"Temping Fate" In Anxiety Recovery? (Episode 140)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello guys, my name's Susan. I'm from Ireland and I love your podcast. Thank you so much for what you guys do. I hope everyone had a lovely Christmas. Um, I just have a question, really. Um and it's about that feeling that I get whenever I think about talking to a friend and saying that I'm feeling better from anxiety. It makes me feel anxious, even if I'm if I'm feeling good, and then I think about talking to my friend saying I'm feeling good, then it makes me feel anxious and it's almost like a jinx. Like I'm scared to say that I'm feeling better. It's really annoying. Um and I was wondering if you had any experience or sort of what that is. Yeah, that's my question. Again, thank you guys for everything that you do and a very happy new year to everybody. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

It feels like you're tempting fate. If I say I'm doing all right, am I then gonna jinx myself, like Susan said? Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 140. Is that right, Drew? 140? Yeah, that is correct. Thank you. Uh, and this uh thank you for the question there from Susan. The title of this episode is Anxiety and Tempting Fate. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer, uh, co-host of this wonderful podcast, and I write books and yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

And I'm joined by uh I am Drew Linsolata, the other half of Disordered, also a therapist that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, and a former sufferer of these things, and an author, and all of those things. And uh yeah, today we're gonna talk about tempting. I don't I don't feel like doing the intro today. So today we're gonna talk about tempting fate. If you've listened to 139, yeah, go back and listen to any of the other ones, you know who the hell we are. But uh today we're gonna talk about the idea that like people get a little bit nervous about tempting fate with their recovery or their anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

I love this question from Susan. It's something I can relate to personally. I used to get like mini-triggered with my anxiety, even when I was doing going in a good place, like Susan. But then once when even by the question, how are you? And actually, I've been having the best day, the best few days I've had in a long time, desensitized, not obsessing about my symptoms, not obsessing about the what if thoughts, not reassurance seeking, compulsing, just living my life, big windows of feeling desensitized. And someone would come along and say, How are you doing? But because I've spent so long in a sensitized state and so long with anxiety, it feels like you're tempting fate. A bit like, well, if I say I'm doing all right, is this gonna be Sod's law? Am I then gonna jinx myself? Like Susan said, I feel like I jinx it. So if no one says anything, then it's fine. Uh, and I love this, I love exploring the superstition because it's actually got a few layers to it, and I thought it'd be a really good topic for today. So whether you're wherever you are on your path to desensitization, um, then whether you're just starting out and you're just having small windows where you're feeling okay, or maybe you're just really sensitized, but you've just suddenly been distracted and feel like you're okay, and someone asks you how you're doing, or whatever. Um, today's episode will be an interesting topic because it it brings up a few emotions that like, ooh, is it okay to say I'm doing all right? What about you, Drew? Can you relate?

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Yeah, I could definitely relate. Uh, I'm not sure that I had as much of a super I did there's so many different parallel things that happen in this, right? There's a little bit of superstition, and some people are, and that's okay if you're superstitious, or they have a different type of spiritual beliefs. They're a little bit nervous about I can speak things into existence. I hear that, and that's fine if that's your belief. I'm not here to you know to take that away from you. But for me, it was a little bit more attention driven. So tempting faith for me was like, oh, don't make me think of it, don't make me pay attention to how I feel. I literally had to tell my people, don't ask me how I feel. Please do not ask me how I feel. It was really the weirdest thing. And they were like, huh? You know, because it seems like a natural thing for your friends and family, loved ones to ask how you're doing. They're concerned. I'm like, don't ask me that question. I just didn't want to like have my focus go on how I was feeling again. Because if it did, oh damn it. Then it was just off to the races. I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna get stuck in it. Don't ask me that. Don't make me think about it. No, no, no, I can't hear you, I can't hear you. You know, so it was a little bit of an avoidance thing for me, I think. With that in mind, how are you doing today, Drew? Oh, don't ask me that. I have to end. That's it. I can I can't. Do you know what? I'm doing fine today. Why can I say that? Because I it's not gonna trigger me into like going inward for the next two hours and like really paying attention to every thought and sensation I have.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah, that plays a part. For me personally, it was um because I'd spent so long being anxious, agrophobic, OCD, health anxiety, whatever. Um, and my friends and loved ones knew about that, and they it was you know, it was a well-documented journey through it all. Um, and I think when loved ones ask that, they're like, Oh, how are you doing now? I would get that jolt, like Susan. Like, but then remember the golden rules always apply. My golden rules in my practice are do what non-anxious you would do, and golden rule number two is what I'm doing, teaching the brain that anxiety is okay. But so if I start acting like, oh, that's that's superstitious. Am I tempting fate? What if I say yes and then in an hourless time I'm not okay? Then I've told everyone I'm okay and I'm not. No, what you can say is yeah, I'm doing all right. And if you really want to caveat it, I'm doing right at the moment. I say that with my clients all the time. That's fact. How are you doing? I'm doing great at the moment. At the moment. That's you cannot dispute that, you know, or you can just say, I'm doing great. Yeah, you're not saying I'm doing great, and therefore I will always be great, and therefore I'm immune to every emotion that I that I don't like. No, just like I'm doing all right, but it's very common, and particularly those because people with OCD and anxiety and stuff, they get very superstitious, you know, they believe in things, outrageous things because the brain doesn't want to lose that. But um, yeah, I found that tempting fate, being able to let go of a state that you've been in for so long, it feels very weird to be like, yeah, I'm not in that state anymore.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah, you get those eyes shifting, like, hmm, I I think I'm okay. Am I allowed to say that? And I think what's interesting too is when you say, like, yeah, you got to teach the brain that anxiety is okay. So it's not even about the superstition. If you have a superstition that, like, if I speak it, it might happen. If I say I'm doing okay, it's gonna jinx it. Fine. Go ahead, jinx it then. Like the idea that, like, oh, I should never do anything to make that anxiety come back, or I should I can't have it come back is the wrong lesson. Now, it's okay to want to continue to have a nice day. We want you to have a nice day too, as you know, two human beings do another. But you have to be really careful about going into that mode, like I did, which wasn't superstitious, it was more attention driven. Don't make me think about that because I can't have that. If it comes back, I can't have that. No, actually, I kind of needed to come back and practice with it sometimes, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:31

So there's there's many faces to tempting fate, isn't there? There really is.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Um, should we hear from the community before we talk more about tempting fate?

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Again, should we do an audio did it anyway or a written did it anyway? What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 7:42

Well, you sent me a written one and I've not read it yet, so we can get it off the cuff, shall we? Shall I just read it off the cuff?

SPEAKER_03 7:48

Let's do it. I could have totally sabotaged Josh here. Let's see.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Okay, here we go. This is from Chris. This is a Did It Anyway. Feel free to mention my name. Thanks, Chris. Thank you for reading my story from last summer. It was encouraging and validating to hear it on your podcast. Since then, I've gone completely off uh lamicto. Is that am I saying that right, Drew? Lamictal? Yep.

SPEAKER_03 8:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Yeah, I've gone completely off lamictol about three months ago after a long and careful taper. Well, being completely off medication is definitely much, much more difficult than having at least a little bit in the system. But thankfully, I've been through tapers and withdrawals before, just nothing this intense. Fortunately, I've I had the wisdom and experience to slow down my life in anticipation of this recovery period. I cut my work schedule in half and now work exclusively from home, which gives me much more breathing space for recovery. The withdrawal was so bad that even though I love my work and it's a mostly stress-free job, within a couple of minutes of starting work I would be completely frazzled. Everything feels overwhelming and puts my system into overdrive, and then I crash, exercise, socializing, watching TV, and so on. But here's the kicker. I know recovery will happen in time, so so long as I don't get I don't get in the way. By reading your books, both of you guys, I've learned to stop fighting the panic, anxiety, etc. I've learned to live within my current capacity. I've also found encouragement in hearing that you, Drew, as well as others in medication withdrawal support groups, have recovered fully in time. Friends, work, joy, exercise, even romance are all present in my life currently, just in more manageable amounts. Every day I ask myself, what would non-anxious me do? Love that. And right now, the answer is usually as little as possible. I've I'm now undoing the bad habits that led to the mental breakdown that led me to taking meds on top of recovering from meds. But every day I show up and trust in the process, and little by little, I feel slightly more recovered.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Oh man. Good job, Chris, and thank you for sharing. I would like to say, as somebody who lived that experience along like in Chris going to work and immediately being underwater this minute you walk in, I get that. Live that too. That was no small feat. So good job, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Well done, Chris. Great story. I love that. You know, keep going, keep going. And um, recovery or desensitization, whatever you want to call it, keep going. You're doing the right things.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Yep, absolutely. Uh, just a programming note, then I would say people ask us a lot to talk about meds, and we tend not to because we got to make sure we stay within our scope of practice, if you will. And we'll try and get somebody on, maybe a psychiatrist to talk about that. I did talk about my experience in three podcast episodes like three years ago, and that's all I'm gonna say about it. So I'll link those in the show notes. If you guys want to listen to what I went through, I said it once, I ain't gonna say it again because we can't have that conversation.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

Yeah, we can't do really because you can't overrule your physicians, we don't want to get sued. Um, I and it's very individual kind of rule. My but my basic rule on medication is you know, if you're depressed and you've got you haven't got enough oomph to get on with your life and do exposures and be, you know, have enough energy to lean into not compulsing, then yeah, you know, there's a place for that. You know, you don't want to be depressed, and medication can have a role in that. Um, I'm not really a fan of benzos in my experience, but I'm not gonna tell you whether to take them or not.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Um, but there's a reason why in the UK you don't get benzos for anxiety disorders. Yeah. So take from that what you wish.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

No, I got it. And here too, where they're getting harder to get, and for good reason. So my mind on that, and then we'll move on, is doable if you take them, doable if you don't. Like it doesn't, I'm agnostic. Walk in the door in my therapy practice, you want to be on meds? No problem. We can work at it. You're not not on meds, we can work on it too. So it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Yeah, always you can always do the work regardless. Yeah, it's all good.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Anyway, um, okay, so tempting fate. Let's go back to our topic today. Here's an interesting thing about the whole like I don't want to tempt fate, or I don't want to don't make me talk about this thing that I'm still afraid to talk about because I might trigger it. There's this surprise me because I didn't I didn't have this in my personal experience, but I'm amazed at how many people, and I think this might be a social media construct, get really worried because when somebody asks them, How are you doing? the answer is a pretty good number at the moment, maybe. But they don't want to say that because they don't want to tempt fate for whatever reason, superstition, attention, whatever, they're still afraid of the anxiety. But not answering the question is inauthentic. Or sometimes we have people who are feeling really bad, like they're still in the middle of it. It's a very anxious day. And when somebody says, How are you doing? they don't want to say, Oh, I'm so anxious today, I feel like I'm crawling out of my so they don't want to really say that. They don't, they just want to do the I'm okay. But then they would be lying, and again, they are not authentic. So there's a real streak of like, no, I want to show up as the authentic me. So I really want to answer the question. If I don't, I have a double whammy here. I'm lying, I'm inauthentic, and I might trigger anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I've not seen much of that. I don't really go on the Insta that much, though.

SPEAKER_03 13:03

But like, well, the that word authenticity. Um I mean, I'm I have there's nothing scientific here, but authenticity is a word that in the last five or ten years as social media and influencer as a career became a thing. Show up as the authentic, you authentic, every new platform. This is the authentic conversation platform. That words nauseating awful and it gets drilled into people, and then they feel like, oh, but I'm not being authentic if I don't answer the question completely, transparently on demand and really.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

But the irony is when you set up a phone on a tripod in a well-lit room. Thank you. It's not being authentic, really, is it? Unless that the authentic you is to be neurotic and sort solipsistic, then therefore it is authentic. You are an unneurotic, solipsistic, self-centered person. Therefore, yeah. Anyway, I'm not gonna go on that.

SPEAKER_03 13:54

No, I get it, but we we've elevated authenticity to like uh avert, I mean a virtue. Like, okay, well, but that's hang on a second, like maybe it is to a certain extent, but I'm amazed at the number of people who struggle with that. I don't want to speak about it because I'm afraid to trigger it, but then I'm not being authentic or I'm hiding, or I'm not showing up, or I'm lying, or my that's it does make me feel bad to I don't want to lie to people.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

That can happen. I I liked uh when I was studying to be a therapist, I read um the books, Humanistic Theory Um by Mearns and Thorne, and they speak about something called configurations of self, and that authenticity is an amalgamation of all your configurations of self. So, like me chilling out with my grandmother is still me, and I'm being authentic with my grandmother. I'm not trying to pretend I'm someone I'm not, right? But that same person, you know, it's gonna be different from who me hanging out with my friends, yeah, or me hanging out with a lot another person, or me at work being a therapist. I'm authentic in all of those because they're different configurations. But as you know, social media just likes to pigeonhole, simplify, and it's just yeah, anyway. If you're someone who gets caught up in that, yeah, just just don't, just don't. There's no singularity to aim towards. That's why I ban the word recovery because it's singularity, authenticity is a singularity. No, we're in the business of encouraging flexibility. That's right, variables are welcome, different states are welcome. Don't chase a singularity.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

And I would uh, you know, not to spend too much time on this, but notice the difference between I am going to tell a lie or omit something very important for some specific gain or to harm somebody or get an edge on somebody or or win, and the other person has to lose. Okay, that's one context in which maybe you do want to be truthful and authentic. I I I hear you, but their context does matter. In Dracha's grandma example, if I'm talking to my grandma, I don't need to tell my grandma that I'm really struggling with DPDR. She doesn't need to hear that. I don't need her to be burdened with that, maybe in my opinion. So I might be inauthentic. Go ahead. If it makes you feel bad to be inauthentic for three minutes, go ahead and feel bad. You'll get over it. I promise.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Like your life will not end.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Anyway, it's a it's a weird thing that comes up in this topic that I surprised me. So I wanted to bring it up.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Fair enough. You get that on there. Yeah, you get out of there. Tempting fate. Well, today Josh and Drew says I need to leave this alone. This intrusive thought about me doing something bad, maybe leaving DPDR alone, maybe doing stuff anyway with the anxiety. But isn't that just tempting fate, leaving it alone?

SPEAKER_03 16:37

Yeah, that's another one of those questions. That's a good tempting fate question. But but then I'm but I uh am I avoiding then if I leave it alone? Like, shouldn't I be addressing this problem? Or but if I don't do something about it, the bad thing will happen, right? I will snap. If I don't hang on so tight when I'm feeling DPDR, it will be tempting fate. If I let go, like I will disintegrate or snap or have a psychotic break. I know, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Absolutely. Health anxiety, big one. Great book on health anxiety, by the way. Go check it out. The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety, available on Amazon by Disordered Press. Um, tempting fate. I know I've checked this symptom 50,000 times, and I know I should leave it alone, but is that not tempting fate? Yeah, the one time I don't check. Maybe then it is. Maybe I do have all these diseases that I thought I did. But that's tempting fate, surely.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Ah, that's a really I didn't expect us to talk about this. I love that you brought that up. It's so it's not just like answering the question, how are you doing? It is letting go. If I let go, if I surrender, if I decide to willfully tolerate, I stop resisting, I just let it roll. Yeah, that will feel risky and reckless and like I'm tempting fate. You know, but what if I do start pounding on the door of the cockpit on the flight and they have to restrain me and duct take me to a seat? Or what if I do actually run and try and open the plane door at 35,000 feet? I'm tempting fate if I don't control myself and hang on so tight.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Oh, yeah. OCD, harm OCD, any harm O C D ones? Yeah. I've often sat in my practice and be like, you know, put put a kitchen knife on the table in front of the client. Yeah. You know, I said, move closer to the knife. That's tempting fate.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yeah, yeah. And it's so people do not understand this kind of work. I think in so many ways, it would look weird. The first time I ever handed my scissors to a to a client who has had these horrible thoughts that she was secretly homicidal. And I'm like, Go ahead, point them at me. Like, go ahead. I I trust you 100%. I'm not scared at all. Anybody looking in the door of you handing your person a knife or me handing the scissors would be like, Yeah, what is this insanity? Arrest these men quickly. But oh, yeah, loads of them contamination OCD.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah, contamination OCD is one. I per remember once with my clients at contamination OCD, they have tempting fate all the time. I purposely dropped my sandwich on the floor and then picked it up and ate it. Yeah. And if you've seen my office, it is I mean, that's that that's patient zero for someone.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

It is one step above oil change pit at the local car dealership. Uh but you know what's so funny is in the topic of tempting fate, we don't see it that way. Now, back in the day, we might have seen it as tempting fate, but like I know an anxious person will see it as like, oh, but at that doubt, what if it does come true? I'm tempting fate. This is too risky to do that. We Josh and I don't see a risk at all. I'll hand you the scissors, he'll eat the sandwich, it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Susan, how are you doing today? And rationally, Susan, you know, the past week's been great. How are you doing, Susan? You want to say you're okay, but that's tempting fate.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

I know. So go ahead and you know, it's so weird in the end. You guys gotta be tired of listening to us after a while because it always comes down to the same thing. Go ahead and tempt fate. Go ahead, tempt it. Do it, say it. Yeah, yeah. I'm doing good at the moment. Yeah, I love at the moment. You know, I really do love at the moment. I'm gonna start to use that because it's an acknowledgement that, like, I don't know, see me in 10 minutes. Maybe I'll be feeling really crappy. I don't know. That's right. Yeah, but right now, yeah, at the moment, I'm pretty good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it's almost like tempting for I think that there's like different layers to it as well, because for some people, and I don't know, Susan, but I know this is uh it's happens for me as well. Yeah, uh, there was an undertone of judgment and shame underneath it. So if I tell people like I'm doing well, yeah, I'm feeling embarrassed for a future version of me that isn't doing well. I don't want to be the person that's constantly going, Oh, I'm great now, I'm not great now. I'm great now, I'm not great now, over and over again. And I don't want to be seen as that. There's like a layer of shame with that. Um, and so therefore, and bear in mind we're in we're we're in the business of all feelings of welcome. When I go out to see friends or go family or just live my life, and maybe I'm not doing that great that day, in the context of an anxiety disorder, I always say, Yeah, I'm doing all right, you know, feel a bit on edge today, but in general, I judge it over the last week or month. Yeah, but if every time someone asks me, Am I doing how am I doing, and I judge my entire being, persona, my journey, on you asking me in that moment, you know, and let's say I'm eight out of ten anxious, how are you doing? And if I just judge that one second window of how I'm feeling, well, I feel like crap. Then that's not actually accurate, is it? Because that whole day I could have been feeling great. So if I'm feeling great all day and I go out and I'm a bit anxious at a music gig, and someone asks me how I'm doing, I'm actually gonna say I'm doing okay because I know this feeling will pass. It is not an indicator or a symbol of how I'm doing overall, and it's interesting. You said about authenticity because that is me being authentic. But if I measure and my metrics of success are measured in those tiny windows of someone asking me how am I doing and I'm anxious, and I say, I'm not doing well because I'm anxious, I'm actually also signaling to the brain that anxiety is not okay, and it means I'm not doing okay. So my default answer is always yes, in the context of anxiety disorders. Don't get me wrong, over Christmas time and stuff, I got a bit down about other things. You know, I get better, I get down about things in my life that have nothing to do with anxiety disorders. And when people ask me how I'm doing, I'm like, you know what? I'm struggling a bit with grief today. You know what? Actually, things are stressful at work. That's okay. But in the context of fear of fear and anxiety desensitization, I most almost always default to, I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

That's really great. I mean, we can that expands even beyond, I think, anxiety disorders. So, like, this is philosophical. The question, how are you doing, I think indicates how we um we automatically sort of societally societally, at least in the West, if I ask you, hey man, how you doing? I'm probably socialized to hope that your answer is I feel great. Because we are automatically judging. I want my friends to feel great. I don't want them to feel bad. But really, if I want to put my therapist hat on for a second and be in the all emotions are allowed psychological flexibility camp, I want my friend Josh to be able to say, it doesn't really matter how I feel. It matters my ability to be with the experience.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Sorry, what did you say, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Why am I reminding you? Oh my god, I totally lost it. Whose dancers matter? It doesn't matter how I feel. It matters Okay, let's do that.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Let's do that again. All right. Hey Drew, in the context of your anxiety disorder, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_03 23:55

That's true. Because I want to be able to say I might be having what I would call a negative experience right now, but I am comfortable with my ability to be with that experience.

unknown 24:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Let's say you're having a really stressful time at work and there's some sad things that happened. Hi, Drew. In the context of everything, how are you doing today? Well, today's a little challenging, but I can get through it. It's gonna be all right. Oh, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

And what about in the context of your anxiety disorder and fear of fear? How are you doing? Well, I'm feeling a little depersonalized today, but that'll pass, and I don't have to be afraid of that. I can let it ride.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Perfect. There you go. It's a big one. It's also an advantage of having a podcast co-host who is autistic because that question always blew my mind. Yeah. Like, like, how are you doing? And it's like within the context of when and where. Yeah. How am I doing now in this second? How am I doing over the day? How am I doing over the year? What what do you mean? How do you do how are you doing? Yeah, yeah. Like, I I don't know. You know, like I I really don't know. And you're right, I'm conditioned to just say, Yeah, I'm all right, you.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Yeah, right. That's a normal thing. And a lot of people say, like, well, I don't want to tell them the real answer, I just want to do the socially acceptable. I'm fine, thanks. How are you? Yeah, but we could do that too. I mean, if you don't want to tempt fate, you could just go with the social norm, which is how you doing, Josh? I'm good. How are you doing, Drew? I'm good. All right, boom, start recording. Like, we don't really care how each other's doing. And that's right.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Well, just double down on the negative. How are you doing? Um, crushed by the weight of my own consciousness and mortality every waking second.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

How are you doing? I'm it's the what was that stupid Nick Cage movie? By the unbearable weight of massive talent. I'm being crushed by the unbearable weight of massive talent. One of the great movie titles ever, which I've still not seen. But yeah, you're I mean, it's kind of interesting how we say that, but like there's so many different ways that we can see I'm tempting fate. If I say how I'm really doing, what if it makes me feel bad? I can't feel bad. I I can only feel good. No.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Do you know what? I'm not gonna go to the doctor this week for symptom number 1000. You know what? That's gonna tempt fate. And you know what? I'm still not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Yeah. It's so funny because in the context of an anxiety, how many times can we say the word context? It's like a drinking game this episode. So, in the context of an anxiety disorder, what I always say that people say, well, well, recovery means I learned that I'm okay. No, it actually means that you learn that you can stop asking if you're okay. So it doesn't, that's not the question that has to be asked 18 times every hour. So, like we learned that the question was misguided. It's tempting fate is only what it feels like now. Like you're you're saying that based on how your relationship with your internal experiences now. I never feel like I'm tempting fate. If I'm having an anxious day and I go out and do my thing anyway and just bring it with me, there is no part of me that thinks, but I'm tempting fate. I'm gonna lose it in the frozen food section. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

I was thinking about like, and I can relate so much to Susan's question. You almost are like mini-triggered when someone asks, How are you doing? Yeah, why? Because you associate internal focus with threat. Yeah. So when someone says, How are you doing, they have put the notion of going internal to you, and that's going to be pretty uncomfortable because most of the time you associate going internal with compulsions, so threat monitoring, scanning for symptoms, scanning for your feelings, measuring, whatever. And so when someone says, How are you doing? When you go in with Susan, that's normal to feel a bit, but that's okay. Because remember, we're teaching the brain that anxiety is okay. Remember this. In fact, if there's one entry, you know, admission, you know, worth the price of admission on its own, is that when you do go in with Susan, and anyone who can relate to Susan, is that yep, yep, I they've asked me that. Yes, I feel a bit on edge and a little bit triggered. Yes. But I my goal is to teach the brain that anxiety is okay. So my answer is going to be, I'm doing okay. Because what better way to teach the brain that this is okay by saying it's okay, particularly those people who are surrounded by people, loving and caring people, like how are you doing now? Is the anxiety there? Is it not? Is it gone? Are you alright? I'm okay. Yes, I've got yes, I'm spaced out, yes, I'm dizzy, yes, my race, my thoughts are racing, yes, I'm having ectopic heartbeats, yes, but I'm okay. Isn't that the goal? Yes, I'm okay. I don't feel comfortable, but I'm okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Yeah. I have a like a real-world experience that sort of matches what you just said. When you you may have had this problem too. When I was struggling at the worst, it was very hard for me to get my hair cut. And many anxious people will understand that. It's it shows it still is, yeah, right. It has, I've never recovered from that, right? And uh from a hair standpoint. But I think as I wear my hat today as we record, but I think many anxious people will understand that. Hard to get your hair cut, hard to go to the dentist. Like, I can't, I can't be trapped. And I remember I was feeling much better. I was having really great days at that point. I remember, like, okay, it wasn't that big a deal. It wasn't a major disaster to go get my hair cut. I remember walking in, and the woman was cutting my hair at the time, she was very lovely, but she was a little slow, and that's okay. I mean, she didn't, she wasn't a speed demon with those scissors, which was probably good, I guess. But I sat down and she was like, hey, how you doing? And that question, instantly my anxious mind, because those pathways never go away, they just get depreferenced, came up with like, oh my goodness, I have to sit here now for 40 minutes. And then I started to notice like that feels really hard. And I'm feeling a little agitated now. And oh my god, I have to do 40 minutes of this. I got triggered, that mini-trigger thing for 40 minutes to cut your hair. I told you she wasn't fat. She did a great job. I loved her, she moved away.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

She what she what she cut using using to cut the scissors, her drawer to take out the stone and cut the scissors.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

She was just a little slow. I mean, and for me, I remember very thinking like suddenly I noticed I have to sit in this chair for 40 or so minutes that it takes her to do this. And she was great, she would do a great job. But and that was a mini-triggered moment. And I got a little bit like I started to notice, I was agitated, it was simmering, and I'm like, can I deal with this for 40 minutes? I'm gonna lose it. And I had to remind myself like relax into this, like soften into this. It's fine. I'm a little triggered right now, it's gonna pass. I can handle this.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

And sure enough, and that trigger is fine.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Yes, it was totally fine. It was okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah, exactly. I love it. Um let's hear from the community.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Yeah, let's do an audio date anyway, all the way from the other side of the damn world.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Hello, Josh and True. My name is Soxan. I'm from Cambodia, Southeast Asia. And today I just want to share my did it anyway journey. I had anxiety disorders, panic disorders, and agrophobia, alongside with the OCDs and um depressions. Um, but what I had successful in my life as of as of right now, I feel really anxious moving from one place to another from the comfortable zone, especially at my house in my hometown, same with problems. I wanted to came back, you know, come back to Phnom Penh because I had to go to Climp due to my uh class. Um so the day that I had to go was really anxious. I really, really oh my god, I was kind of feeling a natural panic attack that day. But the day that I really went to go to Clumpen, I was just like, I just do it, and my anxiety just came along and played with me, told me what if and this and that, but I don't trust them, I don't trust crafty credits, I I know him. So now I've been in Clumpen, man. I mean like I'm doing well two weeks now, I'm feeling great. Thank you, thank you for for what for what you guys have done. Um, I mean I've been listening to your podcast ever since. Uh without without Josh and True, I know what will happen to me. But you know, my mind is the one that uh trying to play everything is not real and I don't trust it. I just do it and I have done it. Thanks you guys all, and uh I see you guys next time. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 32:41

Damn. I love that. Well done, Soxan. Uh is that the first one we have from Cambodia?

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Disordered around the world. Cambodia in the house. So great. You know what's cool about that?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Well done, Soxan. You do you you've internalized the messages of the podcast. You could hear that in your Did It Anyway, and you sounds like you're on the right path there. So well done, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

This guy shows up. It's Craig the critic. And he sticks his thumb right in his eye. Like I ain't paying attention to you. I'm doing what's important to me. Really great.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Oh, I love it. I love that. And if you want to send in your Did It Anyway, like Soxan, you can do that at disordered.fm wherever you are in the world.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

Absolutely. I want to read one. We'll do one more Did It Anyway. It's a written Did It Anyway. So here we go. This person did not say it's okay to use her name, but she starts with, please read. And I'm happy that I did read. Hey, Josh and Drew, I wanted to send in a huge did it anyway. I used to religiously, I used to listen religiously to your podcast, and slowly have come out the other side of my anxiety disorder. Today I realized I haven't listened in a while. I hope you see that as a win, and we definitely do. My progress was slow and steady over the course of two years of doing it anyway, struggling with panic attacks, emetophobia, anxiety in restaurants, and trouble staying away from home. Bizarrely, what propelled my recovery was going through a horrific breakup where I was dumped two days before a couple's trip to Japan. Ouch. I ended up going anyway, alone and facing every fear I had. I was terrified. I had many anxious wobbles, but I did it anyway, and now I'm on a constant, constant trajectory of if I could do that, I can do anything. Heartbreak sucks, but I haven't had a panic attack in months. So this is me saying that things can get better. Just keep proving to yourself that you can do it anyway, and maybe ask your partner to dump you unexpectedly before a big trip. Thank you for all your help and keep doing what you're doing. Oh that's a new form of therapy. Hey, can you divorce me just before we go on vacation? Because I really need to get better.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Like oh, I love that. It's powerful. Yeah. Oh, oh well done. That's brilliant. And I love it. If I can do that, then I I can uh do this. I think that's brilliant. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Experiential learning for the win, right? Like, hey, I fed my brain a new experience that said, look how capable I am when I thought I wasn't. Turns out it was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Absolutely. Very good.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Are you sure you want to keep on doing that though? You don't want to tempt fate. Oh, I know. Better not better not push it too much. Ah, that's another tempting fate that we can maybe wrap it up with a little bit. How many times have we been told, like, I feel like I'm doing great, but I don't want to overdo it? I don't want to overdo it. I don't want to tempt fate. I don't want to there is no such thing as overdo it. I mean, rest when you got to rest, of course. You don't have to be a recovery machine or desensitization machine, sorry. But uh there's no tempting fate. And like, yeah, but what if I push it too far and then I feel bad? Then it's practice. There's no tempting fate in that. It's okay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Love that. Yeah. Um, thank you for tuning in, everyone. Thank you for those who bought the disordered guide to health anxiety. We really enjoyed that. Um, the community app is out soon. Drew and I are working on that this week. A nice little community to share, did it, anyways, and articles and workshops and disordered roundtables and all that. It's all gonna be in one place uh because we're gonna hang out there. But we will let you know that as soon as it's out. Uh, if you want to be the first to know, you can sign up to just sign up to the newsletter on the website and you'll we'll send out the uh announcement then. Yep. Or you can continue just tuning in every Friday because we'll always be here and um yeah, releasing new stuff. So thank you very much. And thank you for the um ratings and stuff on whether it's podcasts, Spotify, all of them. We really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yep. And those of you, by the way, listening on YouTube, I fixed it. YouTube stopped importing your episodes. I think I think we're back on track. So very good. Anyway, we'll be back in uh next Friday with something else. Thanks for hanging out, guys. See you later.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Cheers, guys.