Anxiety About Not Being Anxious? (Episode 043)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

I had uneasy about feeling nothing. What is this nothing feeling? I didn't like it, man. It really disturbed me. I realized I'm not ang I'm not anxious.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Wow. What's going on? This is strange.

SPEAKER_04 0:16

Ah!

SPEAKER_02 0:16

And then you trigger anxiety again.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

The state of feeling like my body being quiet and my mind being quiet for a few minutes was so foreign to me that it would disturb me. I would have paid money to feel nothing for a long time, but then when I did, I interpreted it as something was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

A change in state where actually the only thing that we sometimes we can lean on is that, well, I'm used to experiencing six to eight out of ten anxiety at this point, and when it's not there, your reality changes a bit. Why is this happening? Is my brain changing? Am I losing my mind? No, it means you're doing well and you're well on your way.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 43. Today we're talking about being anxious about not being anxious, which sounds funny, but it's a thing. I'm Drew Linsalata, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. I'm a therapist in training in New York in the U.S., planning to specialize in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm also a podcaster and an author on the topic of anxiety and recovery, and a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for many years, but better now.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media. I'm a psychotherapist and author based in the UK and a previous sufferer. Welcome, dude. Welcome back. Good topic today. Anxious about not being anxious. It does sound a bit silly, but it's actually really common. Uh and I'm looking forward to talking about it with you today.

SPEAKER_04 1:38

It's a thing. Should we start with uh a little something from the community first? A little inspiration.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:44

Yeah, we'll do a dead and anyway. Let's hear it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Hi Josh and Drew. My name is Willow. I don't mind if you share this. Um, I just wanted to let you guys know about a huge win that I just had. Um I'm from Toronto, Ontario, and my partner of four years is from Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is about a two and a half hour flight away. Um and up until about a year ago, I was so agoraphobic that uh even going to the convenience store at the top of my street was like a really difficult thing for me to do. I couldn't do it without white knuckling. Um so this trip has been four years sort of in the making, four years of resisting and saying, I can't do that, I'm just not there. Um and I finally uh two days ago got on a flight by myself, my first time flying alone. Um, and went to Winnipeg for the weekend, and it was bigger than any other exposure I've done, not just because of the scope of it, but because it was the first time that I was able to self-regulate without having to return to like a designated safe space of mine or use um safety behaviors. Uh, I went and I was able to just go, you know, sit in the car, do like check in with myself, accept the anxiety, allow it to be there, um, and and trust myself and uh much to the surprise of Craig the Critic, that um that actually really worked and allowed me to return to the situation and really enjoy my trip. Um, so it was huge for me. Uh and yeah, I'm just I'm so proud of myself. I wanted to share that. Um and it's in no small part thanks to you guys and the community and you know, a lot of the info that you've shared. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Well done. Outstanding. Someone's been putting the the work in there. I think that's that's fantastic, and you s you should be proud of yourself. And for those who haven't tuned in uh in the past, we we we share these did it anyways, and um the sender in a mention Craig Critic, which is that internal voice that wants to criticize us, but you know you you won that round and long may that last. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

I like anytime I get to say the word Manitoba. So good job. Thanks, Melo. Appreciate it. Yeah, that is a good word. Winnipeg Manitoba. So anxious about not being anxious. Yeah, it comes up. Did you ever have that? I think I did. I had uneasy about feeling nothing. Ugh. What is this nothing feeling? I didn't like it, man. It really disturbed me. Do you have the same experience or no?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, yeah, definitely. You know you're anxious about not being anxious when you you know you suddenly caught yourself and you're like, I've realized I'm I'm not angry, I'm not anxious. Wow, what's going on? Yeah, this is strange. Yeah, and then you trigger anxiety again.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

I think I I had a little bit of a love-hate relationship with it. It was great when I started to have those moments where it's like, oh, look, I just sat and petted the dog for five minutes without thinking about how I feel. That was awesome. But then other times it was it felt like there was a whole, it felt empty. Like the state of feeling, like my body being quiet and my mind being quiet for a few minutes was so foreign to me that it would disturb me. This is this isn't right. I feel nothing, I feel empty. Oh, what is that? So it was dependent on the day, whether I liked it or not.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah, for some people, anxiety can be in in some way a comfort in the sense of its predictability. And it's the only constant that can be quite chaotic in a chaotic life, sometimes. Like, well, my anxiety, I know it's gonna be there at certain times. Maybe you wake up with it, and when people start to do really well with their recovery, and you're getting bigger windows like this, like, oh, noticed I'm not as anxious as I was, it's very normal and very common to suddenly be like, oh wow, oh, that's a strange feeling because it's alien. Some people are anxious so much that actually feeling not anxious is alien and and quite jarring for some people. It's like, oh, you know, what I usually say to this is that you're doing stuff right, this is just the next thing that you need to like get used to. But it is quite odd. It's like, oh, and for people with dementiaphobia or the fear of going crazy, or people with OCD that feel like they're gonna lose control, it's jarring for them too, because they're like, Am I losing my mind? Because usually at 3 p.m. on a Tuesday, I feel anxious and I compulse and I ruminate. Why is this happening? Is my brain changing? Am I losing my mind? No, it means you're doing well and you're well on your way.

SPEAKER_04 6:46

That's a good point. I I didn't even realize it. That's what I think was triggering me about that feeling. It felt like I, if I wasn't feeling something, then I'm feeling nothing, which like I would have paid money to feel nothing for a long time. But then when I did, I interpreted it as something was wrong. Like, was my brain shutting down? Was I I I did think that was I I had that slipping away thing that was a recurring thing for me. Am I disintegrating? And I can't, I don't know that's even not the right word. I can't put it to words, but that's what it would trigger in me. It was a change in state, and change in states were yes, no bueno. I did not like them.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

And no, it's not yeah, yeah, you're a change in state where actually the only thing that we sometimes we can lean on is that, well, I'm used to experiencing six to eight out of ten anxiety at this point, and when it's not there, your reality changes a bit. And you know, I want to talk about the lens of anxiety, which sometimes we get so used to experiencing life and seeing life through this lens of threat that you could look at the same thing again, minus the lens of threat, and through a lens of homeostasis where you just feel kind of relaxed. And we spoke a bit about the nervous system in the last episode about you know, when your parasympathetic nervous system is engaged and you're like, Oh, I'm pretty chilled out, things will look different, and you're like, oh, and feel different. And if you've been anxious for a long time, that that can be jarring. Not for everyone. Some people are like, Yeah, I'm not anxious, party, woo-hoo! Uh and some people are like, I'm not anxious, and that feels weird.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Yeah, I was swinging back and forth between the two. It's funny because I sometimes conceptualize that as my full-time job was being an anxious person, and there were times when it was so jarring because it felt like I showed up for work and they told me to clear up my desk, and there was an armed security guard waiting, like, oh, I don't have a job anymore. What do I do now? I was like cut loose by my anxiety. Like, wait, I'm not a full-time anxious person anymore. What do I do now? So there was a lot of things that it brought up. I didn't know what to do with that.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

It's really weird. It's why it's important when we always say, What would non-anxious of you do? Because when you do get these windows of not being anxious, and your default is to monitor, worry, ruminate, try to fix yourself, then you are gonna feel a bit lost.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Yeah. It was at the point where I I I've shared this before, but I was so uh disturbed by that sort of lost feeling and that empty feeling that I literally called male therapist, like, hey, can we have a quick session? And she was great. She talked to me and she was like, How about you go and like, I don't know, go sit at Starbucks or go to the library or go to the park. And I'm like, Wosh, this is this is insanity. No, that's madness. Like, I was just so disturbed by not feeling anxious. It was why?

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, it wasn't like yeah, I was like you at a sometimes I'm like, I'm not anxious, it's it's euphoria, this is joy. But when I was in the middle of thinking that I was going crazy or something, or my brain was broken, I would think that not being anxious was the silence before the storm. Yes, something's happening now, and I feel suspicious around this feeling.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Yeah. It's funny because a lot of people will say, I think share my experience where it's an inward focus, something's happening, something happening inside me. Whereas other people I've heard will say, it feels so wrong to not be looking for a problem. Like this means I'm not on guard, I'm not ready for whatever's about to happen, and it feels just wrong. And after being in a heightened state of alert all the time, like always scanning, merekat mode. I've heard you use that, I love that. Now you're not in meerkat mode. It's like, wait, I'm supposed to be. This isn't right. Something bad can happen if I'm not on guard.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Uh explain a bit more about meerkat mode for those who haven't heard.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Well, I mean, I totally stole it from you, it's your thing, but uh, if anybody's ever seen video of Meerkat, you know, that's that little groundhog-looking animal, and then they're just always, you know, up on their hind legs with the paws in front, just always, their head is always on a well. I guess you're the smallest manual, you better do that because you're about to get eaten. And uh they're always look like they're they're just always on guard. It must be exhausting to be a mere cat. They never calm down. Come on, man.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, and you're in meerkat mode. There's nothing, there's no predators. What I've been scanning for predators for years, yeah. Uh the my predators are twinges in my body, sensations of panic, scary, intrusive thoughts, maybe a sense of something going on. And I've been scanning like a mere cat for predators for years. Are you telling me now there's no predators? What do I do? Yeah, I'm not anxious. My executive function is in has been in such a habit for so long that you present me a scenario that my default habit doesn't apply to, I'm gonna feel strange. Yeah, this isn't right.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

I hear people say all the time, it feels wrong. So some people will say, I wish I could stop looking for the anxiety. It's not there. I love it, but then I go looking for it. I wish I didn't do that. But then other people will say, When I feel like it's not there, I choose to go looking for it. And I don't know why I do that. Then then after, yes. Then after they choose, then they're like, Why did I do that? I don't like that I did that. So some people don't want to choose, they feel it's automatic. Other people know what they're doing. No, no, I I uh oh, I'm not scanning. I better start scanning again. And so they go back into it.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Because your neuropathways in your brain have been formed by doing that. Yeah, you know, and and so it you're not failing if you're suddenly anxious about not being anxious. Don't feel hopeless. Yeah, that's actually you're in a good place, that's a good stepping stone. You have seen the world that you want to access. That is a window to recovery. You just need to learn how to, you know, take your shoes off and and relax in that place again. Get used to it.

SPEAKER_04 12:35

That's a good point. Because I think people will ask us, you know, well, any tips for that? Like it's a it's a different type of thing. Yeah, I'm doing much better, but now any tips for when you're not anxious? Yes, it's an uncomfortable thing that you have to learn to get comfortable with, like all the other stuff you've been through. It's just a different form of tolerance.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

And it's a cop out, but it's like learning to live your life. Yeah. I forgot I've been anxious for so long, I forgot how to live. I I don't know what to do when you've given me free reign. You know, it was um Soren Kierkegaard, the very famous historical philosopher, existential philosopher, he had a quote, didn't he? It was uh anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. And for some people here, that's right, we're cramming in some philosophy into a podcast about I'm here for that.

SPEAKER_04 13:29

Let me pull up a chair.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Oh, we already did. Yeah, we're not banging on about stoicism this time. Oh uh yes, yeah. He said anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. And for people that suddenly have the window of, oh, I'm not anxious. What the hell do I do? Well then, yeah, it's almost like that, like that dizziness of a freedom of choice. You can you could do what you want. You that's your next step of recovery. I need to learn what I'm doing now.

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Like, yeah, what would non-anxious me do? Many years ago, my daughter, my youngest daughter was small. She was probably only in second or third grade, and it was just her and I in the morning. She comes out to get ready for school and she she walked into the kitchen. She says, Can I have ice cream for breakfast? And I'm like, Yeah, go ahead. I fine, have ice cream for breakfast. Like, yeah, I'm like a cool dad, I'll let her have ice cream. And she literally stopped and looked at me like this is a trap, right? That it's that. Like, what do you mean I could do whatever I want? This is this is a trap, right? If I do whatever I want, something bad's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

And it was no rigid rules, you can't operate within the rigid rules, yeah. But apply that to an anxiety disorder because they get that an anxiety disorder gives you rigid rules. Yep. Now I have no rules. And this is what I talk about about that it can be a comfort. Now, some people may be listening going, you're on the mic be a comfort. Anxiety feels horrible. What the hell are you talking about? But actually, it's a comfort in its predictability and the rules that it sets you. Oh, I can't go to that place because I'm gonna panic. Oh, I can't do that just because I can't leave that alone because the stakes are too high. Yeah, or I can't ignore that because I need to research and and and better myself. Well, remove those rules. What do you do?

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Which is intimidating. You're right. The Kierkegaard reference is correct. He's not a stoic, but I'll allow it. And I think he because the free try that's a gaping maw with no rules, it's free form. Because anxiety told me what to do every minute of the day. I didn't have to think for myself, I just followed along the fear. It told me what to do, so I did that. Now I have all these choices, and that's intimidating sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Yeah, it's almost like if you ever get that frozen in the headlights when someone says, tell me your favorite joke. I know loads of jokes. I'm like, uh-uh, uh-uh, I don't know. You know, like, or you know, what's the happiest moment of your life? I I my brain just doesn't know where to go. Yeah, too many. I'm frozen. You give me the freedom to do to to kind of I I don't know. I get that anyway. I don't know if other people do.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Oh, I think a lot of people do. I've been out socially with people who I can't come to this restaurant anymore. Why? Is there something wrong? The menu is too big. They they literally will find I mean listen, it's not a horrible problem to have, but it's not a good restaurant if the menu's too big.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

The menu's too big.

SPEAKER_04 16:02

I don't mean physically big, there's too many choices. I they have like, oh, I don't know what to pick. There's too many choices. So that is a real thing for a lot of people. And a formally anchored menu is too physically big.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

Like here's the menu stuff. And and you've got to step back 20 feet just to start reading it.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

Yeah, yeah. They pull it around like an engine, you know, the engine hoist. They have to lift it up. Too many choices on the menu. A lot of people will feel intimidated by that. I have decision paralysis now. So for a formally anxious person with no rules to follow, that's an excellent point. We we did an episode of, I don't know, it was either the the panic part or the anxious truth where we talked about when anxiety becomes your identity. So you can wind up in a situation where suddenly you feel like you have a bit of a loss of identity or a minor identity crisis. Who am I if I'm not the anxious person? If I'm not waffling on about my anxiety or waving the advocacy flag or being into mental health, if I don't have to do that, then now what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Who am I? Yeah. That's a real thing. Yeah, yeah, it's so important. I mean, we must talk about how epis episodes and windows like this, and if you are someone who gets anxious about not being anxious, this is confronting and revealing to how much you have been compulsing for years. Now, I'm not saying that uh accusatory, this is where I it was confronting for me because I want to do a little separate episode on the default thought, but like your default thoughts and behaviors all this time have been probably around how you feel and around the scary what ifs. And suddenly you're presented in a situation where you've probably compulsing then, but you're not anxious, you're like, oh, this habit and it and it's not landing. Yeah, it just goes to show how often you check in and ruminate and go inwards, and how long you've been doing that for. And so when you're presented with an opportunity where you get a where you get a haul pass to be like, you can do whatever you want, you know, you can you're not anxious now, you can look at the trees or read a book or go see friends, scotch free. Then scotch free? Is that have I got that right? Anyway, when that's uh scot-free, sorry. Don't edit that out. People need to see I'm not in the infallible.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

Damn, my illusion is shattered.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Because they definitely think that. Uh obviously not. Uh, but yeah, that's that's really quite unnerving. It's like, wow, uh I'm rusty at this.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

I love that. I never thought about that. That's like the ice skating analogy or the roller skating or the treadmill analogy, or the boat analogy. You can use any of those. You're still I love when you said you're still compulsing, but that's got nowhere to go. There's no application for that. It's like when you get off the treadmill and you still feel like you're on a treadmill and you have and ooh, that feels weird, or you walk off a boat and it's like, oh, it feels like I'm still on a boat. Your body is still doing the old thing, but it now, oh, wait, I don't have to do that anymore. I can adjust again. It's exactly that.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

That's so absolutely. And the people who then continue to compulse because that's their habit, then that will trigger anxiety again. Yeah, so don't worry. Oh, it's back again. Well, yeah, because you're doing some really good work and you're getting these windows of anxiety, um, kind of peace. And then because we don't really know what to do in these windows, we just default to our habits, the default thought, etc. And don't be surprised if the amygdala and things go, oh, right. Well, something must be up then because I'm not giving you anxiety, but you're still behaving like you're anxious. So I suppose I'm needed here. Have some adrenaline and cortisol. Amygdala.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

Yeah. That worked out perfectly. Is that a time that right? That was good. That scared me. That's you. I think that's you're right, because I'm going to keep compulsing because it seems like that's the whole thing. If I stop doing this, that's not right. This serves a purpose. This keeps me safe. Interestingly, I think we're talking a lot, we're always talking a lot about people who experience things like panic attacks or agoraphobia. But what I find is people that are making a lot of progress with their GAD or those excessive like rumination habits suddenly discover, oh, I don't, I'm not doing that so much anymore. But once in a while they have that little bit of identity crisis because now I'm not the problem solver. I'm not, I'm not the fixer. I'm not aren't I supposed to still be that? And sometimes it gets triggered again. That's really normal too, if that happens.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, same with OCD, those with pure O, or any really pure O or any OCD somatic, or whether you're a checker, door handle checker, oven checker, plug checker.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Suddenly you're like, well, there was comfort in that routine. I don't get me wrong, I didn't feel comfortable, I didn't like it. I wanted to shortcut my way out of uncertainty. But it's like my the brain's like, where do I go now? And that's why you always practice what non-anxious you would do.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Really start to picture it. Imagine what you would do. You could all almost like curate it, even sometimes even with a pen and paper, which I've said in the past, and this is my podcast. Like, I've sat down with clients and gone, let's write down five minutes by five minutes what you would do in a day if you weren't anxious.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Uh and that helps if you are getting these windows of peace, like, oh, I don't know what to do. Look what you wrote down. Actually, I really wanted to go for that walk over that meadow. I've always wanted to go over there. I want to go bird watching, you know. I want to listen to that audiobook. You know, actually, I might take a trip in into town and undo these things. And that gives you some direction when you have meandering in that window of oh my god, I've been so anxious for so long, and now I'm not anxious. Rather than getting back on the hamster wheel, I'm gonna. learn that I can just explore everywhere around the hamster wheel and far away from it.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

Yeah. I love that idea. Like writing out a plan, you know, these are the things I really want to be able to do again. Then go to the plan. But it's also really normal, I think, the anxious about not being anxious or common for people to be anxious about not being anxious because they I don't want this to go away. Another expression I hear of that is I'm suddenly feeling better and but I'm frozen because I feel like if I try new things, this is such a fragile state of peace or like recovery feeling that I'm afraid of it because anything can break it and I'll go back I'll go back to where it was. So that's another expression.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah yeah like like you've you're enjoying you about a lucid dream like a really cool one. Yep. And I when I'm in a lucid dream and I'm conscious that I'm in a lucid dream I get really excited. So I'm like I don't want this to end because I'm in a lucid dream. Yeah and I can fly and I can conjure anything I want because I'm in my own brain but I'm really on eggshell because I don't want to wake up. I'm like this is the most fun you can ever have and then you get too excited and then you wake up. It's a quite a good analogy for that window of oh my God I'm not anxious. I don't want this to stop. Yeah. Oh well maybe I should surround myself in bubble wrap and cotton wool so I can maintain this. Well that is not the practicing the willful tolerance of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 23:25

And that's what probably got you to the other state the wrapping you're like oh I better treat myself as I'm fragile. It got you to the place we're trying to get out of so that I love the idea of like make a plan, write it down, put some goals on a piece of paper. So when you find yourself with nothing anxious to do try those things. But that could be triggering for people who say ooh but if I do that it might push me back to square one or it's going to ruin this feeling I want it to last. You know what sometimes I think it's okay too if you have just been in knots all the time every day for a long time and you suddenly find that you have an afternoon of peace if you kind of want to sit in the sofa and just like bask in the peace go for it. I would not take that away enjoy it. You earned it you deserve it it's fine enjoy it.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Yeah why not uh which leads me to the question like is it okay to be a bit annoyed and resentful when the window ends and trigger it again yeah you're gonna get more I I remember doing that just getting annoyed like oh I had peace for a bit but hold on to the peace and make it your aim to be like well I want more of those and I'm gonna extend the time in those because that's that's the default I want that's that's the the view to a life that you can get where you can just sit there and be bored. Yeah and I think anxious people are not very good at being bored.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

No no we suck at it. That was a big problem for me. And I I think people it's not only like okay to be upset it's exp if you weren't upset when the piece gets shattered because you don't wake up one morning and suddenly discover I'm I'm not anxious and I'm never anxious ever it doesn't work that way. You're gonna start to have these little glimpses or windows or whatever you want to call them where you feel good and then you'll hate it. If you didn't get upset or have some emotional reaction when you go back to the anxious state some that's the default would be to be upset about that. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

And that applies to all uh emotions as you say Drew like all emotions are transient even the good ones.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

Yeah I love being excited and happy but then that's gonna end can I be disappointed like oh yesterday was such a good day today I'm struggling yeah sure it's normal to feel disappointed about that.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

We've had that yeah like I've been excited to go to a party or a gig and you're excited the whole day and actually you turn up to the gig of the party and you start yawning because you're like oh I'm really tired. And then you get a bit annoyed at that you're like oh why am I so tired now? And I was looking forward to this. Yeah it's okay to have that but but know that you can still re-engage and it's all right because it's not a big problem.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

But the anxious over not being anxious it's so weird because sometimes it's the analog to the I keep thinking I'm never going to recover. Like you're literally recovering but you keep thinking that you're not going to recover so you act on the thought instead of the reality. The same thing applies here. Like you are literally experiencing the state that you've been asking for for a year but instead of experiencing the state you're already past the state to when it's shattered and you're back to square one. So it it's easy to like I I see people who get nervous about this because I know it's not gonna I know it's not gonna last and I can't bear when it goes away again.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

And who's gonna capitalize on that? Oh 100% it's Craig the critic you're doing it wrong so not working you have your window you're literally experiencing no anxiety probably as a result of your hard work and then it ends and it will end. It might last for 10 seconds it might last for 10 hours. Yep do not allow Craig the critic to chime in with see you're not recovering you can't do it. What's the point?

SPEAKER_04 27:01

Yeah ignore that a good analogy for that is if you have someone you love in your life whoever that happens to be a friend a partner a child and they're super excited because they've been practicing this new song on their guitar for for months and they get it would you what would you say to them? You would help them enjoy the moment it wouldn't be like well enjoy while it lasts because you're gonna suck again tomorrow you would never say that to your friend or your partner or your child but yet you will let Craig say that to you what a miserable horrible right like nobody everybody's probably like no that would be terrible yes but anxious people will do that to themselves sometimes this isn't gonna last what's the point you know like oh it's not fair no you can you can enjoy and just again to reiterate it's very common yeah if you're having these you're on your way yeah it's all right and you're allowed to be like oh dang it when it passes that's very human.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Do not let Craig the Craig step in and be like oh they see this is a bigger problem and try not to hyperanalyse and ruminate that about that window. Yeah don't be like oh what did I do? Was there something magical I did in the buildup to that? Was it because I did this was it because I did that no sometimes it's just an amalgamation of all good things and sometimes your anxious response just turns off and enjoy that. Practice practice in all states how important is that practice in all states that's exactly Ohio Florida Mississippi in all states of emotion and levels of anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

I like to say all the time all states are permissible which is a hard thing. They are because they're gonna happen I like that yeah they are they've been enjoyable but permissible because they're gonna happen. That was me though I admittedly and this is so funny because I can freely call myself out the guy that talks so much about acceptance and like going with the flow and being mindful and accepting life for what it is big stoic philosopher that I am when I would have those moments I would get caught in like what did I do? Yesterday I went to bed at 9 30 and I did fall asleep so I have to do that again. I would try to recreate and it never worked. No. Yeah I had to learn that lesson the hard way it's okay. No how come I'm never not gonna laugh at that well the the screaming eagle I it's never gonna it's never not screaming eagle oh jeez I'm hallucinating it's never not funny to me.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

I'm easily entertained though so so yeah if this is you and you're anxious about not being anxious it's a common phenomenon it's a good stepping stone to be on try not to compulse try not to go in once try not to and you it's okay to feel lost and it's super important to tap into what non-anxious you would do and it's a skill and you practice it you're building new habits and it is a window to show you that yeah this this is a place you can be so you know if this has applied to you I hope it resonates um I we we we'd like to take your questions and celebrate anyways um what should what should we look at we have well we have an audio question should we play that I know you have a couple things to read out let's go back to the audio how's that okay hi my name is David um to you Josh is a question to differentiate between willful tolerance and willing tolerance is there a difference uh because in the past I've always practiced using willing and acceptance and I just wonder if the two are related or if there is a difference and if so what is the difference thank you that is an outstanding question. Great question David uh yeah uh willing and willful tolerance no I think that's you know two two sides of the same coin one is more of a tense issue isn't it like I you know I I did that with willful tolerance I did that willfully or I am doing this willingly same thing it's okay I'm willingly tolerating this right now I'm practicing it as a skill as willful tolerance uh but the second part of the question was the difference between willful tolerance and willing acceptance um I get it it's a matter of semantics what works for you if you if the acceptance worked for you that's great I never really use the word acceptance some people like it but I usually find it's quite vague because to accept something kind of implies that we're at peace with it and I think a lot of people with anxiety are never really at peace with feeling that horrible but you can tolerate something or like some like a screaming child on public transport. You know you can ex you know oh I accept this or well I can tolerate it you know that's okay rather than I'm at peace and I accept the screaming child. No, it's it it's a bit different. What do you what do you think Drew?

SPEAKER_04 31:49

I'm with you on that the acceptance thing I have gotten a little bit of hate sometimes because it feels like I'm picking on Claire Weeks. I'm not I love Dr. Weeks but to me the accepting thing it almost implies the word acceptance willing acceptance means I it implies that I have a choice to not accept it. And in our context you have no choice not accepting anxiety is an absolute moot point. I refuse to accept it. Okay but it's here anyway. So tell me what you're gonna do about that now. What does not accepting even mean operationally and so I think willing tolerance or willful tolerance is an action you take. And it's it doesn't involve a feeling acceptance implies that I can choose not to or I'll have a feeling of acceptance whereas tolerance isn't a feeling tolerance is a verb it's an action. Yes yeah that's a great answer it's much more concrete but they're all under the same umbrella whatever works for you whatever semantics there's no there's no different magical technique that we're using here it's more uh of an attitude and go back to the attitude shift episode if if you kind of really want to uh explore that a bit more I think the word willing is the most important part of this question because without that and that's the attitude shift I'm gonna go do a hard thing because I'm willing to do it so that I can learn as opposed to well these guys tell me to just do the things so I'm doing the things but if there's no willingness to do it you're hoping you won't be anxious kind of missed the point. So that's the most important word what tense you use who cares whatever works.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah that's a great question great question yep thank you um I we we had a good did it anyway sent in a really good one uh I'm gonna read it out cool uh they've not said I could use their name so but I'm just gonna read out anyway um hey guys so first I just want to say thank you to both of you I'm 33 years old now but I've had anxiety for the better part of the last decade in the beginning of 2022 however is when my OCD and anxiety really started to be relentless. I was at the lowest point in my life I ended up leaving a work from home job that I loved I was afraid to be alone and when my husband wasn't home I would be at my parents monophobia there. I wasn't eating sleeping and was non existent and was in a constant state of panic. I started to look for any answers to that could help me and I somehow managed to find you first drew. I listened to the first episode of your podcast I had seen and I won't lie at first I thought you were truly insane well there's some merit in that however each day I kept going and listening and learning the secret in the recovery sauce. I began by driving as much as I could alone I started staying home alone and that's when things started to get a little better. Last year around August I took a job as a barista in a coffee shop close to home. I had always wanted to try it but due to my anxiety and fear of working in the public I never did. In my mind I was like getting paid to do exposure therapy win win. I stayed at that job for a while and it was a really big turning point in my life. Fast forward to now me and my husband are back to to being host parents my host son now is from Germany and it's such a blast to have him in the home. I'm working in the public full time in guest relations what? Wow to put in brackets and I absolutely love my life I was so scared of my own reflection in the mirror when my fear was at its worst and now I let life have zero limitations. The same OCD and crazy thoughts I once feared are now comical to me most days. I've embraced every part of this journey some days I still feel the panic some days I still just want to stay home but I don't I do it anyway every single time P.S. I know this is super long I think I just need to share my joy with two people who really truly understood oh I I love that one so much.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

That's an excellent one really great you know my favorite part of that one this is not self-serving but I thought you were truly insane I appreciate that person's willingness to say this seems ridiculous but I tried everything else so I'm gonna I'm gonna take a chance for me. Has nothing to do with Drew. I love that she did that for herself and that in the end it worked out for her. That's so important.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Well done and even the little steps there in embracing the philosophy and and well done and my favorite part of that was the Drew being insane but where's the lie?

SPEAKER_04 36:20

I don't see a lie there. So you know it is what it is. That was great. Thank you for sharing do we have another one or no was that it I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Uh that's the one I've got now you're supposed to get the other one Drew God I completely I'm gonna get fired after this episode for sure I do not have another one to be completely please don't you're on your final warning keep sending them in uh we love them whether they're written whether they're voice notes uh we love to play them um thank you for everyone who's pre-ordered and how does that make you feel um it's a book about being an anxiety therapist working with four different clients with anxiety disorders so if you want to know what goes on in my mind when I'm working with them uh pre-order it let me know send me an email and I will answer any question you have if you're not already sick of my voice.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

That's the best description I've ever heard you give of that book.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

Should say that all the time because that's that was off the cuff.

SPEAKER_04 37:11

That was really good. Yeah I'll play it back for you you should just say that all the time because it makes me want to read it and I already have okay okay give me some marketing stuff afterwards some marketing advice anyway guys thanks so much for listening appreciate it and uh I guess we'll see you in the next one.

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Thanks guys we're out