahead with it. And the maze was terrifying but amazing, and then we went out to the pub in our fancy dress, we danced the night away, we were right by the speakers, um, I had four drinks, which is more than I've had at any other point this year. Um it was very crowded, and I did it anyway, and I risked the panic and the anxiety, I slept terribly afterwards, I had a hangover the next day and the first time in I don't know how long, and it was absolutely worth it. And I know that might not be the usual sort of win, but for me, like a night out every now and then, especially at Halloween, is what non-anxious me would have done, and it was amazing, it was absolutely amazing. There were some great tunes, really good time with friends, and it felt like a huge, huge, huge win. Um, and it's a lot of it is thanks to your podcast. So thank you so much for everything that you do.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Love it. That's amazing. There's so many things I like about that, uh, Drew. Uh what non-anxious you would do, um, doing things that scare you, running around in the dark, being chased, like purposely evoking the amygdala, something that we often run scared from in itself. Uh, doing I just think that's absolutely wonderful and well done to you for doing that.

SPEAKER_03 28:06

It even lasted until the next morning. The fact that she was able to point out I didn't sleep well, I was tired, I was hung over the next day. Because often in our community, that story will become, I had a great night, but that this morning I'm so anxious. She was able to actually carry it through to the next morning. I'm hungover and I'm tired. Okay. I'm not gonna call it an emergency.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Positive snowball.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

Oh, that's a spooky sound. Of course, people people are hearing this like two weeks after Halloween, I believe, for three weeks, so they don't get it. It's completely incongruous. What is wrong with these guys? Talking about brain fog.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

No, it's superb, superb. Um, do we have any other did it anyways or questions?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

You had it, did you have a uh did it anyway with you wanted a read? Was that you?

SPEAKER_02 28:52

Or yeah, I do have one. Uh I did lose it temporarily, sorry, because I had to sign out and sign in. Brain fog. Um, but yeah, brain fog is exactly what it was. Um do you have a question or anything that we can answer first?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Yeah, we can do that. I'm gonna pop in. I'm gonna take a random actually. Let's see who this was. Okay, well, let's answer. You know what? This is completely random. Uh, this person did not say to use her name, but that's okay. It this literally came in just now as I was looking. That's not true. But the end the question was, do you think the gut has anything to do with anxiety? Now, if you haven't listened to our will they have heard it, yeah, they will have heard it. Episode with uh Dr. Sula on IBS and anxiety, you should listen to that. But this question is, do you think that the gut has anything to do with anxiety? I've been hearing so much about this. She goes on to talk about more. But uh, what do you think?

unknown 29:43

Dr.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Sula gave the best answer to this, I think, ever. So you should listen to me.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Go go listen to that. But in general, I don't pe when people in our community look at the gut, what they're asking is, is there something I'm I can either do or is there something I'm already doing that isn't helping so I can shortcut my way out of discomfort? Yeah. Um, don't get me wrong. Like if you know you want to look at your gut biome and wellness and stuff like that, you you go for that. You know, I do. I have my fermented foods and things like that. I'm not doing that so I feel less anxious. I'm doing it just to look after my overall well-being. Try not to see gut health as the way out of a phobia of fear and a misinterpretation of the amygdala. You know, if I if I go and smash a cheeseburger now, it's not being gobbled up by my stomach and then my amygdala's going, oh my god, you know, like you know, there's danger here or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I can feel discomfort sometimes when I'm bloated. I don't like that. And sometimes the threat response kicks in and it's like, I don't like feeling bloated. Is there something I can do? But in general, and I can only really answer my my my opinion, I don't see it as the end of getting out of an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

Yeah, I think um again, I I can't repeat enough. Go to listen to episode, I think it was 34 with Dr. Sewell about IBS. And she gave the best explanation of second brain that I have heard ever. She became my favorite guest instantaneously. So if you it's because of the whole your gut is your second brain thing, go listen to what she had to say. Essentially, she very clearly identified why we call it that, and it has nothing to do with what you think it is as an anxious person. There's a lot of nerve endings in your stomach, and there's a lot of signaling that goes on, and it's attached to those feelings, but it doesn't create the feelings. That's it doesn't create the fear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

And and and Dr. Steel is way more qualified. 100% than we are. Um, I've I found the the did it anyway. I like this one a lot. I'm gonna request piano background so it sounds more epic.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

That means I have to actually have the music ready, which I don't, but if you give me two seconds, I can have it ready. Yes. You want to do that?

SPEAKER_02 31:53

It's almost like you had a battery brain fog there.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Almost. How many times can we say that today before people really just rebel and come and get us? But that's okay. Um, let's go and get our little music, which I will do right now, and it is ready to rock. So I will put some some music in for you right now. Ready? I'm gonna play music and then you start reading.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

I have just finished listening to your latest episode on social anxiety, and wow, I listen to every episode, even if they're not really applicable to my experience, because I'm just such a fanboy. Thank you, I appreciate that. Anyway, going into today's episode, I thought social anxiety, that's not really something I struggle with, but I'll give it a listen anyway. For a bit of context, I've been a gigging musician since the age of 15, half my life. I've played and sung in front of thousands of people and done some really high-end pressure gigs. I've never really felt socially anxious or unable to perform in any of these scenarios. However, when you guys started discussing the fawn response, everything just clicked. My father is bipolar and was undiagnosed and unmedicated for the entirety of my childhood. Safe to say, it was a difficult environment to grow up in. I can instantly sense someone's mood when I enter a room. I am a relentless people pleaser, often to the detriment of my own happiness, and find it difficult to be around people who are unpredictable. I never knew this was social anxiety, but your episode really pulled the curtain back on my entire history with anxiety. Thank you so much for the work you do. Also, a specific thank you to you, Josh. This is why I'm reading it out. Over a year ago, I eventually received my OCD diagnosis after suffering with intrusive thoughts on and off for the best part of two years. I reached out to Josh asking how I could start my recovery. His recommendation of ERP therapy has utterly changed my life. A year on, and I truly have my life back, and I'm now determined to live that life how I choose, not how anxiety chooses. I still have work to do regarding my social anxiety, but hey, recognizing it is half the journey. Take care, guys, and once again, thanks.

SPEAKER_03 33:58

Oh, I love that. That's really great. I love that he has his life back.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

That's so good, isn't it? Uh, and you acknowledge certain things, and um, thank you for taking the time out to share that as well and sharing your um uh an openness from your personal life. Uh, we love hearing stuff like that. And often anxiety can make us challenge other parts of our identity. Even today, we're talking about Craig the Critic and brain fog. Sometimes social anxiety can open up different things, and that that's that's the nature and complexity of dealing with mental health.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Absolutely. Yeah, it'd be nice to say it's just an anxiety disorder, and sometimes it's mechanical and you deal with just that, but sometimes other stuff gets opened up, other cans of worms get opened up, but that's a good thing, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Could work on all the stuff, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Yeah, I'm afraid thank you uh so much for tuning in. Uh, if you don't follow us on social media, come find us on there. Uh, I am anxietyjosh, and Drew is the dot anxious.truth. Uh, feel free to sign up to our newsletter on disorder.fm. You can pop us some questions, leave us a voice note, whether it's a question or a hashtag did it anyway. Um, and yeah, um, if you've got us a moment, we'd love a review on whatever you stream us on, whether it's Spotify or Apple. Uh, and thank you for the reviews that you've left so far. We really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Yeah, Robin, lovely. Thanks for tuning in, guys. We will see you again next week. We're out.