Have You Learned How To Panic Yet? (Episode 122)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi Josh and Drew. Um, I always find myself coming back to the podcast when I'm starting to get a bit more anxious again. Basically, I just wondered if you had any tips because for the first time um since my panic kind of relapsed a bit, I've just got a new job, which I'm really excited about. But when my panic disorder started, it was when I got my first job, and then when I switched jobs, it relapsed again. So it seems to happen very consistently to do with the jobs. Um so I'm really worried that it's gonna get to my start date and I'm gonna crumble like I have done in the past. I'm trying to stay positive and remember all the tips, but I've just got that nagging voice in my head that's telling me that I'm gonna get to the first day and I'm gonna panic, and then I'm gonna not have a job anymore, and I will have already handed my notice in at my current workplace, and then I'll be completely without a job. Yeah, so if you have any tips on how to deal with this, I've got four weeks until I start, so I'm hoping that I can sort myself out by then. Thanks guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode one three two. Is that right, Drew? No, one two two. One two two, apologies. Uh a two-two is um Drew's favorite garment to wear. Um, so welcome to one two two. This episode is called Have We Learned How to Panic? And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. Um, I'm an author on the topic, content creator, and the co-host of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:10

And I'm joined by I'm Drew Linsolata. I am the other guy on a mic here on Disordered, also a therapist, practicing in New York. I also treat anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a former sufferer of the very problems that we talk about on this podcast. I've also written books about this and host on social media whenever I feel like it, kinda. And uh yeah, always happy to be here. Like is the as you're fond of saying, yeah, this is one of my favorite hours of the week when we get to record. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Well, it's a great question from the question sender inner. First of all, congratulations on getting a new job. Uh, that's good. That's gonna come with any natural primary anxiety, something new, one you know, natural worries, wanting to impress, have a good start, things like that. Um, but then with it, it sounds like the question sender inner has brought a secondary fear, you know. Oh, but what if my anxiety ruins everything and I'm left without a job because I can't stop panicking and I can't stop freaking out. So, yeah, that inspired today's um podcast episode. Have you learned how to panic? Uh, what do you what do we mean by that, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 3:23

I think this is one of the hardest cell in in this thing that we do and in the work that we do, I think, with our therapy clients. I'll speak for you. Maybe I'm wrong. But one of the hardest things that we have to tell people, I think, often is like, well, this isn't about learning how to not panic. This is about getting better at panicking. Like, if you really want to get over this, and so the question sender interer says that she is dealing with panic disorder. And her panic disorder is not having panic attacks. Panic attack is how you panic disorder is defined by how you modify your life to try to not panic because you fear them, you fear those attacks so much, you retreat, you change your whole life. How do we overcome that? You get better at panicking, which is I hate telling people, but that is the way it goes. So, in a situation where somebody says, Well, I I know what triggers my panic, and that's going to be a disaster. Like it goes away, but then if something triggers panic again, like I crumble, she actually uses the word crumble, and like all bets are off, and I I sink back down to the bottom of the pit, that would indicate that this person maybe never learned how to panic, they just figured out how to not panic.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

And then like we're therapists, um weirdly can can you believe that? Um, but we're therapists, and when someone, if a client came in and said, you know, I'm gonna crumble, I'm gonna lose everything. I don't know about you, Drew, but the first thing I ask is, okay, tell me what that looks like. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

What does that mean? What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Yeah, okay. And and usually what would they say?

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yeah, this is where we might play like one of those traditional CBT games, like, and then what happens? Well, then I have a panic attack in my first age job, and then what happens? Oh, and then I I I can't get to I can't do my job, and then what happens? And then I get fired, and then what happens? And then I have no money, and then I'm living in a box on the side of the freeway, and ultimately it gets to the absurd, and somebody might notice, like, okay, maybe I'm catastrophizing. That's what we're trying to get out of this for sure. But yeah, that's a very common thing. Your anxiety will tell you the worst possible story, like, but it'll always be very amorphous, too, don't you think? Like, oh, it'll be a disaster. What does that mean? What disaster?

SPEAKER_04 5:25

Yeah, we just assume that everything goes wrong, but when you actually try to explain it or play out the scenario, it's very hard to put that into place. Also, you know, you go in, and yeah, you probably will be anxious and panicky. Okay, that's the whole thing. That's uh what we're supposed to do. That is the tip. You are the coping technique, as I often bang on about. Um, but what do you think is gonna happen? You're gonna have one continuous panic attack, endless adrenaline and cortisol, inconsolable, being restrained on the floor. Your new colleagues are like, oh my god, you know, she's a mad one, isn't she? You know, and you're ostracized, and then immediately during the same panic attack, pulled into the office, and your boss is like, This isn't working, you know, sacks you on the spot. But you can, you know, you've got hair hunger and derealization. You need to be escorted out of the building because you're so dizzy, so lightheaded, because the panic never goes away, and then you're just outside with an ice cream trying to calm down, and you can't. I mean, come on, really, you're gonna go in, your heart's gonna go, and here's the thing: it's a new job, you'll have things to focus on. We always say 51% attention on things, and um use that kind of anxiety to your advantage, too. Yeah, you know, that's that's nerves aren't always a bad thing, but you've got a label that you know your brain is catastrophizing here, probably not helped by four weeks running up to your new job. I don't know when this question was sent in, by the way, but um not too long ago. Not too long ago. Two years ago. Two years ago.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

I'm not this person is already the CEO of that company.

SPEAKER_04 7:08

Actually, I was the CEO and I'm the CEO now. Uh see, great, good job. Uh but yeah, I just think I mean brains can do that and they can be very convincing when the threat response is kicked in.

SPEAKER_03 7:19

Yeah. The key thing here though is the the suggestion that what what I hear in the question is, but but it is going to be a disaster because I might panic. Like the panic is the ultimate disaster. That'll lead to like her life falling apart. I know anxiety tells you that story, of course. So yeah, we would challenge that. But what happens if you panic? Oh, I I can't. The panic attacks stop, but if they come back, I'm done. Which is not we can't, if you you can't live there, you can't set up camp and if I panic, it's over. That's really impossible because you can't guarantee, you're almost guaranteed to panic if you insist I must never panic. So we you have to like really challenge that assertion. Like, well, I don't want to panic, I am afraid of it. It's okay to say that. I was afraid of it too. I still don't want to panic now. Like it's really uncomfortable, it's very difficult. It terrifies me when it's happening. But if I dig my heels in and if a panic attack happens, then I'm back to ground zero, I'm done, stick a fork in me. You're stuck. There's nowhere to go. There's no tips for that. First, you have to challenge that assertion. That's number one tip we would give you. It's like, well, we don't we don't live in, I can't possibly panic, can't do that.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

And we're gonna be hated for it as well. Like, you know, what she's asking is, how can I make sure I don't get really anxious and embarrass myself on the first day of work? And I'm saying, no, we're saying, no, that's your homework. Go and be anxious and panic at work, yeah. Uh, and and the irony is once you are willing, uh you're more likely not to have it. Um, also I noticed in the questions that was really interesting, so why we chose it, you know, anxiety cherry-picks things, doesn't it? It'll go to to make it special, yeah. You know, so you're saying, Oh, this happened this seems to happen when I go to work. It happened the last time when I was at work, and it might happen again here at work. Yeah, but but it fails to kind of give balance to the fact that you just got a new job at a that's better, apparently, and so you've had to do more conventionally anxious things like do job interviews, do all these things, and yet you didn't mention and anxiety failed to mention how well you did there, and it's fact because you got the job, so you've obviously done really well there, but anxiety wants to cherry pick all the bits where you failed to construct some BS narrative, yeah. And and I would again look at the narrative there. Wow, actually, I could look at the situation. Anxiety hasn't stopped me really, has it?

SPEAKER_03 9:53

Yeah, that's true. That you could not have gotten the job without doing some stressful things, so yeah, and a new job is one of those like top five most stressful things an adult goes through, like on a regular basis, changing jobs, moving house, changing relationships. Like it's really it's it's it's gonna make people anxious. It makes everybody anxious.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Moving house is stressful. Um, hence why I mean I'm like half dead.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Uh no, you guys can't see him. He is literally half dead. Like it's like weekend at Bernie's right now.

SPEAKER_04 10:22

Yeah, I'm unshaven, unkempt, completely living off noodles.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

These stressful events will make us anxious. They will produce stress responses. They would do all those things, but the assertion is still it will be too much because it's gonna push into the panic zone, and that's too much. It's always the famous too much. Whatever you define that, it'll cause a heart attack, a stroke, insanity, I'll make a mess of myself, I'll embarrass myself. The assertion is always panic is too much for me to handle. And if I go back into that state, I'm done. Just stick a fork at me. That is not, I'm gonna keep challenging that this entire episode. You have to challenge that assertion. What would happen if I was wrong about that? Ask that one question. If you want a tip over the next four weeks, keep challenging that. What would happen if I'm wrong? And I can actually handle having a panic attack at work. You've handled every panic attack you've ever had. You've you just don't like how it looked and felt when you handled it, but you did it. When we say how how have you learned how to panic in relation to this is going to be too much?

SPEAKER_04 11:25

What are you actually learning when you say I've learned how to panic? Are we suggesting actually no? You're learning that there isn't such a thing as too much.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Yeah. Yeah, that's what you're learning. And I I think this is common, whether it's within like the social media community that surrounds our podcasts or whatever, or working with therapy clients, when you hear somebody say, I got better, and then I and then I relapsed, and then I got better. And then if they're dealing with panic disorder or things that involve panic attacks, the first thing I'm gonna ask is, Well, what happened so that you got better? And often they'll say, like, well, I just got, you know, I got used to going to that new job, or I got used to driving this certain amount, or I get used to being home alone for up to three hours. I can do that. And usually I'll say, Well, it sounds like you learned how to not panic. Did you actually learn how to panic? And boom, boom, and that would be the whole, like, oh, and then you get that like, damn it, oh, that was it. That's why. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

Um, when we talk about willful tolerance, I always say, nothing's changed, you just lost the willful. Yeah, that's true. Good point. Very good. That's why I love the term willful tolerance. It's not mine, but you know, you you're still tolerating it. Anyone who's anxious now, listening to this podcast, all of you are tolerating it. Your tolerance skills are 100%. The only thing is you don't relapse, you become resensitized because you're no longer willing.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

Yeah, you lose the willfulness, you're right. And you're you're forgetting the principle that like every time I panic and I get through the other side of that without turning it into a three-week meltdown in my life, which we do, and I used to do it. Like, I'll I I'll call myself out, right? I would turn a panic attack into a two-week disaster. I did that, I participated in that. Like it was very difficult. I'm not like saying I I was, you know, to at fault, but I did participate in that.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

Same.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

I was the same.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

I'm months, yeah, disorder. Right, that's what defines panic disorder. Many, many people have panic attacks more than once a year on the regular, but don't develop panic disorder because they're like, Oh, yeah, that really sucks. I hate that. But then they move on when it's over. They don't start to change their life to prevent the next one. So the big issue here becomes well, I just stopped panicking. I often they'll say, Well, I don't know why. It just they habituated, essentially, is what they did. They got used to a certain new routine. They pushed, great. Then they got used to a new routine, and so their brain stopped seeing that as a reason to like predict needing more running time or whatever. And so they stopped panicking and then everything was copacetic. But if you do it that way and you just try to learn how to not panic, whether you're actively trying to control your nervous system and knock it down and use herbs or whatever, or you just habituate to a new thing, life will break through that strategy. At some point, you will be confronted with something stressful that will tip over that will go over that wall that you built, and you'll panic and you'll be like, What happened? It came back. So it's much better to be able to say, like, well, I might panic again one day, but that's okay. Like, I can get through that.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

That's what you're so we'll talk more about this question, but I would like to break it up with a community win. I have a written one here. Would you like to hear it? Of course I would. I love these. Yeah, okay. This is from Katie. Thank you, Katie. Um, hi guys, you can use my name. It might seem small, but I think we should all celebrate our small steps to add up. Absolutely. It's been a rough week, very tired and stressful tasks at work. By midweek, my brain was spiraling on my latest anxious anxiety anxious focus, which is around existentialism and meaning. That's always a fun rabbit hole to go down. As you know, motivating yourself to do anything when tired and experiencing those thoughts is very difficult. And trying to convince yourself to willfully tolerate feeling so downtrodden is hard to do. So the last thing I wanted to do was clean the house, do the laundry, take care of busy work. My brain kept shouting, what's the point? None of it will help. But the laundry is on, the car MOT is sorted, and I'm tidying up. I did it anyway. I don't need it to change how I feel. I have to believe that this will pass and that it's okay to just feel awful on some days. Thanks for the community, whatever word we're using now. Shout out to my wonderful friends and to my kitten, Echo. Well, he takes a lot of energy, he's a constant little ray of light, wishing everybody some joy. Oh, very good. And a big hello to Echo. Also, that's not a small win. That's like that's fundamentally you existing in a moment and choosing to shift your focus, attention, and reframe the problem. That's not that's massive. And actually, those are the little yes, we can do these big events that we build up to and we'd go and do scary things, but ultimately the majority of your day is at home doing the menial stuff like that. So I think that's a massive win. And don't um, yeah, don't discount the effort that that took.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah, I I love how this often we talk about, you know, I was panicking, I was really anxious, and I and I did it anyway. This is almost the opposite. There may have been some anxiety in there too, but this is the whole like, what's the point? Which is a little bit more of the other side of the spectrum, a little bit more of that depressed side of the spectrum. And often when we're in that situation, just getting up and taking care of yourself is a really big deal. Do not minimize that. That's within depression, we often just start there. That's the behavioral activation. You're gonna have to just brush your teeth, comb your hair, get dressed, take care of your chores. That is a huge win if you're feeling if you're feeling it at the point.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

And it could be the depression side as well, but also existential OCD or existential rumination will always throw that nihilistic question at you. What's the point? Yeah. To which I always say there doesn't really have to be one. But actually, the point of doing my laundry is that I can finally put on some fresh clothes and stop smelling like a bin.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Yeah, what's the point will ruin your day sometimes? I remember those days, and it'll just put it takes the wind out of your sails, I guess. So the fact that you know Katie was able to like put the wind back in her sails, even if she had to fake it. We've talked about this. Sometimes you're literally just faking it. I don't really feel like doing this, but I'm gonna fake it. Watch what happens. You never know. So well done.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

I was gonna say something really inappropriate then, but I'm not. Let's back to the back to the topic.

SPEAKER_03 17:59

Good job, Josh. Self-censoring Josh today. Uh okay, so what does it look like to learn? How do you teach somebody how to learn? Because I know the question that will invariably be asked is, but how do I learn how to panic? Right? How am I supposed to learn how to panic? That's so terrible. What does that even mean? What would what would you say?

SPEAKER_04 18:20

You you first all set the intention. So I'm gonna go and do this thing and see how well I can do whilst panicking. You know, that's the that's how you do it. Like, because if if you go somewhere without the minus the intention, and and intention's very important. So if you if you're going somewhere and you're like, Oh, I hope I don't panic today, you're gearing your brain already for hypervigilance and caution and threat monitoring. Yeah, but if you go somewhere like, right, I'm not gonna enjoy this, but I know it's good for me, a bit like going to the dentist, you know, and I'm gonna be uncomfortable. I'm gonna see how well I can cope whilst panicking. Or I don't even use the word panic. I'm like, what can you do with that adrenaline rush? You know, you're not gonna be able to concentrate fully, you're not gonna be able, but what can you do with that? Despite that, that's how you learn to panic.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

Yeah, I'm sorry, I stepped all over you there.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

Do you have something else? Yeah, a fork. It's going straight in your eye. The pitchfork is back out. The intention is so important. I think it it occupies two spaces. One is the exposure space, which by the way, if you're confused, well, we'll get to that in a second. But a lot of people try to do exposure. I have to face my fear. I hear it, I have to face the fear, I have to float through it, I have to tolerate it, have to do all that stuff. And they do that while also trying to not panic or not be afraid. You could stop doing that. That's that's not worth anything. Or I mean it's it is if you get something done in your life, but I have to face my fear, but also try to not be afraid, is that that's not gonna work for you. Like, I have to go face my fear, right? That means I will go intentionally choose to trigger myself into a panicked or frightened state. Or life is just gonna make you do it, but you have to recognize before I go out the door, life is making me do this. I don't really want to. I am probably going to be really anxious. I might even panic when I go out the door, which is such a big deal. It's a big difference than like, oh god, I hope I don't panic. I hope I don't panic. I hope I don't panic. So you got to go in accepting, like, I am an anxious person at the moment, and there's a good chance that I will panic. If I'm doing an exposure, I'm doing it to try to panic. So like start there. You have to start there.

SPEAKER_04 20:32

What if an intrusive thought makes you panic? So it's not necessarily anything to do with location.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Yeah, well, then that might happen too. Like, you know, there's no special thing there. Well, I had an intrusive thought and it scares me or disturbs me so much, threatens my identity so much, feels unsafe so much that I go into a panic. Okay. So like you'll have to work through that feeling too. Like, well, and the next step after that is am I willing to not try to save myself? So whether you're triggered by where you go or you're triggered by a thought, there's going to be a quick, almost automatic urge to do something to get away from that experience. If it's an intrusive thought, you may begin to like compulsively argue with the thought, prove it untrue, ask other people like for verification and reassurance that that thought isn't true. Or if you're out driving or going to your job, it will be go back home real quick or call a safe person or get your ice packs. The trick is I'm choosing to panic if it happens. I I accept that that might happen. Now, what can I do? What can I learn from this? Well, the first thing I have to do is see what I really want to do and don't do that. That's such a big ass. But that in a nutshell is the how this works. And then I gotta learn from that. I have to take a lesson from that. That's really important, also.

SPEAKER_04 21:42

I used to just say, like, right, here's the adrenaline, but facts are on my side. So my body can't maintain this level of scaredness for this long. You know, like so like that is a fact. Can't do it unless unless you've got like An IV drip with extra adrenaline, you know, just to really ramp up the exposure. You know, can you can you imagine pan panic attack ultimate exposure where, like, right, I'm gonna I've I've got a finite amount of adrenaline and cortisol on board and I'm gonna burn through that really quickly. It's gonna feel really intense and then it's gonna pass, and then I'm gonna feel great. Frame it like that. I have a finite amount, and even if you want to do a positive reframe on panic, the more intense it feels, the quicker your body is burning through it.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

That's probably right. Yeah. And you have to remember that like I think those are great framing statements. And we that's a foundation upon which all have you learned how to panic is the title of the episode. There is a foundational truth that we have to rely on, which is that it always ends. Not just panic, but anybody listening, remember the last time you were really, really happy? Maybe it was Christmas with a family, or maybe you were out with your partner and you're having a great time or with your friends. Are you still that happy right now? Were you worried in that moment? Like, oh my God, what if this happiness never ends? Of course you weren't, because we know that all of our internal experiences are transient. All of them. That's just the rule. That's the way it goes. So we are relying on that. Now, while you're in it, this is where you and I tend to part ways just a little bit. I'm not a big fan of if it's not working and you've been trying it over and over, this is gonna end. I got this, it's just anxiety, it's gonna end. Now, if that helps you right away when you use that and you can relax into it and let it run its course, awesome. But if you've been trying to talk yourself into that belief for five years and it isn't working, then you got to drop that. That helps you to decide I will go and intentionally panic because I know it's gonna end if I just let it. So important. We have to land on that. Yeah, but what if it never ends? That's not a question. That's actually not a question, like it always ends.

SPEAKER_04 23:45

Yeah, yeah, we do differ a bit on that, I mean, I don't mind saying I don't mind it's just things obviously not doing it as the magic spell, yeah. Like as it goes away, but I'm like, uh when I when you say just anxiety, you're minimizing it.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

Oh, it's anything, right?

SPEAKER_04 23:59

Yeah, it it it it's just anxiety, it's just a headache, it's just tiredness, it's just whatever, you know. Whereas uh for me, anxiety would try and convince me it was 50,000 different things. 100. So I'm like, it's just anxiety, I'll leave it alone.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

Yeah, that's that's the yeah, we don't I don't think we disagree on it that much. I I just tend to look for the time where the person keeps trying to convince themselves over and over and over and can never fully believe it.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Well then let's oh yeah, like ritualistically, yeah. When you use it into when you techniqueify it, no, that's it depends why you're saying it. I think it's okay to give yourself assurances vocally, even though I think that's more of a human thing, though, because it's not doing anything on a brain level because you can't communicate to the amygdala using your voice, it's impossible. But it I think it's just okay to for you to speak to yourself as a friend sometimes, like yeah, you got this. Yeah, you know, you got this, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:50

Reminder, I can I can I can relax, I can let this happen.

SPEAKER_04 24:54

Yeah, or sometimes when that years ago when I was doing anxious exposures, I picked some of the expletives that come out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Like, I was like, Come on, you bastard, bring it on. I can relate to that 100%. You're gonna have there's that clip. I don't know what show Ozark it might have been. There, I never watched Ozark, but it's the little short petite woman screaming, if you want to stop me, you're gonna have to effing kill me. Bringing it into the camera. That was me, like after a while. I get so angry that I would do stuff like that. So yeah, that but that's how we learn how to panic. And what did that so what did that teach you? When you're standing on the, you know, you're walking around Manchester, like, bring it on, you bastard, and nobody knows what the hell you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

That's how everyone around Manchester speaks anyway.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

That's a Tuesday on a on a dude.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

I just want some milk.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

What what did you learn from that? Like, what did that teach you? What did that experience teach you?

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Um it taught me that I still have power and agency with a condition that often convinces you or tricks you into thinking you haven't.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really important. That's how we learn how to panic. Well, ultimately, when we say learn how to panic, maybe we're being a little facetious, but like you learn that it's you don't am I gonna panic? You don't learn that like the answer is no, I won't panic. You what you learn is I don't have to answer that question anymore. Like I might have a panic attack today, you know, so far into recovery that I had the nerve to become a therapist, but I might panic today. I don't know what's gonna happen in two hours. Maybe I will. But I I hope you I hope you do. Thanks. I appreciate that. I think the last time that happened a while back, and you and I happened to be, were we playing Satys Factory? And I'm like, I think I'm having a panic attack. And you're like, my advice is to believe everything your brain is telling you. Like you believe everyone. It's all true.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

The worst advice ever.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

I wouldn't, I don't but uh you know, I don't the what I learned by that I learned how to panic is I don't have to ask the question, will I panic today? I never ask that question. I don't have that's not a question that needs to be asked anymore. Right. So you don't learn that the answer is I won't panic. You learn that I don't have to ask that question because it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Yeah, I I'd rather not today, but if I do, then I you know I've practiced panicking enough. Yeah, so if I do have one, it's fine. I'd rather not. There we are.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Yeah, yeah, I would hate it. But when we say, Did you have you learned how to panic? What you are learning is that if you panic, it doesn't matter. There we go. I knew I was gonna get it in today.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

I've been trying to shoe on that in all all episodes. It's like a giant kid. Um I just wanted to touch on this well, uh look at the other factors there. I can hear some other factors in the question. So the question is it's always in work, stuff like that. Um and I always advise people like, look, why is that so important? And maybe look at other factors like judgment. What does it mean doing these things? Why do you assume that if you're not 100%, you'll be rejected and dismissed? These are just little themes that pick up, it isn't just all about the panic. The problem isn't always just about anxiety. We exist outside of anxiety disorders, and I'd be like, because then it's a fear that I would share. Like if I'm at work and I, you know, I would rather not have a panic attack in front of people, but I also don't possess the belief that me panicking in front of people is gonna make them push me away and whatever and reject me and etc. So I'd also look at that as another facet of what's going on. Um, because anxiety disorders can bring a lot of emotional associations for people, particularly those who've been dismissed or you know, only treated conditionally as opposed to unconditionally. And what does anxiety look like as a symbol to you? So for me, I'd just be like, all right, just go to work, have a panic attack, you know. If you need it's all cool, it's all it's all good, you know. But if that brings and dredges up feelings of shame and and and things and fear of ejection, stuff like that, I'd explore that maybe in therapy and reflection and stuff. But I just thought I'd put that in there as well.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

I think the other the I would add to that the whole sometimes the the objection to what do you mean I have to learn how to paddock? What do you mean I have to allow that? Number one, it's just scary, so that's true for everybody. But if you came, if you were raised in an environment where you were punished for being really emotional or really demonstrative, or you were told that your anxiety or your sadness ruined someone else's day and that wasn't allowed, or you were termed weak or disruptive or like horrible because you were too emotional or too much, the idea of letting yourself panic might seem doubly scary. Not just because panic is scary in the moment, but you could be violating all of those cultural or family dynamic rules that you were that were forced on you. You must keep it under wraps. We're only okay if everybody is either happy or just like level. So that's another place where sometimes the idea that learning how to panic is like, oh, I can't do that, it's not allowed.

SPEAKER_04 29:56

Big deal. I completely agree. Uh, we have a din-it anyway of someone who is learning how to panic, don't we?

SPEAKER_03 30:03

Yes, as a matter of fact, we do. We have a couple of them, so let's play this one first. Yeah, let's do this one. It's pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Hey Josh and Drew. Uh, my name is Logan. Um, you're welcome to use it. Uh, just wanted to call in and share a um did it anyway. I uh got invited unexpectedly to a concert by a friend who lives a little bit um little bit under two hours away uh from my house. Um it was to see a band called LCD Sound System that I've been a big fan of for a long time. I was feeling really anxious that day. I had drank the night before to celebrate um something, and I was a little hungover. I was tired, I didn't sleep well, but I told myself, you know, I've this is a band I've always wanted to see. I've stumbled into a free ticket randomly, and um let's do it. And I was anxious about driving up there alone. I didn't know if I was gonna drive home that same night. Um, all these you know racing thoughts, how I'm gonna feel, what if I panic at the show and ruin, ruin it for everybody, ruin it for my friend, um, all these different racing thoughts. And I ended up going and having an absolute blast. Um, certainly had some anxiety at different points of the show, but um just kept trying to redirect my attention to um to the great music um and and to the the the good time I was having. So just wanted to share that success. And um I did end up driving home that night as well uh pretty late, um, which was a challenge in and of itself. Um, but really proud of myself and um and just wanted to share that for anybody else out there who who who's worried about doing something that they know they want to do or they've always wanted to do, but their anxiety gets in the way and tries to tell them that they wouldn't enjoy it or wouldn't be able to do it. So thanks so much for all you guys do.

SPEAKER_04 31:52

Good job. That's how you do it. Well done. Logan Logan demonstrated it perfectly, you know. Was Logan entirely anxiety free during the LCD sound system gig? No, because he was practicing and being anxious, and and actually it's okay. It's okay that's it. I expected this to happen. Uh whether you know it's a gig or first day at work, you know. I expected this to happen, but look, my attention is still arguably in my control, some of it. And you know, I I can tune into what I know that I'm enjoying. So well done. I've also seen L C D sound system a few years back, they're very good.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Yeah, they're from Brooklyn, by the way. That's where I'm from. Just saying. I could have been an L C D sound system. Who knew?

SPEAKER_04 32:35

I suddenly dislike them all of a sudden.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

No, we hate you know, Logan was pretty first of all, he deserved a little Billy Mays because like I was drinking the night before. I had to drive home like on my own, really late at night. Like, he just kept kept winning here, which is really awesome. Well, you have the button, Drew. I know I do. I can't remember which one is Billy Mays.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

I need to get one of these button things. No, in fact, I know that's not a good idea. But yeah, we should not give Josh the button.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

But Logan was able to point out I was redirecting my attention back to the band, back to the show. So for the question sender interer that built this whole episode for us, and thank you, by the way. Great topic. I I might be in the middle of panic. I might be really, really uncomfortable. It's okay to say I hate this, I'm afraid, I wish this didn't happen. You could say all of those things, but I'm gonna take the risk or it feels like a risk, or try something super radical and do my best to pay attention to this training manual they just gave me or this video they're asking me to watch on my first day. I'm gonna do my best to watch this while I feel this way. That's yeah. So, like it feels like a risk to not pay attention to the panic, but that's how we learn. So 100%. Yeah. We got another one. Should we play another one? More, more, we want more. All right, let me make sure that I set this up correctly because my brain isn't working so well today. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Amber. You can use my name. I wanted to share a did it anyway that I actually just did right now. I was so excited I wanted to share. Um, so just a little context for the last year and a half, I've been struggling with I got diagnosed with panic disorder, an agoraphobia. It all started basically when I was driving to a store, had a panic attack in the store, continue to have a panic attack on the ride home, and it terrified me. I thought that I was gonna hurt somebody, hurt myself in the car because I was so dizzy, heart racing, all of the physical side effects of anxiety. Um, and so since then I have been terrified to drive. I've tried to dabble in it a little bit, but always just couldn't make it past, you know, a couple maybe down the road or something or in a parking lot. Since then, I've been listening to your podcast, I've gone to therapy, I've been on a new medication, and I just remember what you said so many times about doing it anyway, doing it even though you know you're gonna be anxious and not letting that fear control you. And today, I don't know, out of a whim, I came to church with my husband. We were running late, so we didn't have time to stop for coffee like we normally do. And so I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna jump in the car and I'm gonna get coffee for the both of us. And I did it. I went in the car and I drove even over a bridge because we live near the ocean, over to a nearby Starbucks. It probably was a 10-15-minute drive, and I am so proud of myself that I did it anyway. I thought, you know what, I might be anxious, this might be scary, but the need for wanting to be independent, wanting to drive again, wanting to do something for my husband, I think just over overcame that fear, and I thought there's nothing to be afraid of. I don't have to be scared of fear anymore. And I just wanted to share that and thank you guys so much because listening to your podcast has really, really helped me.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Amber got cut off at the end. Two minutes evidently is the recording limit, but nonetheless.

SPEAKER_04 35:58

Yeah, well done, Amber. That's a brilliant one. And um, I loved I loved hearing the the pride in people's voices when they when they do that and uh and and well deserved. Uh while I'm getting coffee. Uh where's our coffee, Amber?

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Yeah, we're waiting, but okay. Amber like connected to what is important to her in life. She wanted to do something nice for her husband. She doesn't want to be ruled by the fear anymore. That is so key. So the person who asks us, you know, I have four weeks before I start my new job. What do I any tips? You have four weeks to practice getting better at working through that fear. Because what you're really looking for here is I'm not trying to guarantee that I never panic. I'm just tired of being restricted by my own body and mind. Like I don't I don't want to be afraid of myself anymore than the witches, which Amber is connecting to and her did it anyway. So go practice, practice, practice, practice. Four weeks, you do a lot of damage in four weeks in a good way.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Yeah, I think you can do well. We hope that was helpful for you. And um, again, if you've got any questions, you can uh log on to disordered.fm. Um, another shout out as well. We're gonna have the disordered app out soon for people that want to um get a bit more involved in actually starting a community or whatever cult. I don't I'm a I'm open to suggestions. Um and also we'll have our health anxiety book out very, very soon. We're just waiting for the cover to be finished. I can't wait. Um, but yeah, um sign up to mailing list to be the first to know about these things and thank you for tuning in.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Yeah, 100%. If you want to learn a little bit more about the mechanics of how to learn how to panic, I am doing an exposure workshop on September 4th, 2025. If you're listening in the future, you can get it on the replay. Just go to learn that the anxious truth.com and you'll see it there. I'll link it in the description. Should be great. Especially if you're doing the whole, like, I'm gonna face my fear, but try not to be afraid. I will kind of help you with that. So cool. All right, guys, thanks for hanging out. We'll see you next week. We're out of here. See ya later.