Anxiety: ALL ... DAY ... LONG (Episode 013)

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Anxiety all day long. Can you relate?

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Most people with some form of disordered anxiety are anxious all day long. And I find that when people have anxiety all day long, it's because they find it difficult to not check in on it, compulsively check to see if it's there. Has it gone yet?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Simmering or close to boiling over, or just wound up tense, tight, like I'm about to explode.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

It would start off and present itself as morning dread, and in the middle of the day it would be like a simmering unease, and in the evening it would feel like a tired guilt. It would morph and change. It will become a thing that you're not solving this. Try harder.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

What happens if you don't fix it? What else can you do instead of fixing it?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 13. Unlucky for some, particularly if you've got anxiety that lasts all day long. And that is the title of today's episode. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media. And I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety, and I'm based in Manchester in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am coming to you from New York, Long Island. To be specific, I am a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling and a therapist in training, and you will find me as The Anxious Truth on social media. I am the lucky co-host of Disordered. Welcome, everybody. Lucky 13.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yeah. Well, before we start, I wanted to share my own did it anyway. Let's do it. You know, make it about me. 100%. Everyone else on here does. Anyway, uh, yeah, I did it anyway. Um, I was uh best man, my uh friend's wedding um over the weekend, and I was petrified about my speech, quite a spicy speech as well, and I had this anticipatory anxiety all day, and I felt sick, I was dissociating at the derealization, the scary what-ifs, you know, the um kind of oh yeah, just the the the catastrophes, you know. Am I gonna pass out? Am I gonna throw up on the kid in front of me during the speech? Am I gonna offend people? Um and yeah, I just it got to it, and um, yeah, I was petrified, shaking, but I did it and I I loved it, you know, and I I did it anyway. And you know what? It went down really well, so I was absolutely buzzing.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

That's how I did it anyway. I've seen some of the video, you killed it, man. Thank you very much. You get some audio studio audience. Come on, studio audience.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Oh, yeah, there we go. Studio audience. Thanks. Yeah, we've been joined by a studio audience today. Um, sit down, Matthew McConaughey.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

That's not as Matthew McConaughey is here to cheer for Josh. Let me let me follow up when you did it anyway. What did you do when you were dissociated and like having all that anticipatory anxiety? What did you do with it?

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Um, I not much. Just sat there, waited. I've I realized that I'm anxious because I care, you know, it's just adrenaline adrenaline cord. So uh did a few things just to let the adrenaline go, so you know, squeeze my legs and hands and stuff like that. Um, not to get rid of anxiety, I know why I was anxious, you know. But sometimes, you know, physically, when you're gonna do something performative like that, it's okay to stretch your muscles and do things like that. And that's what I did. Um, my anxiety wanted me to run out of the room, avoid, get someone else to read it, you know, keep running to the toilet. I was like, nah, I was like, oh, get on with it. Yeah, um, yeah, I I will admit though, I did have a cheeky whiskey beforehand, you know, just uh but it was cheeky though, so it was okay. It was it's cheeky whiskey, yeah. It wasn't a compulsive whiskey, just like, oh go on, best man. Someone offered it me. I was like, go on then.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

You know, I would I think that's one of those situations where it's normal to be nervous. It's a big day and a big event.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

So yeah, I've got everyone. If you're not worried about if doing a speech or whatever, public speaking and stuff like you, then you know that that's normal. But uh yeah, anyway, that was my did it anyway, just to show that you know, we've anxiety is is an old part of life, and even the hosts of this podcast um will have to go through these challenges as well. Yeah. Um, anxiety all day long. Can you relate?

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yes. And here's one of the myths I want to dispel right out of the gate. So we're gonna get controversial, not controversial, we're gonna blow up a myth right away. People that are anxious all day long but don't have panic attacks, which is what we kind of wanted to talk about today, are convinced sometimes that people who have things like panic disorder panic and then have no anxiety until they panic again. Most people with some form of disordered anxiety are anxious all day long. It's it's kind of an almost universal experience. So if you're anxious, anxious all day long, that's not a special thing. Most of us felt anxious. I was anxious all day long. All day. So it was I was either panicking or worried about panicking. So yeah, it was it was a good time from morning to night.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

In the comments section on my Instagram, uh, I often hear, but what about anxiety that lasts all day long? Particularly when you hear, you know, these kind of common phrases like this too shall pass, my anxiety will pass, panic attacks always pass. Uh what the comments I get are, yeah, but what if I get anxiety from the moment I wake up to the moment I go to sleep. Uh and and this episode's for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Um, because yeah, I've been there. I've had anxiety, per se perceivably had had had anxiety all day. You know, it it it wavers and fluctuates, but I don't know what it's like. It's become a thing all day. It feels like something that's there all day. Um, yeah, this is for you, both from how we got out of it to um sharing some experiences of actually being in it.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Yeah, I think it's it's a good place to start is to recognize that it's not a unique experience, it's not a special kind of anxiety. Like again, most people, if you're sort of in the community, air quotes community around the work that Josh and I do, most of the people you see around you are anxious most of the day.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

So yeah. Yeah, it's not like a an itch. Right. You know, like a lot of disordered anxiety, whether it's uh OCD, um, whether it's kind of generalized anxiety, panic attacks, whatever, it's to do with a phobia or misinterpretation of the threat response. Um, and so when you are kind of scared of something, and if you've not heard listen to the episode about the threat response, where I say the word amygdala a lot. Amygdala. There it is. Chime in. Come on, we've got to go to the episode 13. I swear to goodness. I'm gonna get a sound thing. I'm gonna play these things. I'm gonna be on it. How many demo is that? My compulsions will kick in because I'll be like just pressing them and ruining the the integrity of the wait a minute, wait a minute. Amygdala. There you go. Nice and clear. There we go. Yeah, don't edit your mistakes out, keep them in.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Oh no, they'll be here for all this in the whole world to see.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Um, no, but when it with the if if you're scared of something, and what we talk spoke about in the threat response episode is that you'll keep an eye on it. Yeah. And when you keep an eye on it, what's that gonna do, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah, it's gonna perpetuate it. It's like throwing gas in the fire all day long.

unknown 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah. And and I find that when people have anxiety all day long, disordered anxiety in particular, it's because they find it difficult to not check in on it, compulsively check to see if it's there. Has it gone yet? You know, what's that? Disclaimer, and it's really important, anxiety is your threat response, and some people may actually be having legitimate anxiety in an environment that is legitimately triggering your threat response. Sure. I.e., you might live with someone who isn't very nice, someone might be abusive, you might live in a family that aren't very pleasant, you might be on eggshells around certain people. That is nothing to do, there's nothing wrong with that. Right. That's your brain literally telling you there's a threat. There's no exposures for that. If you're in danger or you're you're you're subjected to nastiness or anything like that, you know, get out when you can. Well, that's just my disclaimer, anyway. I that has come up in the past, so if that's you, but in general, for the people that are just frustrated at having anxiety that seems to be there, that simmering one all day long, or panic to not the roller coaster of panic, I call it the loop of peaking anxiety. Um, yeah, that's kind of that thrives on the more we kind of look at it, check it, and get annoyed by it.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, trying to figure it out. I would add to your disclaimer also if you're dealing with a medical issue or a loved one is, or there's a threat to someone's life, or you're even moving house or changing jobs, or like sometimes it's normal to just be anxious all the time. And I think one of the differences is people who are going through those kind of things who don't have the problems we're addressing understand that I'm a mess right now because my partner is having chemotherapy and it's super stressful and they get anxious, and that's they know why. But people in our audience or our community, again to use the word, um, will not only be nervous about that and anxious about what's going on around them, but then they'll be anxious about the fact that they're anxious, and that's the part we care about. So yeah, it's the part where you try to start to figure it out and figure it out and figure it out, and you can't, and that makes it tougher.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

Yeah, I I remember when I had anxiety all day when I first became unwell. Because I was unwell, you know, I didn't understand what was happening and and I wasn't eating and stuff like that. Um, not unwell in the sense that, like, oh, there's something physically wrong with me, but un mentally unwell in the sense that I'm in thought patterns that weren't helping and affecting me. I yeah, I would just kind of struggle to believe that what was happening to me wasn't disastrous. This feeling of unease must have meant something. This feeling of doom must mean there's something to do to do it. And I didn't really I wasn't educated on what was happening to me. I barely really used the word anxiety, but I had this feeling all day long, ever since that one initial stressful event, well, accumulation of um stressful events, culmination. Um and yeah, threat response, you know, caused bananas and it made me feel really frightened. And then looking back, me feeling frightened and not wanting to feel frightened again, having all these thoughts, um, my behavior was keeping that threat response all on all day. Yeah, you know, whilst also living a very stressful life. So that was keeping my threat response on all day as well. I was going through some difficult times. Um, but yeah, I remember I just remember doing that and just feeling like that was it, one of my compulsions. And I don't blame myself for doing this because you take in like popular media, you take in all these things. I I did this thing called searching for the miracle thought. Did you ever do that?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

No, but I've heard you say that.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Oh, I it some people really resonate, like on my followers on my page. It's like if I explore the echelons of my mind, maybe go through my childhood, maybe go through trying to work it out basically. When I try find the miracle thought that takes it all away, um, through this kind of intellectualized compulsive rumination, yeah, um, it will go away. And all I was doing was just like you said, putting fuel on the fire, teaching my brain that something was wrong. Um, but yeah, there was something I used to do all the time when I had anxiety all day long. It was like if I find the miracle thought, it can all go away. It's all good. It's interesting. Yeah, uh that was a big one for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

And that's how you tried to combat your all-day-long anxiety, but it's you know, you can very clearly now, in retrospect, in some of the conversations we've had on the air and privately, like there were particular events that led up to this sort of the wheels falling off on you. Isn't it amazing that all the searching for the miracle thought missed that? Like you would think that at some point that's the difference between the disordered and the non-disordered person. The, you know, one person says, Oh, well, look at all I've been through in the last year. It's horrible, and yeah, I'm in really bad shape right now. Whereas the disordered person misses that and just the state itself becomes the the driver of the state, and then you start to look for all kinds of stuff instead of the thing that may have been right in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, Occam's razor, you know, the simplest explanation is usually the right one. And and looking back, yeah, I mean as well of the jog analogy, which is yeah, my stress drug just filled up and up and up and up and up until one day my threat response did not understand the modern subject subjective stress and was like, have a week's worth of adrenaline in about 10 minutes. Bang! Whoa, that's fear, that's terror, that's horrible. Yeah, uh, and then yeah, that kind of drove that. Now that started for me, it can be different for everyone. People with GAD just usually just have simmering anxiety all day. Yep, it's annoying, it's a problem. People will listen to what ifs all day and treat them as if they could be real in some way and and give them that importance. Um, what does it feel like to have anxiety all day long? Because we explain like panic attacks, stuff like that, but what does it feel like to have anxiety all day long?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

For me, when I was in that anxious state all day long, or even now, like if I'm under the gun and I have a particularly anxious day, which can happen to me sometimes, it just feels like um, sometimes it's really hard to put these things in words, isn't it? It feels simmering or close to boiling over, or just like wound up, tense, tight, like I'm about to explode, um, like you might lose control. There's just all of those things. I could still, even when I experience anxiety now, that's kind of what it's gonna feel like if I have an anxious day. Um, it's just a really keyed up, like yeah, I I can't even put it into words. I don't know, can you? Yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

I funnily enough, a lot of us a lot of uh came out of uh rumination and reflection. That's just more reflection rather than rumination. Um it's for me, it was like a an ever-morphing kind of presentation. So it would start with morning doom. I mean, last episode we spoke about morning anxiety, nighttime anxiety, but in the it would start off and present itself as morning dread, then in the middle of the day it would be like a simmering unease, and then maybe some afternoons I might have a spike of terror and panic, and in the evening it would feel like a tired guilt, and along with that, and in one of the earlier episodes, we separate anxiety into thoughts, feelings, and sensations. It is like a pick and mix of each, and each time the anxiety wanted to present itself, you know, you you you put your hand in the bag and you come out with a different kind of uh uh arrangement. So sometimes I could have a you know a headache and a tight chest, and I'm obsessed with my breathing. Sometimes I feel this the um feeling the pit of my stomach, it would morph and change, and then I'd actually misinterpret the morphing and changing as something different. Also, this is something new. It's basically anxiety giving me more stuff to make sure that I it had my attention.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah, ah, there you go. That's what I was just gonna respond with. I think the common thread would be that in every case, whatever it happens to be, it's when that feeling, that state of being mentally, emotionally, physically became the most important thing in the room. Like that's what it being anxious all day long feels like to me was just that I feel things that I don't like. They're uncomfortable, they're uneasy, they're it feels on edge, it feels like I'm gonna explode. And it is the most important thing in the room all the time. I'm always aware of it, and I'm always looking at it, and I'm always judging if it's there. That that was tough. It was the constantly attaching myself to it that made it even harder, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, and bear in mind, like that's exactly what the brain, your brain's supposed to be doing. Yeah, that's not you're not crazy. No, your brain isn't going, it it feels incongruous because it is like when the the disordered nature of this type of anxiety is that actually your brain's doing a very healthy, normal thing. It's got confused and thinks that well, the threat here is in how you feel in itself, or if the threat isn't here, then maybe it's in one of these scary what-if thoughts that I'm gonna suggest to you. Yeah, but its job is to kind of keep your attention on it because, like we said, back to the threat response episode, it's the most powerful, it was what makes us the most powerful predator in the world. Like, if I if I've got a mechanism in my brain that makes me doubt and focus on potential threat, I can outmaneuver predators. And in this case, the predator is the anxiety itself a lot of the time. Yeah, and so it's doing its job. You're not broken, but we need to teach it like, come on, man, like I need there's got to be a lot of kind of you said something brilliant in the last episode, was it the something about the the calm repetition of of a continued yeah, the continued return to disengaging with it, like yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh over time, but yeah, I mean your anxiety isn't special, and kind of look back, and every client I have in here who comes in to say that it's like, but what are you doing with your behaviors? Where's your focus? And often you start to see these kind of maintaining behaviors. I'm not blaming anyone for that, I'm just saying from someone who's experienced it, looking back, I'm like, I was kind of keeping the cycle going with what I was doing.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, and I think it it also makes you vulnerable when you're in that I'm just anxious all day long. When something comes along that would legitimately bother you, rile you up, make you anxious, or whatever, then again, you'll gloss over what happened and just go right to the feeling it triggered. So for people who will say that they're just simmering and anxious, or I have GAD, which we should talk about that, by the way. Like just because you feel anxious all day doesn't automatically mean that you have generalized anxiety disorder, but whatever, we can talk about that. You know, and so therefore, anything that triggers them in their life instantly becomes about the fact that they were triggered, not the thing itself, which is interesting. And then some of the times when you hear people tell stories where it's just from an outside perspective looking in, you would say, Well, why are you wondering why you're anxious all the time? One of the great quotes I ever heard from somebody was a woman who said, I I when when we're gonna go to the cinema, she's British, she says, I'm I'm worried about where we're gonna park three days before we leave the house. And I'm like, now remind me again why you why you're always in overdrive thinking and anxious about everything. And she was like, Oh my god. It was like that moment of like, I do that. So every little triggering thing became a huge deal because it made her feel, and she just declared that like so important that she was feeling anxious.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Well, thought action fusion, isn't it? I think that's what it's called, where you when you put um a thought and then you commit action to it. So I have a thought that triggers my threat response, and then I'm gonna act in response to it.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Yeah, I'm gonna treat it like it's real or or important and boom, instantly act in in response to that.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

And that's huge for people who who complain of having anxiety all day long. Is that sometimes we treat each thought like it needs to immediate action because that's what the threat response wants us to do. So a lot of it is kind of like ignoring it and disengaging with it. I know it sounds really boring, and I wish I could pull out a magic wand or tell you this CBD oil will do this and whatnot, or this magic potion or this Ashwaganda plant can take it all away. No, actually, it's it's you. You you know, we discussed getting the credit. It's it's doing the tricky stuff. It's like actually, oh, I've got to really practice and exercise my attention muscle here and my focus.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, and I think for people who maybe they're in the what do you call it when it's looping all day long? You know, you panic and then not and then panic again and then the loop of peaking anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

I call it I like it.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

That that that's a t-shirt right there. But um, I think for sure, for those people, it's well, I'm in between the peaks. I I'm gonna have to let go of the protection against the next peak. That feels wrong. Like, okay, so I'm not gonna protect myself. For people who maybe don't have then it's just that constant stimmer, often it's like, well, you're gonna have to be okay with the fact that you can't solve this. Stop asking questions about it and stop trying to fix it because this these aren't even questions that need to be asked. And that feels very wrong, irresponsible, reckless, against their nature. So that's unc those are uncomfortable things to do and not natural things to do, but that would be the way you start to do this. Well, I have to try and fix this. No, you don't. What happens if you don't fix it? What else can you do instead of fixing it?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's almost like human drive to fix, isn't it? Like if there's a puzzle or a problem, we want that solution. And and that again is nothing wrong with you. That's just your human nature. But when you apply the urge to fix something to something that doesn't need to be fixed, they need to be left alone, you end up in cycles, and that's what most people with anxiety all day long have.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah, I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Um an another disclaimer is like um sometimes if you've got PTSD uh you could be having kind of PTSD triggers. Sure. Um that could lead to anxiety all day long. Now, before you jump in and be like, Oh my god, what if I've got PTSD? I need to find root cause of that uh it's pretty obvious um or it's pretty uncovered pretty quickly in therapy um some examples you know uh maybe you live you move back to a a house that you know you grew up in and some bad things happen there maybe you live with someone who is not very nice um maybe even just like the sound of traffic outside is triggering something for you you know uh ptsd you know can put you in states of hypervigilance and and and alert and make sure you work with kind of of a professional there to help you guide you through PTSD um yeah don't be wrong you know anxiety panic attacks they're traumatic but PTSD again is usually defined by things like flashbacks intense kind of acute intense reactions where you almost convinced that you feel like you're back in that situation again it differs from panic um in the sense that you know you a bit a very compassionate supportive approach to those exposures and and therapy itself is highly recommended that's again that's a dis that's a disclosure I don't want to let people these are people that can have anxiety all day long but the vast majority of people who have anxiety all day long and the odds on are people who are just yeah just I've noticed the anxiety is there and I hate it and it's always there and etc etc yeah I was gonna kick out of you know because there's so much of the especially in the beginning a lot of my work was based on that fear of fear thing and I know you can relate to that and I they would tell me all the time but but I'm not afraid of it.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Okay well I you might not necessarily be afraid of it but you sure are spending a whole lot of time trying to fix it and solve it. So that's not might not necessarily be fear but it's still trying to get rid of it a thing that you don't understand why it's even there. So it's a little bit tough and I sometimes I think there are also underlying what are the words I want to use I I use the word drivers but it's always interesting to talk to those anxious all day people and find those patterns of perfectionism and people pleasing and problem solving and over planning and overthinking and you know well yeah you're trying to bring this incredible problem solving thing that we have between our ears which we we're thankful that we have and you're trying to bring it to bear in places that it was never designed to be all the time. And that goes off the rails and puts you in a bad place.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

So yeah yeah yeah we not everything is a problem that can be solved or by especially by thinking yeah no absolutely yeah absolutely um but also you know it's important to bring attention to kind of the role of irritation and self-criticism um what what what kind of role does does that have when for people that have anxiety all day long?

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yeah I mean I hear it most in the whole like it's a failure because I can't figure this out and then I get I'm a little bit even more anxious because I can't figure it out and I think I should be able to and it means that something is really wrong. Either there's something so deeply wrong that I can't find and it's this is going to be a problem or I should be able to figure this out Craig right I'm a thinker I should be able to figure this out and I can't so therefore I'm doing it wrong and I gotta try even harder to figure it out. It's a vicious cycle in this guy it's Craig the critic he's gonna feel it every time such a douchebag isn't he is totally and he lives in all of us.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah um but yeah yeah he it will become a thing that you're not solving this try harder. Yeah right my thinking isn't working so I better think harder oh and and that is gonna have the opposite effect of what you want yeah it's a tough one um yeah yeah and and lots of people get pulled into the and I'm gonna take another swipe at the wellness sphere again of which we are part of but like kind of like kind of maybe I need to do more stuff on me you know and when you get all this perfectionist stuff you know like I need to do this maybe I need to do that and we start to apply meticulous perfectionism and wellness perfectionism almost compulsively because we feel like we're not you know doing things uh well enough so you know you go out in the morning and stare at the sun for a certain amount of time because someone told me that you know that's what's the optimum time that self-optimizing stuff sure and yet lo and behold two years later you're still anxious all day and you've tried and you've done to be fair you've probably done brilliantly you've done all the you've put in such hard work to help yourself but ultimately and this is where I love saying the golden rules would not anxious you be doing that and runx rule number two is is what I'm doing teaching the amygdala that this feeling is okay? No. So if you're not doing the anxious rules don't expect that feeling to go away.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Especially in an environment where we are consistently surrounded by messages about how we can hack our moods and hack our emotions and engineer positive experiences and choosing happiness. So like being in an anxious state all day in that environment is kind of looked at as failure. You're just you're not vibrating correctly you're not choosing happiness like you're surrounded by toxicity and negativity. That's what's doing it and it leads to a lot of really serious problem solving behavior that often goes nowhere.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

I mean yeah it does you're right you're right and and and we say this kindly like if you see all that stuff don't compare yourself to that stuff yeah you know you're all right if you're if you're being anxious all day long you are living each day with that threat response on and that is exhausting so go easy on yourself like that's hard I remember having anxiety all day that's bloody exhausting and then the guilt on top of it oh you're you should be doing this you you you're you're shying away from your shit your caring responsibilities um there's things you should be doing and you can't you know and stuff like that people have worse than you it's like nah man like living all day with that threat response is tricky but what we're saying it's again it's okay to kind of leave it alone it's all right nothing bad will happen if you kind of kind of detach from that rumination that's a big nothing bad will happen if you detach from it and just leave it unsolved it's okay like you'll still come through it on the other end. Particularly for the OCD heads as well that use rumination as a compulsion it's that the it feels so like sec like instinctual like so right to do it and irresponsible for not doing it but it's okay just leave it alone.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Yeah I I like to use the word I throw the word reckless in there all the time like not doing those things feels reckless to a certain extent in many cases. That is irresponsible man how could I stop doing that? Yeah yeah yeah um I think you know also you look at some of the things and yeah you know so we take a swipe at wellness but like you said we're in it you know if you are anxious all day because your partner is not nice to you because you are in a workplace environment where you're being berated and abused and mistreated then like yeah in that case things like negativity and toxicity actually do matter and you do want to address those things. If you can't identify that stuff though and you just think it must be one of those words because I hear them all the time even though I can't find the negativity and the toxicity I better look for it. That's where there's a bit of a red flag sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah yeah yeah particularly I feel anxious for no reason and I'm sick of it. Yeah if you're a person that kind of thinks that then this is because you know we need to leave it alone. Yeah kind of you know there's nothing to solve right you know Scooby and the gang can do one there's nothing here nothing needs to do Scooby and the gang I would have got away with it if it wasn't for you pesky kids.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah yeah yeah and you remove the mask and all you find is just yourself yeah you ooh yeah ooh yeah oh that was deep wasn't it yeah that's going in the intro oh yeah write that down what time is it 29 minutes making a Scooby-doo reference Scooby-doo reference and some deep meta when you take off the mask it's just you underneath yeah it's just you just that's it that's it you're not evil you're not the baddie yep just you nothing to solve um I love talking about that um and I want to I don't know have we got any questions first we do have a question that I think kind of plays right into this so this was again if you go to disorder.fm you can use the voicemail thing to record voicemail that we won't spread it to the world only we will listen to it unless you want us to play it on the air and then tell us yeah or you can use the send us a message to send us questions we literally read them we've seen every question that comes in so don't be shy we will read them uh um whatever you want to say that sounds great so quite a few messages people being kind you know um yeah not any hate mail yet but you know the podcast is still young that's true I'm a little disappointed we've got no hate mail yet but um yeah so ask questions or share did it anyways or whatever you want to do like we're here we'll listen we'll hear um so this person sent in again no names because he didn't say that we could use his name but um this person is asking about metacognitive beliefs i this is I can geek at it about this stuff forever. So once you figure out your metacognitive beliefs which is essentially your like your thinking style or your your thoughts about thoughts thinking about thinking once you figure out your metacognitive beliefs how do you change them do you need to change them? For example, let's say that I believe that rumination this is perfect for this topic today rumination helps me find answers and that rumination helps me understand. But and here's where he defends his rumination I love this part of the question but there is some truth to those beliefs. So he's going to defend rumination but he also wants to stop it. For example thinking is my go-to to solve problems it rewards me in my career he's in a technical career so thinking is productive in my career but when I is applied to my anxiety it is very detrimental and very difficult difficult to control so I have a love-hate relationship with thinking this is a great this is a great great great question so how how should someone approach metacognitive beliefs that are partially helpful and also hurtful at the same time that's a good question for me there's a huge difference it doesn't feel like there's a difference but there is metacognitively uh between reflection and rumination so yeah thinking is great problem solving is great um but you've got to realize that problem solving when external with a set criteria and work with an aim sure where you know rationally you know their solution could be happier or a best solution can be here then yeah of course use that as part of your wonderful brain and well done for you know for for for for doing that in your job but rumination is when there is no answer you're going round and round in circles and just because it feels like there's an answer there isn't you know you it feels like a hamster wheel you know and it does require distinguishing between them both and actually they are quite clear.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

You know someone's ruminating when you know if you hypothetically wrote all your thoughts down for an hour at work they'd have some kind of structure and they go places and they maybe not be uh followed through with but it's all part of the rationalization process where there's a general trajectory that you're going with your thoughts you know rumination is you just go in nowhere. You know you're going nowhere you your anxious behaviors are more you know and suddenly actually you know it's rumination because the same topic is getting more and more attention and you're making no progress.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

Yeah I think another great and you everything you said I think I'm with 100% and for this person I think he's confused like well when am I supposed to go with my belief in my thinking and not well one of the things that isn't sort of in the theory that underlies metacognitive therapy is that you have this crazy swinging back and forth relationship with those metacognitive beliefs which is I really need to do this because this is good. This is going to help me and then an hour later I got to I got to stop this. This is killing me you rarely will find at work that you say I got to stop doing math man this is killing me because it's it doesn't ever kill you. It's helpful in your job if you find that the thinking becomes this is killing me I have to find a way to stop it that's a clue now you're following metacognitive beliefs in a context that they don't belong in.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah yeah yeah definitely and and and and for the thousandth time of saying but have I missed something if you said that for the thousandth time about the same subject you know it's rumination.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

Yeah right and and this is killing me I got to stop this this is hurting me but let me go back again just in case or I have a thinking problem that I think is a good thing to think then I discover it's not a good thing so I have a problem about solving my thinking and what's my go-to to solve problems start go back to A and start thinking some more so when you get to the this is killing me I have to find a way to stop that's when you know yeah and also use a metacognitive technique is that you could be like which is you know metacognitive is thinking about your thinking or observing your thinking and it could be hold on I've been on the subject for a while is is this reflection is this rumination I often ask myself that sometimes it's like oh it's clearly rumination and you get pretty good at it and it gets pretty easy you know um I I found that anyway uh and particularly with OCD though it'll use other things like guilt and stuff like that to keep yeah but is it because this is this actually has massive consequences so maybe it's not rumination I was like it it's definitely rumination yeah um if you're doing that um I've got a wonderful did it anyway bring it to share I it was really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Hi wanted to tell you about uh hashtag did it anyway I have health anxiety but got the chance to get a complete health checkup from my company so I'm gonna presume this is of someone with health anxiety who hates anything medical not compulsively going there. Uh they gave me an early appointment so I only had to battle the three days from phone call to that made all the tests blood work for several hours thought I would die after getting results but I did it anyway I have nothing but a low vitamin D level kind of proud I made it thank you well done you know medical tests can be scary if you have health anxiety I love that you know make sure you get out in the sunshine top up that vitamin D. You know um yeah I love that well done scary they still scare me they they scare the hell out of me applause studio audience chiming in sit around the corner here it's not about you um no very well done very well done because it's scary anytime you do something scary and you come out the other side winning. Yeah love that love it I think we've done a pretty decent job with anxiety all day long 35 minutes in what do you think I could talk about anxiety all day long with you Drew it seemed like the title did seem like a bit of a strange flex anxiety all day long baby no we don't mean it that way you you think you get anxious in the morning is a problem all day long yeah that's a twisting twist I can I can tolerate I can willfully tolerate anxiety all day long if I have to but the paradox is if I apply that attitude I probably wouldn't have to that's exactly right that is exactly right to bring it back to the beginning of the episode what does it feel like it feels like the simmering thing and then I when I lean into it put my chin into it and like okay come on bring it whatever it is and move I'm gonna make my lunch while I feel this way then I don't have to deal with it much anymore.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

It tends to go away interestingly yeah same here same here.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Thanks for tuning in guys uh if you want to follow us on social media I'm anxiety Josh. Yep I'm the anxious truth you can find me in all the places or just jump onto disordered.fm say hello and once again have a lovely uh morning evening wherever you are in the world and we'll catch you soon.

SPEAKER_01 38:01

Yeah we'll see you next week hey it's Drew thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the disordered podcast find us on the web at disordered dot fm that's disordered.fm hop on over and find links to our social media platforms join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review do us a favor and leave us a five star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by and we'll see you in the next episode