Is Distraction a Compulsion In Anxiety Recovery? (Episode 157)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey guys, uh my name is James. I'm from Canada. You can use my name. I just wanted to get your guys' opinion on distraction as a compulsion. As I see a lot in the OCD community specifically, people will recommend to just distract your mind, but if you're doing it to escape feeling a certain way, I I I view that as a compulsion. I think if you just naturally live by your values, your body will self-regulate and distraction will become a product of that naturally. Um and another thing is trust within yourself, responding to intrusive thoughts with the idea, like maybe, maybe not, living with the uncertainty, but I'm gonna choose to trust myself or learn to trust myself again and stick with my values. Those are a couple things that I've I've found very helpful. Your podcast has been helpful. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 157 of the podcast. We are, I don't know when we're recording, but uh today we're gonna talk about distraction as a potential compulsion. Can distraction be a compulsion? It's a good question. The answer is yes. See you next week. Anyway, I'm Drew Linsolata. I am one half of Disordered. I'm a therapist that specializes in practice in uh the practice of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, a former sufferer of the things we talk about here on Disordered, uh, psychoeducator, social media guy, podcaster, clearly. And I'm joined as always by my co-host from Across the Pond.

SPEAKER_05 1:30

That would be I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist and author who lives in Manchester in the UK. It is currently 32 degrees. I am melting, my organs are boiling. Um, I'm unsticking myself from surfaces and myself. Um yeah, it's it's it's quite unpleasant. But what is pleasant is co-hosting this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

It is. It is one of my favorite hours of the week when we do this. No joke. Seriously. So, can distraction be a compulsion? And by the way, thank you. Uh Lily Sender Inner. Uh, I don't remember if we were allowed to use that person's name. Question sender inner. Question sender inner. Uh, really great question because and I and I get asked this all the time in the comment section, in the community, in my therapy practice, but isn't that distraction? What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Yeah. It can do, but then again, is the question is is distraction a bad thing? Uh I used to have a I think I mentioned it before, I used to have a plaque in my old practice. It was said ABR, anything but rumination. And sometimes it's distraction. Uh, I often pontificate as well that anxiety disorders are distracting you. So why not fight fire with fire? You know, oh, isn't that just distracting from the anxiety? Well, yeah, it's distracting you from your day. Well, you get on with your day uh and and not give it attention, like pretend it's not there or whatever. But also, it's a fantastic question because it's the difference between it brings up the the the question of am I distracting or am I choosing to focus on something else more productive, more values driven, like the question Cinderella said what am I doing with my focus? And we'll talk about today. It's a great subject.

SPEAKER_03 3:25

Yeah, and I think if you do this right, and I'm using air quotes here, there's always going to be some distraction. Distraction is gonna be part of the deal. There is you can't help it, it you will get distracted. I always try to teach people, you know, what's the intent? If your intention is to make your lunch while you're anxious, well, you will maybe get distracted if you can move your attention there and you've gotten you've gotten better at that. But or is your intention, I must distract myself. So which comes first? The distraction because of the activity that you choose or the attention that you choose, or does distraction is at the top of the list, you know, item one, distract. Now I have to find something to distract with. Or is distraction the second after I'm gonna do this thing? So it really could get very nuanced though, you know, and and if you if you make a mistake, you make a mistake. We say that all the time, like recover wrong today. It's all right, it's all good.

SPEAKER_05 4:18

But yeah, you it's it's you got you gotta like be careful of the OCD, and it's no um it's no surprise or coincidence that within the OCD online community people obsessed with defining things as a singularity. Like, is that distraction? Now I need 100% certainty if that was distraction or not. Was that healthy distraction? Was that a compulsion? Was how do I know that's a compulsion? And then you end up just ruminating about what the definition is, which is ironically OCD. So sometimes it to borrow a phrase from my cousin and what the youngsters say now, it's just not that deep sometimes. It's like, well, but was that the correct way to distract myself? Like, no, like it doesn't if you're getting pulled into the rumination and the seeking certainty and the 100% certainty, then it doesn't really matter. Um I often use the example, I don't know if I've used it before, but I share it with clients and stuff. Um, there was a difference. So I like playing computer games or playing the PlayStation sometimes. And back when I was really sensitized in the flu, but raging OCD, panic disorder, stuff like that. I would be like, oh my god, I'm feeling the feelings, uh I hate these feelings. Uh and then I'd run to the PlayStation and frantically load up the game and start clicking buttons and you know, playing that and checking, uh, is it gone? I don't know. I'm too afraid how I feel. I need to distract myself. Yeah, correct. Similarly, same situation. Not so long ago, I sat there, I was feeling a bit anxious, noticed I wanted to get pulled into ruminating and you know, didn't like that. And I was like, Well, I've noticed I'm ruminating, I've noticed I don't like how I feel. Um, what would non-anxious me be doing? I'll probably play the PlayStation. So I did exactly the same behavior. I walked over to the computer, picked up my PlayStation controller, and started playing the computer game. Same action, but what's the difference there, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 6:15

I think it's the intent. In the end, it's the intent. Like, uh, I'm gonna go play this game because I like it. It might be relaxing, it speaks to who I really am. And yeah, I have to make sure that I don't the difference is ah, here we go. I am not trying to get away from the anxiety. I am choosing to not give it my attention. Now that's gonna sound ridiculous. That's the whole Stewie Griffin. It's not like I want to murder Lois. I just want her to not be alive. Like there's but there is a difference. Like, no, no, no, I have to practice moving my attention somewhere else. And I'm gonna pick something that has some sort of value to me. So I think it is intention that that really makes the difference in the end.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

But it's also nuance because I know if I sit and not ruminate and play the PlayStation, I'm more likely to feel better.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

That's right. You the happy secondary outcome is you will likely get distracted. That's why I say distraction is always gonna be in there. So if you are somebody in the studio audience was saying she was eating lunch with her mom yesterday and she was experiencing a lot of anxiety, and she tried to really just pay attention to the conversation with her mother. Well, if you're if you keep practicing moving that attention and you are willing to be brave and stop doing the whole, like, yeah, but yeah, but oh, and you really focus on that thing, there is a chance that distraction will arise out of the chaos, and suddenly you won't notice what you were feeling or thinking. But that's the secondary effect. Just like desensitization is the secondary effect of willful tolerance and practicing exposures. We don't aim directly for it. It's what happens when we aim at a better target. So attentional control first, distraction will likely arise. That's not a bad thing if it does. That's a lesson.

SPEAKER_05 7:58

Yeah. That was a great answer, by the way. Thank you. Um am I distracting? Am I distracting, or am I just choosing to focus on something else?

SPEAKER_03 8:08

And what am I focusing on? Sometimes I think that matters too. There are there are some for the artists among us. I I'm sorry, like it's okay if you like to do art, but remember when the coloring coloring book was all the things. I mean, I was a numbers. A few years back, it was the adult coloring books, you know. In in the social media tropes when they come and go and the fad come and go.

SPEAKER_05 8:32

Leave my coloring book alone. I've got a Nintendo one and color book.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

You know, there before the narcissist.

SPEAKER_05 8:37

And I am an artist.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Everyone is a narcissist, everybody was gaslighting me. Before that, there was adult coloring books. Anything that went wrong in your life, you got your adult coloring book, you brought it with you no matter where you are, because it's a distraction. Yeah, but that's a problem. Would you normally be coloring right now? If are you choosing an activity that's specifically designed as a distraction and you were told this will calm you and get you out of your head? Well, notice that. But what if you tried to do an activity that more meaningfully represents what non-anxious you would be doing right now? If you get distracted doing it, okay, win in the end. But the distraction came without trying to distract.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Yeah, yeah. I think the another key word in this is urgency. Yeah. Are you doing this with urgency or are you doing this at the pace that non-anxious you would do it at? You know, if it feels urgent to grab your colouring book, then it'll be obvious probably a safety behavior. But if it's like, I've noticed I'm ruminating, I've noticed I'm seeking reassurance, I've noticed I can't stop scanning how I feel and my body, and I'm in compulsion town. You know what? Maybe I should just focus on something that isn't all these compulsions at the moment, or how I feel. And so I will get out my coloring book and I will be mindful. I'll allow the thoughts and things to chat away in the background, but I'm gonna non-urgently practice with my attention somewhere else. I think that's okay. But the difference is the urgency. It's the same with the PlayStation analogy as well. I'm not sprinting, plugging it in, frantically trying to distract. I'm just like, I'm choosing just to focus on this now without the sense of urgency.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Yeah. Somebody in the studio audience says I use paint by numbers as an attention exercise, which it could be an intention that you're right. Yeah, you know what's an intentional exercise? Meditation, formal mindfulness practice, yoga. Like all of those are ways that we can practice moving our attention to where we want it to be. I need to pay attention to this pose so I don't fall over and break my hip or whatever it's gonna be, you know.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

So uh I a good attentional exercise is watching like mid quite boring TV shows, just keeping your attention on it. I actually do that sometimes. I'm like, it's mildly interesting, a documentary or something, but you're just like I sometimes just practice my attention on that because our brains are just conditioned to get the next dopamine hit or the next hit. Just like, nah, this is this is a bit of a practice. Anyway, what's let's hear from our community. We've got some good stuff, haven't we?

SPEAKER_03 11:05

We do, we have a good one. I think this might be our first one from this part of the world.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Hi, Josh and Drew. I'm Kay from India. I wanted to share my biggest win with you. I had promised myself that if I ever did this, I would send in my story to disordered, and here I am. I had a very traumatic experience on a flight in 2017, and I had not flown since then. Recently, I had to travel to a city 1300 kilometers away from my hometown for a very important interview. I was already under a lot of stress because of grad school exams, and I didn't want to add to my stress chuck, so I decided to do the journey by train. This was my first time travelling out of my city in 9 years and it was a 16 hour journey. When I reached there, I was informed of my ineligibility for the interview. I had worked towards this for a year and I was disappointed, but I decided that if not this interview, then I'm gonna get something even bigger out of this trip. I decided to fly back to my city. The direct flight was 2.5 hours, so I broke it into a 40-minute flight to a nearby city and then a 1.5 hour flight to my home city. When I sat on the first flight, I was holding back tears because I couldn't believe that I'm finally doing this and this is not a dream. And the takeoff was scary. The flight experience was slightly unfamiliar because I hadn't flown in so long. But I did it. And the very next day I took the second flight to my home city, and I was already less scared on the second flight, and I'm now planning to take my next holiday in a few months. There were so many times that I dreamt of successfully flying and woke up sad that it's a dream, but this time it is finally reality, and I can't believe it. I am so proud of myself, and thank thank you so much to both of you for disordered, and specifically thank you, Drew, for the anxious truth as well. That is what helped me go from being housebound to doing my first few exposures, and I can't believe I've gone from being housebound to now finally being on a plane, and yeah, thank you so much, guys.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

That's amazing. Wow, I got a big smile on my face. Right? That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Can't help but be happy listening to that one. That was awesome.

SPEAKER_05 13:20

I love it. Oh, I'm I'm ineligible for the interview. I'll tell you what, well, I'll get a win then. Yeah, I love that. I've come all this way. I'm gonna come out and get a win. Way better. Absolutely. Love it, love it, love it. Well done. And I think that is our first did it anyway from Indy.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

I think so, maybe. We we've hit I think we pretty much circled the world at this point. Any Antarctic did it anyways, please send them in. Or, you know, I don't know, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

If anyone listens in Lapland, we uh we we need your did it anyways.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Greenland. Well, but Lapland, where I could be a member of the national soccer team we discovered, we discovered last year, last week. Yeah, if Lapland had a had a soccer team in the World Cup, I could make that team because like 10 people. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, God, I come out with some crap on that story, too. Uh it was really awesome. So, okay, kind of dig it. Uh I had we have somebody in the studio audience. This is really I I love this topic distraction. Is it a compulsion? Are you doing it wrong? Because these are things that weigh on people. We had somebody say, when you use attention as a coping mechanism, you're going the wrong way. I don't know about that. I mean, yeah, I kind of get the statement like, oh, I'm I'm I'm moving my attention to calm down. You're right. But then if we're if we get too caught up in is this exactly right? Is this the right procedure? Are we doing it right? Is this working? Am I am I ruining it? Am I doing recovery right? We could get caught in a bind. Well, then what am I supposed to be thinking? What am I supposed to be saying? Where am I supposed to be? I get those questions all the time. Yes, I have to practice moving my attention even when it feels safer to put my attention inside of me and stare at how I feel. I gotta move it somewhere else. Will I maybe calm down?

SPEAKER_05 15:03

You literally got to move it somewhere. You have to focus on somebody. You have to do it.

SPEAKER_03 15:06

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

You gotta focus on something. Um, we often say, well, don't hyper focus on your feelings and and thoughts, because that's why you sat listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

So why not try to focus on what non-anxious you might focus on, even though your brain and body are screaming, no, this is dangerous, this is uncomfortable, fixate on me. No, and bear in mind when we're um when we're working like with rewiring the amygdala, press the oh where's the button? Amygdala. There he is. When we're looking at rewiring that, your amygdala is looking at where your focus is at. You know, that's part of a lot of exposure therapy. Like if you're going through, if you're walking through a the park because you have a fear of dogs, and you walk through the entire park and you're just hyper-focused on the dog, you're not really teaching the brain that it's safe. You're like, well, you only survive because you were focusing on the dog. But if you walk through the park and decided to turn your back on the dog for a bit and go play on the swings or get an ice cream, and yeah, all right, you don't feel comfortable. And sometimes you glance over at the dog to see, you know, if it's doing anything, that's way better because the brain and the amygdala's going, oh, actually, you're not even focusing on the threat, so it can't be that much of a threat. And it's the same with anxiety. If you're sat there and you're just focusing on how you feel, you're not really teaching the brain. If I'm Suddha and I'm having heart palpitations, DPDR, thoughts about killing my family, doing all this stuff, and then I'm like, I'm gonna focus on making a sandwich. What better way to teach the brain that all that isn't important? My sandwich is important, you know, and it's practiced over time. But the difference is when it becomes urgent and the intentions are not. So am I misusing my focus to run away from a feeling? Oh, I need to make a sandwich because that worked last time. You know, I need to go and put my head in a bowl of ice water because Dr. Julie told me to. No, you don't have to run and do that. It's like what this is why I always talk about what non-anxious you would do or what anxious you non-anxious you might do. And it will feel incongruous and silly, and it will juxtapose with how you feel. Like, why are you doing a sudoku when your whole mind's telling you're about to die? It's like, because I know I'm not, and I'm just gonna teach it something more chill. So, yeah, you have to focus on something.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

You can't what are you gonna focus on? I think if we if we're not careful and we worry that that be oh, that's a compulsion, or that's a safety behavior, or that's a coping mechanism, or that's doing recovery wrong, you'll get paralyzed into like, well, what should I look at? What what's what's the right thing to look at right here? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

And that's an OCD kicks in the like, am I focusing on the right thing? Which is on those forums. What's the most common question we have, Drew? But what do I do when I'm anxious? And a lot of that is with your focus and your attention.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yeah, and I think it's weird because that's when you run into problems where where you start to use things like acronyms, and you know, there's one really famous acronym, and then even like Dave Carbonell, doesn't he have alert or alarm or somebody does one of those.

SPEAKER_05 18:21

We have an acronym.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Oh, we do the shock attention and resistance. You know, but we did that was one of our best episodes, and we never used the damn acronym. Shock attention. Yeah, but it's not putting it to the describing. That's exactly right. It's a descriptive acronym. But and I think part of the problem would be if if you feel that becoming distraction distracted would be compulsive, or it's it's a safety behavior or an escape behavior and it's wrong, then the opposite of that is the people who feel like they take sit with it literally. No, I can't be distracted. I have to sit with it. I have to sit and look at the feeling and do nothing but fully feel it and wait for it to no. Well, sometimes in the context that you're in, that might be correct, but that's not the automatic always context. So if you're making lunch or you're with your mom, be with your mom. If you're walking your dog, be with your dog. If you're playing in a softball game, play in the softball game. If you're sitting on your sofa, you might be in a context where I do just sit and allow the feelings to happen. It's very nuanced. And I think that's why it's so important that we don't try to look for cookie-cutter techniques and steps, and this is exactly how you do it and applies to everybody because it can't. Like, even for one person, it's going to change from hour to hour throughout the day.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Yeah, and it's like one of the don't get pulled into the perfectionist OCD recovery OCD thing where like, am I doing it? Is this distraction? Is this focus compulsive? Is it not?

SPEAKER_03 19:49

Right.

SPEAKER_05 19:50

You know, it doesn't, it doesn't it then look where your attention is. If you're focusing on those thoughts, then yeah, you're probably ruminating. Yeah. So it's like, it's okay to allow the chatter whilst focusing on stuff.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

No, um we had Russ Harris on. Yeah, I got up in the wee hours of the morning. Remember, we had Russ Harris all the way from Australia.

SPEAKER_05 20:07

He talked poor guy who was a he was up late and I was up early.

SPEAKER_03 20:12

But that was a great episode because Russ talks about the Act Triflex, and we're both act fans. In the Act Triflex, do what matters is the last part of that sequence. So there it's really the there's no specific distraction activities that you need to. Oh, I gotta go for that activity when I get anxious because that calms me down. Do what matters is in the moment you're in, what more at what most accurately represents the life that you actually want to live, then try to do that. How's that? And then if you get distracted, then you're good to go.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

And remember that this is in the context of anxiety disorders. So there are circumstances where you do sit with feeling. This is where it is confusing. So in a lot of conventional therapy, because life isn't all about anxiety disorders. We have many things that crop up in life and different emotions and different things. And as a therapist, you know, you've got to spot these things. Sometimes when people say sit with the feeling, it's like don't push away the feeling as such. So maybe it's grief or anger or just utter sadness. And a good therapist will sit with you in that and be like, you know, that there's that feeling. So let's just allow the feeling to be there. That's okay. That's what they mean by sit with the feeling. But in the turn, in the in the context of this, fear of fear, misinterpretation of fear, fear of the uh threat response, compulsions. No, we don't sit with it anymore. We it's we we've given it a lifetime of introspection and feeling and and and this we've platformed it every day. It's had so much attention, that's when we don't sit with it. We just kind of take it with us and get on with our day. But don't apply it to everything. Sometimes if you're feeling sad or grief or whatever, then you do allow the that's when distraction is bad.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:57

You know, like like um, like for example. You know, if I'm grieving like uh on a particular anniversary and I'm like and I try and push it away, you know, oh no, non-anxious me wouldn't be doing that. No, I'd be like, no, actually, I'd stop there and I'd have that feeling. I'd be like, God, that's sad. God, I'm gonna feel that. That's healthy, it's not compulsive. That's a new feeling that's come up that isn't anxiety and fear of fear. It's just, oh, yeah, completely okay. But when it comes to this, anxiety has hijacked the wheel, it hijacks all the attention, and therefore we use our focus in a in a more intentional way to allow other feelings to come up.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah, which is like it's kind of I'm gonna be really corny here, but those other feelings are your birthright. They're part of it. Like that is part of your humanity. So, like, you gotta feel those. We don't, and and we often have people say things like, especially people who are along the path of desensitization or they're fully recovered, whatever, and they they're so happy that they were able to do this, that they start to try to make everything into a willful tolerance, attentional control, floating and accepting problem. And I've had people literally ask me, like, oh, it's my grandma's funeral. How do I float through that? You don't. It's your grandma's funeral. You're not supposed to float past that those huge feelings. Like, you have to know that you're going to be in those big feelings.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

Also, is your grandma's funeral at sea? That's how my brain is it's a funeral and everyone's just got individual kayaks and they're floating and bobbing along, and just like and the uh and the priest is there.

SPEAKER_03 23:32

Maybe she was a lifelong submariner, right? Who knows? My grandma's on a nuclear sub for 40 years. But you know, like so it's really weird. I I I like a thing that you said, you know, talking about distraction, because we have to be able to leverage it through attentional control. You've platformed your anxiety for years. That is a hundred percent true.

SPEAKER_05 23:52

Like they I sound impressive when you said that.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

Well, you know, it's uh yeah, it's kind of microphone. That's all it is. You have platformed anxiety for years, says Josh, and that is a nugget that you could take right now. Wait a minute now. Something else has to get a headline now and then, right? Like, imagine waking up every morning and looking at the news, and it's the same story, which it kind of is in the US every day. So I don't even look at the times every day anymore. But like you would this is crazy. Something else must be going on in the news, right? So like don't let your anxiety and those of you in the studio audience be mindful of the language you are still using while you're trying to do willful tolerance and attention attentional control. I'm burning, it was on fire, it has cement boots, it's dragging me down, it's it's it's crushing me, it's horrible, it's awful. Like, okay, well, you just gave it a platform again. So if you're going to try to move your attention, the way you do that has to be, yeah, I'm feeling really crappy right now, and I feel like I should save myself from this, but I'm gonna put that story on the side at the moment and write a different story while I talk to my mom or walk my dog or play my video game.

SPEAKER_05 24:58

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah. Oh otherwise, if you want to keep using that platforming language, you're just gonna keep writing the disaster story and thinking that you're intentionally controlling to something else, but are you?

SPEAKER_05 25:11

So price of mission there, well done. I like that. Absolutely. Two guys complimenting each other in the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 25:20

I love when I love when my friend tells me I'm saying really smart things. Wow, it makes me feel so good. Talk about a bubble.

SPEAKER_05 25:26

I only said it because I wish I'd said it. Uh here's a did it anyway. Let's take it away from uh silly uh backpatting. Um, here's a did it anyway from Sandra. Hi, Drew and Josh. In 10 attempts, I could not squeeze myself in two-minute audio. So here is a written did it anyway. My name is Sandra, and I am a Latvian living in the UK. First of all, I want to say a huge thank you for all your work and humorous approach to anxiety. On the bad days, turn to put the sword it on, and it really makes me smile and move instead of staring at my sensitized brain and being sad about the state I'm in. Good. I'm glad that we could unleash your attention a bit more. The last six months have been a wild journey, but they have certainly showed me that we are way more capable than we think we are. I got re-sensitized at the end of last year, decided that the best thing I can do is to not stop taking brave steps towards life. I switched agrophobic loneliness to a sense of belonging and community, and joined a local choir in January. So now having rehearsals, traveling to gigs, singing in front of the public, technically no escape nightmare for an anxious mind. Unexpectedly, I lost my dad in February. Losing a parent has been one of the worst fear of mine since I was five. The fear of not coping with the pain to lose control of my mind and body. But in reality, when it happens, there is no space left for anxiety. And as painful as it is, you just go through it one step in front of the other. Some moments, tears falling like rain, some feel like you're an empty shell, and some are filled with small joys of living. And yesterday, I got my first job in seven years whilst living in the UK. I am scared to fail, to not be good enough, to not be able to deal with anxiety, but I know there is no way to prove the opposite to myself if I do not try. And thanks to to you and my long years with Gad, I do know I do know my overprotective friend all too well now. If you're having a hard day today, do not give up. Take the bus, go to the grocery store, or get out of the or get off the sofa, and do not be afraid to feel. Every step matters, and it can get better. We can do it. Drew and Josh, I hope you know much of a difference you make in the anxious world.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Oh man. Well, thank you, Sandra. Those are such kind words. But like I can't even begin to tell you how many great things are in that one.

SPEAKER_05 28:00

I'm just gonna I'm not even gonna cut, I'm just gonna let that there. If you want to go back and listen to that again. That was that was really good. I can't I couldn't even couldn't even add to that. It's beautiful. Well done. Well done, Sandra. And well done on getting your job as well. That's what I mean. Well done for all of it. Just well done.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

100%. I'm gonna point out one thing because I think it's like one of the most important things Sandra maybe said. I cannot prove myself, I cannot prove the opposite unless I do the thing. Oh my goodness. Like you learning that lesson and doing it, you get huge credit for that. You can't you will not convince yourself through words, thoughts, memes, lyrics, poems, social media posts that you can handle this until you go and do it.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

Yeah. And if you want to be like Sandra and uh share your did it anyways and words of wisdom, you can do that at disorder.fm where you can submit voice notes and emails and stuff. Uh, and if you want to be part of the studio audience, you can uh always join the disordered community app. Yeah, like the people are here today. Hey everyone.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Yeah, absolutely. We have a studio audience watching us record. How about we do another audio did it anyway, real quick? For those of you I I want to segue with a hair joke because we're always picking on each other's hair. This is for all of us, and I was one of them. You would think I'm still one of them if you look at my hair now, who is afraid to go sit and get a haircut.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

Hi guys, just wanted to send in my did it slash doing it anyway. Um, my name's Laura, you can use my name. So we go to Bali for a week tomorrow with the family, which is amazing, and I'm about to get a few important things done first. So, first of all, um I suffer with or have suffered with agrophobia, panic disorder and like for quite a while. Um, and this morning I had to get my toes and nails painted and shellacked and everything, which took a good hour. So I was feeling quite anxious. I struggled to sit still, and obviously that feeling of being trapped, um, and I felt all the feels and I just sat my way through it, and now I've got the lovely nails to look at, but then I had to go for my lash and brow appointment as well, and I had to lay there with my eyes closed again for around an hour, an hour and a half, and started to feel waves of panic. I've also had two coffees today, which I wouldn't normally do. So I'm really putting myself through the ringer, and I did it anyway. Um, and as I sat up from the bed getting my lashes and brows done, I'm quite sort of somatic with my anxiety and feelings in my body, as most of us are. I felt quite dizzy because I've been laying down for a while and the room was waddling. But again, I just thought, it's fine, you're just a little bit dizzy, you've been lying down, just let it pass. And it did. So, yeah, just wanted to share my multiple did it, anyways. Thanks for everything you guys do. Love the podcast. Cheers.

SPEAKER_05 30:54

Oh, it's awesome. Well done. Uh brilliant. Also, you're gonna look great, it sounds like when you hit barley. You look a million bucks. Uh well done, and I know what that's like. You have to be still, and there's someone watching you, the pressure of all those things. Um, have you ever had to get anything shellacked, truth?

SPEAKER_03 31:17

I've never had anything shellacked, but I don't know. Maybe we're missing something. Have you?

SPEAKER_05 31:22

Yeah, yeah. Here with my so good. All those different things are required to be still. Well done. I hope you really enjoy your holiday to Bali. It'll be it'll be cracking.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

Absolutely. We have a studio audience member chiming in. Here with my long dense hair and 32 degrees centigrade heat. My goal for the summer is to get a haircut. Yeah, I get it. Man, it's a really common thing in our community, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 31:43

I'm doing a re I actually got my haircut the other day, and I'm doing a reel today where I filmed it about haircut anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Um it was a thing, man.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

Driving there, all the all the thoughts around it, like, what if I go crazy? What if I run out with half a haircut?

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Here's where I have to acknowledge that like I feel like our haircuts are probably much faster than most female haircuts. I don't know what it is, but women are in this chance. What the hell, man? I'm like 15 minutes, and I was too scared to do that. Like, y'all are hanging out there for 30 minutes, an hour, two hours. What the hell? There's foil involved, there's all kinds of stuff happening.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Oh, more than that sometimes, four or five hours. Yeah, it's crazy, man. So yeah, I'm like, fair, fair enough. Fair dudes. Absolutely. Um, it's really cool. Attention, though, you can practice with your attention even there. That's right. Sometimes my and we've not even covered this yet, so it's very important. Your attention can flip between your thoughts. Remember Drew's cab company? Sometimes when you haven't got anything to put your attention on, when you're in a situation like getting your nails done or don't know, beautifying yourself. Um, it's hard to put your attention on stuff. So a really good practice is just let fun imagination thoughts come in. You're human. The most beautiful part of the of being human is our imaginations. So sometimes if I'm there and I can't escape and I have focus, I'll just be like, well, just imagine what it would be like to, I don't know, go on holiday. Uh imagine if I was a mafia boss. Imagine all these things. What would I do? Uh and I just allow my brain to go off. You know, what am I gonna do with my business? Well, I wonder how my cousin is doing. Um, and just allowing the thoughts to come in, allow visualization to come in if you need to. Anything, you know, the attention isn't just things external, is it? It can also just be things in your mind.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yeah, it's a good point. I never really thought about that. It's a pretty solid thing.

SPEAKER_05 33:34

It's it's massive. I do that when I go to bed as well. So, like if you're asleep anxiety, some people, their attention, it's hard to put your attention on stuff. They're just obsessed with, am I falling asleep? Yeah, is this bad, ruminating, whatever? So I often use my imagination to fall asleep. I'll just imagine. I have this thing where I imagine everyone's chasing me, and then I have a little underground den, like in the countryside, and then I run inside it, and then inside my den, it's got a hidden entrance, and in there it's got like everything you need. Like it's like a bunker, like it's got cool like bed and games, consoles, and food and TV, and then I've got little cameras to spot if anyone's gonna come find me. Uh, and then I'll think like that and fall asleep. You know, that's how you do it.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

That had much more detail than I thought it would. I'm impressed.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

Honestly, I love using my imagination to fall asleep. It's really lovely. A lot if I was to design a car or if I was floating around in space, uh, rather than what if that what if I offended that person? What if I have a panic attack? What if I never recover? You know, that that's really that you ain't gonna go to sleep with that.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

That's a good point. Uh, you know what's cool about that? You know, it's very childlike, which is but that's a good thing. Remember when you were we were kids? I I always sometimes I go back to when I was a kid and like you couldn't do outdoor recess. Maybe it was raining or it was in the winter, it was snowy. And you're a little kid in elementary school, so in recess after lunch would be indoors in the classroom. And me and my friends sometimes would sit and we would just draw. We would draw the cra like we would design cars. That was like a seven-year-old boy designing a car. Yeah, everything in it that you can imagine, like the craziest. But that was just I can sit with imaginary, fanciful, these are meaningless, there's no purpose, I'm not accomplishing anything. That is a cool thing for an adult to do, also, even though it would feel like and you know what I think happens if you're sitting that came out because of the haircut thing. You're sitting in the chair often, so you can play with your own imagination as a form of attentional control. And you know, I like that. There's also small talk. I mean, I think getting your haircut, that is the small talk capital of the world. And you can engage even if it feels silly, because remember the narrative is always going to be how can I how can I talk to this person about last night's you know, baseball game while I am drowning in these feelings or I'm about to go crazy? No, that's exactly the time to talk about something as ridiculous as a baseball game. Yeah, so those are good ways to do that too. You just don't like talk to me about the Knicks game. Talk to me about what happened last night with the Knicks so that you can calm down. Like start the conversation, try it.

SPEAKER_04 36:10

Yeah, curiosity. Curiosity is always your friend, whether it's curiosity in your imagination.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Yeah, we did an episode on that too. Remember, it was anxiety and the death of curiosity. That's another good episode. We gotta send people to all episodes. Yeah, that was a good one for sure.

SPEAKER_05 36:24

Um would you like a did it anyway from the community? I absolutely would.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Love them all.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

So in the Disorder Community app, we have a Did It Anyway thread that people can, you know, upload pictures and share their wins. Uh, this one was from yesterday. I enjoyed this one. Only short one. Doing it anyway. I had a big whoosh today. I kept scanning and looking at it, making it way worse and wanting to fight or flight. I literally wanted to jump out of my skin when I feel like this. I am certain the feeling will kill me or make me go crazy. Popping a headphone in and ordering groceries, going to the store and trying not to focus on how I feel. Just gonna bring it with me. I love that one. That's so good. Uh and in the community in the community app, you can just give it a little like and stuff, and just like, yeah, absolutely. I like that. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

And on the podcast, you give it one of those.

SPEAKER_05 37:16

I'm so convinced I'm gonna die. Nah, yeah. I'll go get some groceries. Oh, you know what? Great attention shift is great attention shift.

SPEAKER_03 37:22

Absolutely. I I love it when people be like, Well, I guess I'll die in the frozen foods I though. Oh, it feels like I'm gonna die. Gotta get him in there. So we can quote your cousin, we can quote the rock. That's a damn sure.

SPEAKER_05 37:36

We've not had the eagle for a while. Let me bring him back somehow.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Wow. Actually, it was so funny. Somebody mentioned over the weekend red tail hawk. They had the sound. Instead, it was a bird watching a friend of mine, red tail hawk. And I'm like, I know that's a red tail hawk. Let me tell you why. That was a good story. Oh my goodness. So yeah, can distraction be a compulsion? It definitely can. But like, just but you don't always know exactly competing. But it also looks great. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

It can be great or it can be a composite.

SPEAKER_03 38:06

That's exactly right. So, like, all I can say is general rules of thumb, which will break down minute by minute because of individual circumstances and individual context, would be urgency is a good one. Do I have to get away with it as quickly as possible? Are you going in with the intent to calm down by trying to ignore or run from the feeling or like drown it out? Or are you willing to be brave and take a risk of engaging in something else while your brain is telling you there is a big, giant, like horrible thing about to happen to you? Yeah. I don't know. Oh good. And go get it wrong. Get it wrong a few times, and you can learn from that. There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_05 38:46

Yeah, and then leave it. Don't then analyze it endlessly afterwards. Did I do that right? Was that correct? Going on the same OCD Reddit forum and trying to just leave it. Curiosity, trial and error. Have a go.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_05 38:59

That kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

What else we got on that? Anything else? Are we all good?

SPEAKER_05 39:02

No, I think that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

40 minutes in? Absolutely. Go distract without compulsing over it. I don't know. Hopefully we answered the question. Sometimes I'm not even sure that we did, but that's all right. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05 39:12

Thank you, my friend. And I will catch you next time. Thank you for tuning in. We're here every Friday, most Fridays. Yeah. And um, yeah, thank you to the studio audience. Thank you for anyone who listens, puts us in the headphones, or we're entertaining you somewhere. And uh yeah, thanks for uh trusting in us and what we do, and we'll catch you soon.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yeah, I appreciate it. Hey, thanks for all the reviews, by the way. I'm getting a lot of really nice reviews on Spotify and Apple, so we appreciate you guys, and we'll be back next week.