Social Anxiety (Episode 031)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

You know you've got social anxiety when you negatively anticipate maybe a social event, ruminate, try and play through scenarios, maybe even rehearse how you'll be with the social event. During the social event, you're constantly self-aware, you know, scanning yourself, hyper focused on your facial expressions, nodding, smiling, a lot of placation sometimes. After the event, they will ruminate, analyze, and go through the memory. Did I say the right thing? Did I offend this person? Here's a threat to my identity and what I would like to be. If there's an opportunity for someone to see me as not how I'd like to see, my threat response would go off and fire off.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Well, for a lot of us, it's we just don't want to be seen. Forget judged. I'm already judging myself. I don't like what you see when you look at me. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 31 of the podcast entitled Social Anxiety and the Fawn Response. I am Drew Linsolata, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling, a therapist in training in New York, in the United States, and a former sufferer of anxiety, disorders, and depression for many years of my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, previous sufferer and co-host of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

It's a fine podcast. How about we start with the Did It Anyway today, Josh? It's always a good way to start.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Love to celebrate the community. What have you got today, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Let's do it. We have a good uh we have a did it anyway from from well, you know, I won't say her name. I think she says it, but let's see. Let's just play it and then there's an even there's a prologue for this too. It gets even better. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Hi, Drew. Hi, Josh. Thank you so much for such a great podcast. Um, it's been incredibly helpful. Today, I don't so much have a did it anyway as a doing it anyway. So I have health anxiety. It's something that's really, really been a big part of my life and it's been a really big struggle. Uh, since reading your book, Drew, I have realized that it's time to combat it. So hopefully, whenever you guys hear this, I will be in the doctor's getting my blood taken, um, which is something that I have been avoiding for the last decade at least. Um, I'm really frightened of going to the doctors. So, unlike a lot of people with health anxiety, I'm never near the doctors if I can avoid it. So, um, yeah, I'm gonna be going to get my bloods taken. Um, I don't know what the outcome is gonna be. I am intentionally not googling. And um yeah, I'm doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

All right, this is the part where we would usually play some applause from the studio audience because you know we have hundreds of people here watching us record, but there's a prologue to this one. Two days later, this person sent us a voice message and said, I did it. So she did it on the way to the doctors and then followed up two days later saying that she did it. She was terrified, she was freaking out, she had all the all the symptoms and everything, but she got her blood stunned. She did it.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Thanks for the spoiler, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I know. I wait. We could have, we could have, well, we could have left them hanging, like clickbait. Come back next week to see if she did it. Excellent. She did it. So now you get applause.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Super love it. Well, well done. Well done. That's brilliant. It's scary. I you and I get scared going to the doctors now and then because your anxious brain wants to suggest you all the catastrophes and things. And uh, but you lent into uncertainty. Well done. Pretty normal. Good job. Irish or from the West Country? Couldn't tell which. Well, that's Irish. That's Irish, you think? Yeah. You can't distinguish between Irish and the West Country.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Well, only because of the doctor. Doctor.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

She had that R thing going on. Your accents are terrible. Your recognition of accents are terrible. I have to go to a remedial accent class now.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 4:01

The only good one you recognize is the Wisconsin one, which I love. That one I can. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that one.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Social anxiety. Anything you ever anything you ever struggled with? I will admit I I claim no personal experience with social anxiety. So I, you know, disclaimer right up front. I don't have any personal experience to share. I can only go by the things that I've been told by a lot of smart people and people in our community that have shared with us.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Cool. I have a lot of experience of social anxiety. Uh, you wouldn't think because I love the sound of my own voice. But there were times in my life where, yeah, I'd I'd withdraw, keep myself to myself, very low on confidence. Um, you know you've got social anxiety. Um, it's a three-stage problem. You know you've got anxiety social anxiety when you negatively anticipate maybe a social event. So you ruminate, try and play through scenarios, maybe even rehearse how you'll be with the social event. When I say social event, it could be something like a party or even just a meeting with one person and you're playing it through over and over again. Maybe you you know, a bit like shower thoughts. You know, have you ever had a shower thought where you're trying to play through an argument, how you'd like to be, you know, can I practice a joke? Can I do this? Can I how can I impress this person? So, yeah, that's stage one. Stage two is when you're during the social event, you're constantly self-aware, you know, scanning yourself, hyper focused on your facial expressions, nodding, smiling. A lot of placation sometimes. That's the form response, right? We'll get to that. It is the form response, yeah. And and it's all this kind of does this person think I'm uh acceptable? Are they gonna push me away? You know, I really want the approval of this person, or I don't want to be pushed away or rejected by this person. And then the third stage is some people with social anxiety, and this is what a lot of the time is poured into after the event or the occasion or the interaction, they will ruminate, analyze what they think they're analyzing, and go through the memory, often skewed memory because of anxiety. Uh uh, did I say the right thing? Did I offend this person? Uh, what if you know they think less of me? What if I should have been more of myself? What if I should have been less of myself? What if I mistimed something? What if I should have said, and so on and so forth. Um, social anxiety can be quite complex because people are socially anxious for different reasons. But yeah, that's in general, that's kind of how I like to group it, a three stage thing. You know you've got anxiety, social anxiety because of these three stages. Also, you've got the auto avoidance as well. Some people with crippling social anxiety will just avoid it altogether.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Yep. Only under extreme duress will they they do those things. I get it. Um, that does sound a lot of like what people have talked to me about. And we always hear those there's there are a lot of uh those kind of crazy memes and silly mental health memes on social media that do target that. It's the old like, you know, you're trying to go to sleep. Hey, let's go to sleep. Your brain, let me remind you of that awkward thing you said 14 years ago, and then they're up all night, you know, ruminating on it.

SPEAKER_03 7:10

So that's a that's probably a social anxiety thing when you see when you accidentally call your school teacher mom. I think I did that, you know, when I was younger, and I think it still haunts me.

SPEAKER_02 7:20

Yeah, yeah, those awkward things. I guess that's the hallmark of somebody with social anxiety, or one of them anyway.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Yeah, well, you mentioned before about the fawn response. So, you know, anxiety dictated by the amygdala is the fight, flight, freeze, and fawn response. Um, you know it's part of the fight response when you get irritated and angry, you want to push people away and feel this internal rage. You know, when I I've got misophonia, so when I hear certain sounds, you know, it actually taps into the fight part of my fight, flight, freeze-form response because I can become angry. Uh, then you've got the flight response, which is a lot of people with anxiety disorders. I need to escape, I need to run away, I need to analyze the route to escape, or I need to just leave the situation or withdraw. And then you've got the freeze response, which is characterizes most panic attacks, which is you know, I've utterly frozen in fear, my attention is inwards, I feel like I'm really scared, and this can overlap with the flight response when that engages when you want to run away. Um, but when we talk about panic attacks in a very early episode, you know, most panic attacks are actually a freeze response, like and most people can't actually see them. But in general, yeah, that's that that that's part of that. Sometimes you can just freeze in fear if you you know, if you have a you know, you don't actually literally freeze, but it feels like that. Like your um your thinking slows down. These applies to people that have maybe struggled with public speaking or been put on the spot. Think of a think of a circle where you're being introduced. Like, tell us your name, something interesting about yourself, and you're like, uh I don't know. Yeah, that's the freeest one. And then finally you've got the phone response, which is kind of what we're gonna talk about today, uh, and different reasons why that form response has been conditioned. But usually with the form response, it's it's placation, it's people pleasing. And yeah, this episode's for you. Um, and it's something I specialize in as well. So I apologize in advance if there's too much of my voice.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

No, man, you know more than I do about it.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

When you want to hear the mellifuous tones of Drew's New York accent, unfortunately, the Lancashire accent of me.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

I'm all about it. I mean, I I think so. The fawn response, you know, I've heard described as it's a safety mechanism, like anything else, right? Like it's designed to keep you safe. Don't reject me, don't don't cast me out, don't harm me, don't hurt me, don't yell at me. So I I will make sure the fawn I've heard also as like, well, I'm gonna fawn that response is like, let me manage your emotions for you so that I stay safe here. You know, you don't reject me.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Absolutely. Well, with the fawn response, you've got to go back to our ancestors when we're as nomadic tribes, wanderers. Um, in order to survive, humans thousands of years ago had to be together as a part of a collective tribe, you know, and whoever was the leader, the alpha of the tribe, was the boss. Now, if you weren't in this tribe, you're dead. Yeah, you can't forage and make clothes and find and scan and scout and find shelter and build fires all on your own. You need to do it as part of that tribe collectively. Now, if you annoy people in that tribe, particularly the alpha leader or people around, you'll be banished and therefore dead. So, part of what of the foreign response evolved was that I need to people please, because if I get kicked out of this tribe, I'm dead. And that might go against my opinions and wants and needs. But that is an internal threat response as a human telling me I need to conform, otherwise I'm dead.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah, and that's ingrained in our DNA, that's ingrained there constantly. Obviously, we don't live in nomadic tribes anymore. Um, and well, no fact Josh and I do.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

Like when we're done recording, we just roam the countryside. Like most people don't know that. Foraging, foraging, sleeping in the it's an evolutionary imperative, like belong or die.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, yeah, and and as we our lives in societies become relatively well, a lot relatively safer. Um, that response isn't necessarily needed. That's only one side of the story. The form response can also be ignited when we're raised in an environment that hasn't been kind. Yeah, you know, maybe we have abusive parents or neglectful parents, abuse abusive in the sense that I want this person to be happy, so I'll do the best thing I can to make them happy, so therefore I'm less in danger. Or they neglected me, so I want to make sure this person's happy so they give me the attention and adoration I deserve in order to grow up healthily. Obviously, you know, if you've got two parents that can do that, you're very lucky. You know, the the but in general, that's kind of how that people-pleasing form response happens. Yeah, uh, if you yeah, if you live in an unpredictable environment, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:22

That's what I was gonna say.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Yeah, so maybe your mom and dad had health and mental health issues, passed down from your grandparents' mental health issues, and so on and so forth. You don't know if your mom and dad are happy or sad or angry, and so you're on eggshells. So I hear a lot of my practice, I'm on eggshells a lot, because you just want everything to be calm so you feel safe. That also conditions the fawn response.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

Yeah, I've even heard people call, you know, liken that to the freeze responses attached to that too. Like I'm either just trying to be out of the way and quiet and still, or actively trying to calm everybody down, make everybody happy, because otherwise I could get blindsided in any moment, which is a terrible way to have to live. You know, you can see where that could have impact for sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Absolutely. And then you add other layers to it too. If you're bullied in school, which I imagine you were, Drew, and people are only human. That's why I'm dramatic now. That's why it's uh if you're bullied in school, I was bullied in school a lot, and so therefore I know the uh the form response. Um it's you want to be part again, part of that tribe, part of that community, part of that group. You want a sense of belonging. So when you're bullied and bullied by multiple people, maybe you're really bullied. That form response can turn into, well, I need to have some sense of belonging. And so, therefore, you might find yourself sharing opinions you don't deep down in believe. Sometimes you just do anything to feel a sense of fitting in. Um, I know that I used to struggle with that when I was younger, and unfortunately, I was bullied, and then I became a bully because I felt a sense of belonging in a sense of in a group of bullies, and one of the conditions to be part of that group was to just be a horrible knob to other people. Yeah, but for me, it helped me feel like a sense of of belonging and survival. I mean, I look back now and I'm ashamed of that stuff, but in general, that's that's kind of like what a lot of bullies do, you know, it's because I want I've fawned to a bully, but an actual bully, and I've become on myself because it gives me status.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Well, it's a better choice, uh, you know, that whole like I will I'll do what I have to do to be accepted into this group, even if that means I'm the one, I'm the punching bag of the group. Because it's better to lay in the corner and get the scraps from the wolves than to fight with the wolves or to be outcast by the wolves. And yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a tough place for people to be. And like these are stories that we hear reasonably often often in our community, and I think they lead to some of the other stuff that we see under you know, social anxiety. Some of those are things that teach you things about yourself or ways that you see yourself, those introjections and that self-image that can lead to this social anxiety condition that we talk about here.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Absolutely. And I know we've spoken about introjections on an anxious truth podcast, which was um, which is a really good one we did a few years ago. I think just unpeeling the layers, I'm trying to do a catch-all with all social anxiety because it just to help people reflect if you are socially anxious, um, where it might have come from. Um, you've got that, and then you've got things in even in your adult life. So adults get bullied. Um, maybe you're in an abusive relationship right now because that happens, we live in the real world. Maybe you're in a neglectful relationship now that that lacks kindness. Um what happens throughout all these experiences, and like Drew said, is that these introjections form. And as a humanistic therapist, I like exploring these with clients. And an introjection is a life lesson that you um infer from events. So let's say you know Mum and Dad never showed their love. Well, you might infer an injection of interjection of well, maybe I'm just not lovable. Yeah. Maybe uh you might if someone's angry all the time, but then you can step in and make them quiet, or you can step in and flatter them to make to to make them calm. You might interject that actually when someone's unhappy, you don't prioritize your own feelings, you prioritize others. Yeah, and these come out even in the modern times emails. Oh, I don't want to look at that email. Oh, is that person angry with me? You know you struggle with social anxiety in the form response when you stand in a room and you can sense someone when you feel like you can sense someone's mood and you're not even looking at them.

SPEAKER_02 16:54

Yeah, I like how you said you sense I can I feel I can sense someone's mood. You know, and I think that's that conditioned response that says I need to be able to know everybody's mood so that I know whether they're gonna attack me, accept me, love me, hate me, you know. So again, you learn all these these things, these things. Well, you learn to see yourself certain ways. And I think one of the other ones that I've heard is that perfectionistic thing where not that I was neglected, but I was only praised for achievement. So therefore, my only worth is being perfect and achieving. And if, and then I worry that if I'm in a you know, in a group, if I'm not perfect, I will be outcast. I will be, they'll see me as less than perfect, they'll see that I'm only worth anything if I am perfect or I'm achieving. And again, really hard. It's a tough way to live.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

Yeah. Introjections, yeah. Introctions like that. I I've I've never learned to fail, never learned to be less than 100%. My parents only praised me when I did 100%, never praised me on intentions, not output. Maybe they praised me on my body and how I looked. Maybe they commented when I put on weight but didn't. Maybe they, you know, did all these things and we introject these lessons because that's what we think it is to have value. People with social anxiety always tie it to their value. You know, maybe I only get value when lots of people or even one person around me tells me I'm good enough. So therefore, the threat response, which is called the amygdala drew.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah, I know. I was a little slow on that, wasn't I?

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Amygdala. There you go. Come on, you can bring it back to 90s trash. And uh that threat response, it's literally a threat response. It doesn't have to be an axe-wielding maniac to be a threat. Sure. It can be a threat to your very self-esteem. And that's where the fawn response often comes through. Like, here's a threat to my identity and what I would like to be. And if so, if there's an opportunity for someone to see me is not how I'd like to see, my threat response would go off and fire off. That's why we get jealous.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, that's huge what you just said there. I think a lot of people would conceptualize social anxiety as like, oh, that's extreme shyness. Okay, I'm sure it does look that way, but not so much shyness, but shame. And like one of the most interesting things anybody ever said, and this was I fully attributed to Sadie Hall, who was on my podcast a couple of years ago. She suffers from social anxiety. I don't know if she's still active on social media in those circles, but she said it's not that I don't people will say that if you have social anxiety, you want to be judged. And she said, Well, for a lot of us, it's we just don't want to be seen. Forget judged. I'm already judging myself. So I just don't even see me because I know I don't I don't like what you see when you look at me.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yeah. And it's very similar to imposter syndrome, the sense that I always this is my definition of imposter syndrome, it's the fear of being seen how we see ourselves at our worst. Right. So and I think and think about, oh, they're gonna see that I'm a fraud, I'm not good enough, etc. etc. So I I'd rather just withdraw from it altogether. But actually, it's I don't think it's the it's the fear of being seen, because most people with severe social anxiety want to be. They wish they had the bravery to do it, they just want it minus the anxiety. They crave connection on some level, but the fear outweighs the want to do it.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Because if you see me, I I do want to be seen, I want to be accepted, I want to be connected. But but if I see myself as inherently flawed or or lacking worth, if you see me, you're gonna see that. So I won't get that connection. So like I yeah, and that's the anxiety of like, ah, you know, but I just don't feel like I'm worth this in inside, which was a such an eye-opening thing to hear me hear her say. So it's not necessarily this person is shy, or people will often respond to someone with social anxiety, try to support your friends, you know, and oh, my friend had social anxiety. It's okay, no one's no one's judging you. They're not they're too busy, they're just too engrossed in their own thing. Yeah, but that doesn't sometimes really land because it doesn't it, I don't, I don't care that they don't judge me. I'm already judging myself. So that's not helping me that much. You know, I heard that.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, uh, and that's from the esteem side of things. This is why social anxiety becomes quite complex. It could be because of self-esteem, it could be because of complex trauma. And if you're still tuning in after and we've not been cancelled for our does the body keep the score episode at the moment, then then you'll understand that it can be part of that, particularly when you've had push-pull relationships growing up, or you know, you very love-hate kind of relationships with caregivers or people around you, that can really send your fawn response. Bananas. I know I've worked with many clients like that, you know. And you're like, you know, I sometimes feel safe when someone's kind to me, but I also feel unsafe when people are kind to me. You know, actually, I feel comfort in the predictability of cruelty, and sometimes I just don't feel like someone being cruel to me. You know, it's it's it can be quite different, and social anxiety has different facets. So when people come in, and and I want to know, it's so important to formulate how yours is. It is not shyness, shyness is a great trait. You know, the world is full of idiots sprouting their mouth, including Drew and I. Shyness is actually. Actually, I don't even see that as a problem. You know, it can that's okay. But when it's actually no, this social event is giving me severe anxiety, then that can be a problem. The shy people are just like, I'm I'm all right, just not talking. I'm cool. I'm shy.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Or maybe you know, maybe I'm uncomfortable, but I'm I'm okay, I'm uncomfortable, but like I can deal with that. It's not a threat to me. This this situation is not a threat to me, the way maybe someone with social anxiety would perceive it for a variety of different ways and interpreting threat, but and then that avoidance kicks in. It's always avoidance always becomes the hallmark of the diagnosed disorder, if you will. Like, so you just go through great lengths to not go into those situations.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, I always uh advise people social anxiety to explore this. Um, I think I think with social anxiety is where the modalities can open up to you because when you're talking about panic sort of fear of fear, that a lot of what we talk about, yeah. I mean, I love CBT, I love stuff like that. I love you kind of doing that, and you can do you can use social anxiety with CBT. Yeah, it's comparing it. I I I often I often widen the net social anxiety. I'm like, well, why what happens? Why? You know, even talking therapy, um person-centered therapy, kind of even you know, transactional analysis therapy, stuff, loads of modalities can help you explore and uncover it because it can go quite deep sometimes. Sure. You know, why why am I this? You know, this is where you get the cliche kind of revelations in therapy, sometimes like, oh yeah, it's because dad was a dick to me. You know, oh yeah, that makes sense. You know, is it the reason why I have panic attacks when I'm trying to order a subway? No. But is it the reason why I'm actually struggling with my interpersonal relationships? Maybe even my personal relationship, maybe I maintaining attachment. Yeah, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Or maybe, you know, am I is is this why I have panic attacks when I try to order a subway? Well, also, maybe, you know, I mean, it could play into it if your fear, if the fear of ordering a subway is I don't know, you're gonna see me for my worthlessness because my dad always tells me I was worthless and I'm I'm not good. And then yeah, maybe. But but that can help inform, like, well, the way out on the exposure side, because people ask us that all the time. What's my exposure for social anxiety? Well, there are certainly exposures you could do for that, but what's underneath that? Like it's the one variant that I might ask somebody, well, what else is underneath that? You know, almost automatically, uh, so that you understand why that's happening to you when you go into those really scary or what you think is a really scary situation.

SPEAKER_03 24:37

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely. Um actually, it was it reminded me of that really cool Reddit post a while about a few years old now, this, but um there was that someone wrote on Reddit, like, I've I have such crippling anxiety to even I can't even go into Subway. I think it's probably right lingering in my subconscious somewhere, and that's why it came out, but like um I'm too scared to even order a sandwich in Subway, and people would you know you'd assume there'd be ridiculed because some people are horrible online, and some some person just came forward and wrote a step-by-step I'm looking at it right now essay on how to order a sandwich, and it was so wholesome and lovely from a random stranger, anonymous strain to another anonymous stranger. If you want to go to Subway, this is what you you know, this is what you can, this is how you do it, whatever. And that was so wholesome.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

This is really now this is amazing, and yes, you're right, it was four years ago, and it's it's incredible. Yeah, and and it gives you faith back in uh the anonymous internet, it does, but it all you know, which is great, but it also shows you like this person literally was brave. I mean, we could I guess we have to acknowledge it, it could have been a a bit on the internet possible, but you know, I have very bad anxiety and would like to try Subway. Could someone give me a step-by-step of how to order a sandwich from there? Like, that can look this way. Social anxiety could look that way. A lot of anxiety could look that way, definitely, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:03

Yeah, so well done. I hope you enjoyed your sandwich. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Oh, it's funny. Edit, I managed to go in just now. Sandwich was very nice. I'll be back to try more. They edited four years ago after getting all these great responses from people that were trying to help.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

I love that stuff. That's brilliant. That made me feel good.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Thanks, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

I think another important layer of social anxiety as well is people with the fear of abandonment. I'm willing to please people I don't even like because having them around is better than being rejected and abandoned. Yeah, and that's and that's a big one again that I see as a therapist. You know, like why do you why do you keep this person around? Why do you want them to be happy? You don't even nothing they say aligns with you. You actually find them personally abhorrent, they don't treat you well. Why because it's better than being left. And so therefore, my threat response, my social anxiety, my fawn response will kick in because I'll take the minimum of what I think I can cope with, other than being rejected and abandoned. Yeah. And it's like, well, I often say, Well, how do you think you'll do if this horrid person isn't in your life anymore? What happens? Yeah, yeah. What happens then?

SPEAKER_02 27:19

And sometimes that that's that introjected belief, like, well, I I'm not capable of anything, I'm weak, can't even take care of myself.

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Because I was told that. Introjected belief that, well, people keep leaving me. I was like, Well, actually, it's probably doing you a favor because they're all horrible. Yeah, yeah, right. That's true. Yeah, but at the same time, because that feeling is so horrible, and and again, it we can't convey the complexities and how deep that can be in a podcast. But I'm just trying again, I'm c casting the net out to try uh and help anyone who struggles with social anxiety to be seen. I just want to feel belonging, and and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:53

Yeah, as someone in the middle of of being trained in this world, I find it interesting that social anxiety is somewhat controversial from a diagnostic standpoint. It's classed in the anxiety disorders, but also pretty widely discussed now. Like, yeah, technically, but it's the one that's a little different.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

So I've noticed that it's it's had a swing more towards complex BTSD. Yeah, I think which again is quite a vague term in itself, as if you've heard to the last the last episode. But from my gathering, complex BTSD is often associated with neglect, turbulent, a long, turbulent, prolonged, emotionally difficult time. Yeah, you know, where you just don't know where you stand, and yeah, often social anxiety is that but okay, yeah, it can e but it can even just be things like bullying and stuff. Like I know people who adults that that still kind of go into this fawn response when they're reminded or someone displays a trait that reminds them of someone that bullied them.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Yeah, it makes sense. And so I think if you're listening to the podcast on a regular or following us along on social media and you're dealing with social anxiety, and it's just well, what's my exposure? Like you're trying to really narrow it down to the mechanics of that.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

You can do exposures for sure, you know. Yeah, yeah, you can do exposures.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah, absolutely. Start off with strangers, yeah, absolutely. They all like go ask someone for a quarter. Yeah, go ask them for a quarter. Like, I don't want someone for money.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Don't go ask for a more for money. I mean, you could, I suppose. It reminds me of the uh the shame exposures from REBT, Albert Ellis kind of thing. Like when you those shame exposures, if you ever read them, like the the stuff like don't tip the waiter or yeah, tell the person they've given you the wrong change, or so or just things that make you feel horrible. Uh uh, I don't really do them.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Uh because you're making someone else an unwitting participant in your little experiment. Yeah, I've said that. I've said that. Yeah, I was like, you know, yeah, there's some interesting stuff. When I had Sadie on the podcast, she talked about that. Some of the work that she did, she did all the different kinds of work. She did a lot of talk therapy. Some of the stuff you talked about, she needed that. And then she also did exposure therapy, where they did silly like wear different socks or wear the wrong shoe on the wrong feet, like that attracts attention to yourself. And it was hard for the people in her therapy group to do it. So they did a combination, some exposure work and some talk therapy work.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

I think as well, like if you are someone with social anxiety, just you're practicing too. Because if you're socially anxiety, if you you're struggling and you've probably not been in lots of conversations recently. So just see it as actually I'm practicing, just chatting again. You know, whether it's a chat with someone at the kiosk or an apart bench or an old family member you've not spoken to, do it whilst anxious. You know what we always talk about, you know. But acknowledge actually this might be dredging other things up, but I don't need to fawn anymore. I have value, my voice has value, I have just as much value as any everyone else. And remind yourself of that when the fawn response, the threat response is kicking in, when you're talking to someone who you where you feel like the old habits and compulsions kicking off. Are they happy with me? No, what about your opinion? Your opinion matters, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

So it's a little different. I mean, some of the other stuff for panic disorder or agoraphobia, you might not necessarily focus on the content of the worry there. You know, you're just afraid of being afraid. Whereas in social anxiety, well, maybe you are like remember that you're anxious because you're challenging some deep-seated old personal narratives here. That content kind of does matter in that situation, and you're learning to change it. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

Also, social anxiety does overlap with panic disorder agoraphobia.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

And you know, I think we can both definitely attest to that because people will, you know, in the midst of a panic attack or in their they're caught far from home and they're agoraphobic, like some of those themes will begin to surface in that crisis moment. Like, okay, that's that's a fine.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

And then all of a sudden they notice, like, oh yeah, I've I've I'm really afraid of making a spectacle or being looked at too much, or I'm sure I'm ashamed of myself. Like, okay, well, that's something to work on. Not everything is a Claire Weeks problem.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

So yeah, exactly. What what if I make it what if they see I'm sweating, I'm embarrassed about that? What if I throw up in front of this person? Yep. Uh, and the overlap can be very strong. Um, what if they see I'm awkward? What if they think I'm being rude because I want to escape?

SPEAKER_02 32:34

What if I have to excuse myself and go to the restroom? It's a disaster for some people. Like, okay, well, that's something different to to look at and work on. It all goes together. Do all the stuff.

SPEAKER_03 32:44

So absolutely, yeah, yeah. I mean, if if this foreign response to social anxiety resonates with you, do let us know and we'll do talk more about it because it can be quite a deep complex, uh, a deep uh subject. Uh, and again, it's it's subjected to each individual. Um, but yeah, we thought we'd talk about it because it is a big one, yeah. You know, and lots of people get social anxiety outside the realms of that inward disordered anxiety. Is social anxiety is that even a disorder? I don't even know.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

It is especially, yeah, it's one of the anxiety disorders, it's in there, it's in the DSM4. So a decent value.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah, so that's a weird thing because you know, panic disorder is a thing, obsessive compulsive disorder is a thing, right? Right. Social anxiety, yeah, right. But the social anxiety is like, well, there's so many routes to that. I'd have to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I think there's also a ton of specifiers, and there's the like the differential stuff for social anxiety is like as long as I am tall, and it's you know, so it's the the the realization they're like, yeah, it's in here, but man, there's a lot that goes into this one.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Section three, part seven.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Yeah, it's it's also C also C also. That's okay. There's a lot more on that.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah, and it's it's a big umbrella, and and it's it's interesting because it presents very similar. People with social social anxiety will present very similar, but the reasons can vary.

SPEAKER_02 34:07

Yeah, very different. It sure looks like this person is having panic attacks like someone with panic disorder, but not for the same reasons. So tricky. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Do we have any uh we got questions? We got two more did it. Should we do them all? We got another audio did it anyway. Have we? Oh, that's fun. Let's play the audio dead anyway. Let's do it. These are always fun, because again, celebrating the community, you guys are working hard. Here's one right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Hi, Dre and Josh. Um, I'm currently sitting in my car. I've literally just driven 25 miles to my friend's um birthday party. Um oh my god. Oh my god, I'm so happy. I'm so happy. I'm really scared. I'm still really scared, but I'm really happy. Um and I did it. Um I haven't really left my house much for two years, so I am working on trying to get out. Um, and yeah, um, I did it, and I've just got to carry on. Um, I feel so sick. Um and I literally feel like I'm gonna throw up right now. All over the car. But you know what? Who cares? Who cares if I throw up? Um, so I just want to say thank you so much uh for everything you guys do. Um oh my god. Oh my god, there is a massive fox out there. Oh Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

Oh my god, it looks like that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Um, thank you so much, guys. Um yeah, thank me. Thanks, Mike.

SPEAKER_02 35:42

I love that one. That gets applause for sure.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

That was so good. I love that was the most British thing I have ever heard on this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

At the end, we should oh my goodness, there's a myth.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Sorry. Uh yeah, that was brilliant. I love how the thought that that was your spirit animal. Your spirit animal ran out and chewed your tires. That was so good. Um not really left the house for two years as well. And then to drive 25 miles.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

I know. Whoa, well done. That's a big leap. You know what? I my favorite part about this is the fact that she was happy and afraid and felt like she was gonna get sick, and like all of those things were coexisting at once, and she was here for that. Like, yeah, she was still anxious as well, but also delighted, also happy at the same time. That can happen. So I love that one. It's really good. So we have a question. How about we go to the question? We'll save our our other dido in for maybe next episode. This question, this is a written-in question. Um this is one that I think it's a really common question, and we both looked at each other, but okay. So the question is hi guys, I'm loving the podcast, but I need to ask a very important question. I don't have a panic disorder, but a fear of anxiety itself that's really intense. What would my exposures be? I've been recovered in the past for about eight years, but somehow became afraid of it again. Now I feel I'm in a loop of feeling stuck. What should I do? I don't have panic disorder, but I'm afraid of the anxiety itself.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

I mean, that sounds a lot like panic disorder. Um I think what the person's asking is they're fixating on the anxiety itself. Like it's become a thing that they're not only afraid of, but they're annoyed at.

SPEAKER_04 37:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

Like the very, and so therefore it's become an object of the fixation. I hate that it's there, I hate that it's high there. Uh, they may not fear the panic attacks anymore, but it may, and I think we've discussed this in kind of in in previous episodes. I think someone's asked something quite similar. It's like the fact that it's there and it's high is worrying me, and so therefore, my attention is inwards and compulsively checking, I'm scanning, I'm ruminating, I'm seeking reassurance, and trying to find the answers and the quick fixes, uh, and which is the antithesis of kind of what we propagate on here, which is you know, willful tolerance, surrendering to it, allowing it to just be there. There doesn't sound like there's any allowance for it to be there, and usually with our behavior and our focus, we keep teaching the brain, the amateur that this thing being here, I hate it, it's super scary, and and I'm showing you that and reinforcing that with my behavior. Um but it yeah, I would treat it the same as panic disorder.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Kind of, and I you know the question, the part that I you know, it's hard to say because it was an email, but uh I don't have a panic disorder, but a fear of anxiety that's real anxiety itself that's really intense. I don't know if he means the fear is intense or the fear of intense anxiety, but and I think it sounds like this person is confused. Well, since I don't have panic disorder, what am I supposed to do? No, treat it kind of like you would treat panic disorder because it's yeah, being afraid of anxiety itself is literally the definition of the disordered state, or one of them anyway.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Yeah, yeah, you're in the disordered state. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know I know people that do that, they're just sit and hate anxiety seven, eight out of ten. Yep. Like they know that they're not gonna have a panic attack, but they don't like how high their anxiety is. Yeah, treat it the same.

SPEAKER_02 39:10

Yeah, go like what is my exposure? You're in it. When you're anxious, you're in the exposure. You don't have to you don't have to find it, you're in it. Yeah, where's your attention right now?

SPEAKER_03 39:18

What are you doing right now? What would non-anxious you be doing right now? Sure. You know, and maybe go and do your own did it anyway and see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah, see what happens. We had an episode not too long ago called What Would Non-Anxious You Do? Go check that out. It's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one. I think we're good. We've not got any other did it anyways? We have one more did it anyway that I can read. Why don't we do it? We're only 39 minutes in, which makes it gonna put uh last episode.

SPEAKER_03 39:43

I put the piano on. No, not for my read it read out to it anyway. You did do that. Go treat yourself, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

Treat yourself, treat yourself to a dramatic reading. I don't think I have the music queued up, unfortunately. I don't want to take the time to do that, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

We'll do it like a really we'll do it like a boring one.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

All right, here's the did I'll try to make it as dramatic. My best James Earl Jones here. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. Hi guys, please feel free to use my name, and this is Liz, but I got the best did it anyway. Wait, did she say yes? Feel free to use my name. I'll have to make sure I got the right. Yeah, last year I couldn't leave my house and I hadn't been to Italy, where my family is from, these are my people, for four years due to COVID, long COVID, huge breakdown in anxiety. I thought I would never be able to fly there again, but dot dot dot, dramatic ellipsis, I did it anyway. Just back down, just touch back down in Britain after a week holidays and not one panic episode. Thanks, guys. Love you both. Loads, thank you from the bottom of my heart for all your help. I'm buzzing. I actually did it. Viva Italia. And she ended with some kisses. So thank you. I love this. It's so good. A lot of gusto in that one.

SPEAKER_03 40:50

I love that. I love it. My people.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Liz is my people. Uh that's such a good one. I love that one. Yep. I thought I'd never be able to fly there again, but there she was.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

So oh, well done. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

You know what? That's the product of hard work. I'm sure Liz worked hard to get there. So good job, Liz.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Yeah, we actually don't like any of the did it anyways. We just have a crippling phone response, and we want you to like us.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

I lied in the very beginning. I do have social anxiety. Please don't me. Um, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Keep them coming in. Disordered.fm. Send us some voice notes, send us um some messages. We absolutely love it. Yeah. And uh and we'll we'll catch you soon.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

Yeah, follow us on social media, anxiety Josh and the anxious truth. Wait, you got something going on pretty soon, don't you? I do.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

I'm gonna mention it again next episode and probably in every episode that we ever do. Um, I have I have a new book out, a major publication in the US, UK, and nine countries so far around the world. It's called And How's That Make You Feel? If you pre-order it, um, either through my website, schoolofanxiety.com or my Instagram page, please let me know personally and I will thank you personally, either with a message or a voice note. For those that have pre-ordered it already, I've been sending out voice notes. I actually really enjoy doing the voice notes. Uh I just think it's some horrible ramblings. But yeah, it's my I think it's my only chance to to get a book that you know that really that's really out there. It celebrates being a therapist. If you've got anxiety, you'll love this book. Um, it's funny, it's heartbreaking, it's yeah, it's just basically everything that I do uh that I want to celebrate with the people here. But yeah, I'll rant on about it some other time that you can probably skip in another episode. But I'm really passionate about it. And if anything I've ever done has helped you, I'd really appreciate a pre-order.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

Go check it out. Am I allowed to say that I've that I I've seen the book?

SPEAKER_03 42:42

You can know, it's already out.

SPEAKER_02 42:47

It's a good book. Go check it out. Anyway, guys, thanks for hanging out with us. We'll see you next week. See you later, guys.