Getting Out Of An Anxious Head (Episode 117)

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I've suffered with anxiety and uh OCD and DPDR for a long time now. I've continued to live my life as I think I would have if I were non-anxious me. I got married, I've changed careers a few times, I've had two kids, uh, renovated a house and traveled, uh, all that sort of thing. Despite this though, I'm I'm still kinda stuck with uh disordered anxiety and that constant sort of feeling of dissociation. I think the reason is because I find it very difficult to stay out of my own head. How do you go about doing the things that you need to do while staying out of your head and not overthinking things, not ruminating, in a way that it doesn't feel like a constant battle.

SPEAKER_04 0:54

This is episode 117 of the podcast entitled How to Get Out of Your Own Head. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, a former sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD depression for many years of my life on and off, but much better now. A three-time author on this topic, guy with an expensive microphone, social media dude, advocate, all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

And uh yeah, here to uh co-host another episode of Disordered with I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, a psychotherapist, an author, and content creator based in Manchester in the UK. Um, and a proud co-host of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:36

So we're how do we gonna get out? How do we get out of our own head? By the way, the question sender inter was Shane, who said we could use his name. Thank you so much, Shane. And good job, like doing all the things he's doing, he's living his life, which is really awesome.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

Yeah, I mean, some that's what you build upon. Look at look at what you've managed to achieve, you know. Um, yeah, how'd you get out of your own head? I mean, no one can do it on demand, I guarantee you that. Not a single person, because that's not how brains and thoughts and attention works. But I get what you're saying. You're saying, you know, I think there's something I'm doing inwards that keeps making me care. I care, I have this DPDR, I I find myself in this sensitized state, and it just feels like the last thing I need to kind of get my head around.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

Yeah, I think you're right. I think the most important thing you just said is nobody can do this on demand. And maybe it's the definition of out of your own head, which is really tricky because everybody has their own experience, right? We can never fully share someone else's experience, but uh getting out of your own head doesn't mean that that the thoughts, how am I feeling, how am I doing, am I anxious, is it going away, or what is that? Those thoughts are automatic. You can't decide to not have them. So the trick I think is probably learning to more like coexist in real time with those thoughts than get away from them. So out of my own head doesn't mean like I the thoughts I don't hear them or they go away. It means I bring them with me.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

Yeah, often as well, Shane, um like any thing that you fear or that you don't want to be there, it's more likely to disappear when you're okay with it being there. Same with DPDR. How many people are obsessed about DPDR and then when you finally realize I'm okay with DPDR, I don't like it, but I'm my willful tolerance skills are amazing, you suddenly find that you're less and less dissociated. Or your association with dissociation um is is more positive, it's less emotionally charged. So when you find yourself, and I'm just gonna presume here, Shane, when you find yourself in your head, and you're like, oh no, I'm in my head again, oh no, I'm ruminating, oh no, I'm scanning, uh is the DPDR there, I'm testing, I'm fighting it, and stuff like that. It sounds like that whole process has become annoying for you. And I think part of it is realizing, okay, sometimes I do that, sometimes I am in my own head, it's not right or wrong, but I can willfully tolerate that inwards compulsion habit that I've had for this long, and then it's more likely that my brain and attention will go on to something else.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

Yeah, I think the fight when Shane says, like, oh, it's how do you do it without it feeling like a fight is probably frustration. So, like, and you have to make room for that. You're gonna be frustrated because I get it, like I'm tired of feeling this way. So the frustration is normal and you have to be able to express that. But the frustration doesn't necessarily mean you're fighting, it just means I'm feeling frustrated. So, for instance, that might actually look like you know, when the thought about like when is this gonna go away, or like what how how come I feel so bad? What is this? What triggered this? Oh, yeah, I noticed that I'm I'm thinking a lot about something that's important to me right now, and I'm really frustrated. But what else can I do while I feel these feelings when and I have these thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 5:05

Uh and remember, willful tolerance applies to this as well. Even this. It sounds like, and I'm gonna guess again, Shane. Sorry if I got it wrong. But you're someone who listed off your very impressive achievements, you know, despite having an anxiety disorder, I've got cheers, we've got married, we've done this, you know, gone traveling. That's amazing. But don't be careful not to add this to a list of perfectionist traits.

unknown 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Well, I've completed 90%. It's like trying to get 100% achievements on Skyrim. You'd be there all day. Like you just can't do it. So what you need to do is just be like, right, look at what actually happened there. You were willing to be anxious, hence why you could get married. You you were willing and accepting of change and uncertainty and discomfort when you change careers, because you knew more willing to have that, it will go. Yeah, you know, maybe with agrophobic traits or whatever. There was a part where you were willing, you were willing to tolerate that. But now look at this on your checklist. Where's the willingness? Actually, no, I'm getting frustrated. I want to complete it all. There we go.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

Yeah. And one of the silly things, and that's silly, I mean, it's a reasonable question. A lot of people, I'm sure you could ask this too, will be like, so what you're saying is I just have to be okay with feeling like this for the rest of my life. Well, kinda, because the paradox is if you can recognize that I don't want to be like this the rest of my life, but I could be if I had to, then the odds that you're gonna be like this the rest of your life tend to drop dramatically. So no, we're not like saying, like, okay, Shane, you just have to be like deep, you just have to be depersonalized for the rest of your life and be cool with that. Like, no. But I know that if it does pop up, I can handle it. And like, I don't want it to last all day, but if it does, uh, it's okay. Like, I can deal with that because you're much less likely to have it last all day. So, like, how do you get out of your head? Well, this is I I always start with like this is important to you. How you feel is in fact important to all of us. We don't get to just decide to like not care how we feel. You do care how you feel, and that's okay. That's normal for all human beings. So just acknowledge it first. Like, well, I'm good, my mind is going to make thoughts about how I feel, because I do care how I feel. No one says don't care. And I think a lot of times people misinterpret that message too. Like, I have to just not care how I feel. No, you can care how you feel. You just can't turn it into an act of emergency when you don't feel the way you want. So start with acknowledging that, like, I do care about this, so therefore my mind will make these thoughts, and now I have to decide what I'm gonna do in response when my mind does make the thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

The best way I like to get out of my head is to listen to a community did it anyway. What do you think, Drew? I think it's a good plan, so let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Alex, and I'm from Stockholm, Sweden. And you can use my name, that's cool. Um, so I've been struggling with panic disorder and agoraphobia uh for a couple of years, which of course has made it very difficult for me to live a life I want to live and go to the places I want to go. Um, but a couple of days ago, I took a huge leap um in going to my parents' country house for the first time, which they bought last summer, and it's like one and a half hours away from Stockholm. I went in the car with my stepdad there, and uh I took the bus home uh by myself. And the whole journey, you know, it took a while. Um it was a proper trip, and it was very scary and uncomfortable. Um, and the symptoms were bubbling up, but I did it anyways. Um, and it feels like a huge win now, afterwards, and I'm very happy that I did it. Um and yeah, I'm so grateful for everything that you guys do, your books and podcasts, everything. Um, it's a huge help for me and so many others. Um so thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Alex crushed it. Well done, Alex. Uh that was brilliant. Well done, my my friend. Uh also, where was our invite to your parents' country house? I know. We lost in the mail. Swedish mail is slow, I hear. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 9:34

Well done, Alex. No, good job. Really good job. You know that when I was listening to it, I'm like, an hour and a half in the car. I remember how scary that would have been for me. That was that would have been really hard. And then on the bus alone coming home, that sounds like worst nightmare for an agoraphobic. So really well done.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

But he he Billy mazed it there, though. An hour and a half there, staying away from home, then the bus. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, very well done.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

So let's talk about again getting back to let's go, let's go back into our own head again. Yeah, yeah. It's nobody wants to be in my head. It's just not it's such a cluttered place. Uh so you know, but what's in there? All right, so let's go back and let's go back in anxious anxiety, Josh's anxious mind. Go back in time. What was in there when you were in your own head?

SPEAKER_03 10:21

In the middle of being in the middle of like, yeah, your worst, you know, when you were in the thick of it. Okay. Uh I would be immediately in threat alert mode. Open my eyes, you know, rather than thinking, oh, I wonder what joys the day will bring. Uh it was like, where's the threat? How am I? How's my mood? What am I doing? How's the anxiety there? Did I sleep? Did I not sleep? How am I gonna get through today? I only slept two hours. So I've only slept two hours and I'm not gonna cope. The anxiety's gonna be worse. How can I go to work? Shall I ring in sick? I won't ring in sick, I will go in, but I'll tell my boss just in case I am anxious, and then I need to take some breaks. Oh, I'm on the bus, mom away. Oh, I can feel it going up now. Shall I have a coffee to wake up so I'm good for work? But if I'm not good for work, oh my god, if I have coffee on two hours' sleep, that might make me more anxious, and then therefore my heart might race and then might have to go home. So then I have to go home. Oh no, no, I should go into work. I should do that. Claire Weeks says float, but what does float actually mean? It's a bit vague. It's a bit vague. What should I do there? Oh now I'm in work, whatever. And then as soon as I actually engage in work, like at the time I was working in a school, I was helping the kid with his maths, and it was just like oh I notice I'm calmer. Why? Because I just decided to engage my brain in attention to something non-anxious me would do. Non-anxious me wouldn't sit there training for the overthinking Olympics. I hope you enjoyed my brain's interpretation of a nice normal day, by the way. Yeah, for me then. And um yeah. The role of the attention that I was watching this infinite scroll of anxiety, ruminations, what ifs, whatever in my head, thinking that I was preparing for the day, like I was working on something. No, it wasn't. It was just nonsense. It was like a Yeah, it was just oh, it was like a terrible movie, a Woody Allen film in my head. And that's what was going on, and I had to uh learn to disengage.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Yeah, that sounded pretty accurate. That was a really actually great narrative of what it what it would sound like in somebody's head. I I have a very similar narrative for sure. And so getting out of that, sometimes was it accidental though? So, like, okay, I forced myself to go to work, and for me it was I'm forcing myself to go and do my stuff, but while I'm doing it, I'm constantly choosing to check in and evaluate how I'm feeling. And oh, this feels terrible, and is it getting worse? And oh, what's that feeling? How come I suddenly feel weird? How come my legs feel heavy now? So I was doing the things, but I was I wasn't really involved in doing the things until accidentally I would find myself distracted and out of my own head because some demand was placed on me and then and my I I responded to it, and like my brain wandered off into that direction. And I and I didn't notice how I felt.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

Yeah, you've also got to make over time, you've got to make anxiety the least interesting thing in the room. If you're an avoider and you sit in a in the same four walls of your bedroom, anxiety becomes the most exciting thing in the room. Whether you like it or not, it becomes the most interesting. Part of getting out of there and doing what non-anxious you would do is going out and retraining the brain what is more interesting. So Shane's questions like how do I get in my head out of my head or whatever, then in that room where wherever you are in, or whatever's happening in your life, what have you helped to train the brain to say what is more interesting? And that could just be, I'm not just saying that with your behavior. Like sometimes I had it the other day, I was feeling a bit anxious, stressed, overwhelmed, and then I thought, actually, there's a project I'm really interested in doing. Uh and so I started thinking about that instead. Because I trained the brain from engaging with, as Drew says, values-driven stuff, or what non-anxious me would do. I'd managed to train the brain to be like, oh, I'll switch to that then instead. But those years ago, anxiety, admittedly, was the most exciting thing in my life. I hated it, I wanted to solve it. Yeah, I hated how I felt, I didn't understand it. And so, therefore, that TV show, ringing a friend, doing all these hobbies, isn't gonna trump that. But once you make anxiety boring and predictable, and I need to get off this, and you start to get in touch with what non-anxious you would like to do again, you you'll find you'll get out of your head a bit quicker.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

There it is. I knew it was coming.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

Anyway, that was the correct answer sound soundtrack.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

It was 100%. That was our game show correct answer sound. Sometimes it would what what I can do now to get out of my own head is to recognize, you know, I'm stressed or I don't like this experience right now, whatever it is that's going on. I don't, you know, I like this at the moment. And oh wait, I'm fighting it. I could see that I'm fighting what I'm feeling right now. So, like, how do I how do I not do how do I get out of my own head? Like a deflation almost. Like I'm gonna exhale, I'm gonna deflate that balloon, and I'm gonna remember that. No, no, I actually want to do this instead. It doesn't mean that the stress feelings or the anxious thoughts would ever go away, but oh no, I I recognize that all I really want to do is is problem solve my feelings right now, but uh that's not a good move. So I'm gonna let them be here and I'm gonna intentionally move my attention flashlight somewhere else, point at something different. Which is really hard to do because at the time, when you were really anxious, that didn't feel like the right thing to do. So when you mentioned examples like phone a friend or watch this TV show or maybe read a book, in my mind back in those days, like those were not options. Like how but how? How do you do but how do you read a book when you feel this way? I know that's because the assertion is this has to be the most important thing. I must pay close attention to this because it feels so dangerous and overwhelming. Experiment. Try reading a page with a book. You'll probably suck at it, but that's the way to start to get out of your own head. It's an experimentation process.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah. In in my head, it's like say you're watching a YouTube video, particularly one of the old ones, and then suddenly a banner pops up saying, You will die in ten, nine, eight. And you're trying to watch your your YouTube video, but you cannot help but look at that. Because it's popped up, it's invasive, it's right all over you. Part of disengaging that that is the banner that counts down to your death. You know, that that anxious thing that maybe Shane struggles with. Why is the DPDR here? Why is this there? You can't click off the banner, just let it be there.

unknown 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Keep watching what's behind the banner. Yeah, I gotta look around. Is it gonna be as enjoyable as if the banner wasn't there? No. But you can still engage, and then it will finally disappear. It's yeah, it's like uh watching having split screen somewhere. You can have one screen on with your work, but then if you put the Lord of the Rings trilogy on to your left and try and do your work, it is possible to do your work, yeah, and it is possible to tune in, but you will often find yourself going, Wow, there's there's five seconds of two of any female-to-female dialogue in this entire trilogy. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Was that one scene where Eowyn talked to a kid and happened to be female? That was it. That was the whole thing. Yeah, that was it. I mean, you got it. Yeah, and then it goes let's get back to the dudes quick. You're right. You won't be good at either watching the film or doing the work. Like you're kind of stuck at both of those things, but you can do it, and that's what you learn. That's how to get out of your own head. Like, I have to experiment with like trying something else. I have to try something else. Even though it feels wrong, I'm gonna try it anyway. And that's how I learned to get out of my own head.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Why is that British guy saying film? It's movie.

unknown 18:18

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

You asshat.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

It's move. Go to the movies, not the cinema. The cinema.

SPEAKER_02 18:25

Put your pinkies out. I wish I had my Robert on your soundtrack.

SPEAKER_04 18:30

I have it here somewhere. I just never loaded it. Um yeah. So like getting out of your own head can be really frustrating. But and I think let's let's speak to the GAD people for a second here. Like, because I think the GAD people make a career. Their full-time job is being in their own heads. Except sometimes for people who suffer with GAD, it's right to be in my head. Thinking is the right thing to do all the time. So my problem is I'm an overthinking or I'm an overthinker. I'm up in my head all the time. But in that presentation, usually it's a real challenge to say, but that's actually not a good idea. Oh, I know it makes me feel terrible, but it's really a good idea. Like I I can't not think. I I have to I have to pay attention to these things, right? Ooh. So and the answer is no, not necessarily. So that could be a really difficult thing. It's not always about like, oh, I just I know it's the best thing to do to walk the dog or call a friend or whatever. Maybe uh for some people, depending on the presentation, but for people who have a vested interest in thinking, not just because of safety feelings in the moment, like the person with maybe OCD or panic disorder or agoraphobia, the person with GAD will often feel like thinking is not just about finding immediate safety. Thinking is part of my identity. That's how I control the world, that's how I care for my family, that's how I prove my worth, my love, my caring, my concern. Like, so I know getting out of my head is something I really want to do, but also something I should definitely not do because this is a useful activity.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

But is it it it blows some people's minds though, doesn't it? Where like it's probably something you've done all your your life or most of your life, but when when you say that over analysis and rumination, there are other ways to default your thinking stuff. Yeah, like what that's just thinking, that's just how I operate. And when you kind of say, no, no, you can just not like there are other ways to that. And I was like, whoa, particularly with Gadders, uh puro OCD people's like, no, no, that's just what I do when I have a spare second. That's my default function. And it's like, oh, alright, then let's have a look at that function and and see how that is affecting your life and if it's making anxiety better or worse. So worse for me, my default thought world with default compulsion was the inwards compulsion, going inwards, ruminating, scanning, whatever's like, oh you know you've recovered from anxiety when your default thought isn't is it there, is it not? Yeah, what can I solve?

SPEAKER_04 21:02

Yeah, how do I feel? Yeah, I go over days on end without wondering thinking about how I feel now. Maybe for default.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

The only healthy anxiety-related thought is hmm, I've just finished work. I wonder when Drew and Josh's health anxiety book is about to drop. That's okay. Yeah, ruminate on that all you want.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Like we encourage it. It's it's weird though, because the default, you know, so whether it's a default thought for immediate safety or default activity or default whatever, which we all have, by the way. Left our own devices, your mind is gonna make thoughts about yourself. That's the default mode network. We all have that. But for people Yeah, right. It's a I promise it's not narcissism or anything like that. It's just we all do that. Not thoughts about you, like how awesome am I. Just thoughts about like what am I gonna have for dinner? Like, how am I gonna what are we gonna do tomorrow? Am I busy tomorrow? You'll have self referencing thoughts if your brain doesn't have anything else to do. That's normal. But the GAD person or the overthinker will insist that no, no, no, it's just generally a good idea. I was gonna get a carpenter analogy. If you're a carpenter and you love carpentry and that's your professional identity, really cool. So you walk around with your hammer all the time, just ready to go, right? And if there's a nail, you hit it. And you're really good at that because that's what carpenters do. But people with GAD take that hammer and bang on everything, even though it's not useful at all. Like, no, no, no, I swing a hammer, that's what I do. But you just smashed that drinking glass. You just broke your keyboard. Yeah, I know, but this is what I do. Like, I'm a good carpenter. This confirms that I'm good at it being a carpenter. Yeah, I know, but not everything is a nail. So getting out of your own head in that situation, a challenging belief that, like, no, no, knowing, figuring out, predicting, analyzing, finding meaning, worrying actively, that's not a good plan. So now I have to experiment with doing something different.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Um and I I often, for some people, we struggle to conceptualize it. It could be like, you know, we use Craig the Critic, you know, that's one voice dictating something, maybe it's part of this. I can't get out of your head, my head. Craig the Critic's telling me it's something else to solve. But in general, you know, you could have another name, you know, like um Felicia the Fixer.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

I don't know why that's it.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Felicia the Fixer just comes out and like oh, it's me now. Craig the Critic's gone. The fixer's here. And you can name whatever you want. But that fixing voice, and it's up to you whether or not you want to sit and engage with it. You know, we all have that family member that likes to talk and bang on and bang on, and we can disengage sometimes because it's boring. Right. And you can do the same with the voices in your head.

SPEAKER_04 23:47

Yeah, I always use, you know, the guy in the bar. Whether you're hanging out in a pub, sorry, whether you're hanging out and like the guy next to you just he just wants to talk about last night's match and you're not interested at all. You'll still hear it, but you can choose not to answer, right? Or, you know, the annoying dude that's trying to get your phone number and you're not interested because you're ready, you have a relationship ready, or he's just not, you don't like this guy. You can turn your back a little bit. He'll keep na na na na na na you hear it, but okay, it is what it is. You know what's cool about that? If you use Felicia the fixer, then when you recover, you could say, bye Felicia.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

Oh yeah, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

I knew there was genius in that somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 24:25

Bye Felicia. Wait, I don't have that sound.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

Yeah, there we go. I want everyone to say, yeah, when you notice you're fixing and ruminating, particularly you, Shane. Yeah, uh say it out loud so there's no context to anyone around you. Just say, bye Felicia and then say nothing and never explain yourself.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Oh, that would be so great. Yeah, if anybody wants to send in a by Felicia, we'll we'll 100% play it. Just go to disorder.fn and let us know when you used by Felicia. That's really good. Because fixing is part of what we're trying to do, right? I'm trying to fix my state. I'm trying to fix that DPDR, I'm trying to fix that racing heart, I'm trying to fix that thought about harming my child. Speaking of which.

SPEAKER_06 25:07

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Danielle. You are allowed to use my name. I just wanted to share, and I did it anyway. Um, since the birth of my son, I've been having pretty bad um postpartum OCD, and some of the intrusive thoughts um unfortunately seem to revolve around giving him a bath. Um, I am a stay-at-home mom, so obviously that's a little tricky. He is 17 months old now and gets very dirty very often. Um, it was my go-to just to use baby wipes to sort of clean him up. But the other day when I was home alone with him, he unfortunately got into his sister's finger paint and was covered head to toe to the point where the baby wipes weren't gonna cut it. So I felt super anxious, but I filled up the tub and put him in and gave him a bath. Um, I had the thought a couple of times, but I just sort of floated and and let it be there. And he's actually in the bath right now. So I just want to thank you guys so much for everything that you do because it makes a very large difference to many, many people. Thanks.

SPEAKER_04 26:12

Oh my one of our all-time great did it anyways. I love that one. That's brilliant. Applause for Danielle and her son, her finger painting son. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Stifling is art, Danielle.

SPEAKER_04 26:26

Let the kid get in the paint, man.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

Oh, well done, Daniel. And intrusive thoughts, and they're telling you, and your threat response is like, no, but what if this, what if that? I don't know. I'm going, I don't know what that accent was. Yeah. Would you like to come to the pub to watch a film? Uh we do say bar as well, by the way.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

Oh, good. All right. Well, that makes me feel better.

SPEAKER_03 26:46

Um, no, well done, Daniel. And and to do it anyway, to acknowledge that voice, but no, that's an intrusive thought. I'm gonna do this anyway. And we can tell just even in your voice, and you're proud, and so you should be.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

Yeah, I think staying in like for somebody like Danielle in that situation, and thank you so much for sharing. This is such a common thing that a lot of women are afraid to talk about. So thank you. Staying in your head would be arguing with the thought. No, I'm not gonna do that. That's not true. I'm a good person, I'm a good mom, I love my son. I would never do that. Like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not required. So that seems like the right thing to do, but that's choosing to stay up here in your cranium. But like, no, no, no, no, no. That's I just have to acknowledge I care a lot about my kid. I would never want to do anything to hurt this person, but I'm having thoughts about that, and that disturbs me. Now, what do I do? Well, I let myself have the thought and I go and give them a bath. So, yeah, but it often it would seem like the right thing to do. The pull is like, get up there, get back up in your head and argue with this thought, man. Prove it wrong, which can't.

unknown 27:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:48

Let's get if anyone struggles with OCD and you've got to did it anyway, please send them in or get have some more OCD. Yeah. Did it anyways. Yeah. I have intrusive thoughts that make me feel like a bad person, but I proved it wrong.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

Yeah, 100%. Yep, without a doubt. So getting out of your own head, I mean we've we've rambled on it for about 30 minutes or so. I don't know how much more there is to say about it. It's just recognize that it's frustrating when you find that you get sucked up in your own head. Express that frustration any way you need to. Tell a friend, hit a pillow, journal about it, whatever. But it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Right, by Felicia, but it's like and remember it can be it can be a pop-up on the screen. Yep. It could be a movie playing when you what while you're working. Yeah. Getting angry that the movie's on or getting annoyed at the pop-up, you know, is not yeah, you can have have a natural reaction, like, oh, I'd rather not have that. Yeah, right. But it's what you're doing after that precedes that. Um, but yeah, I mean it's it's okay. Obviously, there's other things you can do to help distinguish things like meditation without judgment and and stuff like that, attention. To get yeah, but to do it, not to get rid of a feeling, to practice that attention flexibility.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

Yeah, that's a good point. We didn't really talk about that that much. Like we we often default to talking about like non-engagement responses, which are really important, but there are some contexts in which you might turn directly at that thought that keeps popping up in your head and look right at it and like really lean into it. That's a little different. It's gonna depend on the context, but that's also how to get out of your own head. Like, oh, really? Tell me more about this. Tell me more about how I'm about to have a psychotic break. Tell me more. I'm listening, like you know, in a way, you're almost challenging it, or that's a little bit more of like an ERP type of thing. But yeah, that's another way to get out of your own head over time. Sometimes we get go into your head to challenge it so that you can get out of your head. It's a little weird, right? But that happens.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

One of our early episodes as well, I don't think top 15, first 15 episodes, we talk about distraction. Yeah, is it is it good or bad? Uh, and we talk about attention in that episode as well. Um, I quite like distraction, especially particularly if you're in the midst of it. Because what distraction teaches you is the power and role of your attention on what you're doing. Yep. Uh and if it's a if you're someone who's really stuck in the head, distract yourself, become immersed in something, and then learn what that teaches you. Ah, my attention is is contributing a lot to how I feel. Now, I'm not saying just distract yourself the rest of your life, but also you can do a cool cognitive reframe from CBT, which is Am I distracting myself, you know, with connotations that I'm running away and I'm a coward? Or am I just choosing to focus on this instead?

SPEAKER_04 30:30

Yeah. How about am I am I experimenting with allowing myself to get distracted? Which is a much more gentler, like letting go way to distract. There's distraction in everything we do. If you're gonna move your attention somewhere, there is some element of distraction, so it's not automatically evil. Just am I actively trying to get away from this or am I just letting go and seeing what happens?

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Almost every psychologist I meet, they always say good things about distraction. Yeah. They say obviously don't distract yourself from you know pressing emotional issues and things like that. But if you know it's you're in the cycle of an anxiety disorder and it's something that you can utilize to get off that hamster wheel a little bit quicker, then you know, why not?

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Yeah, why not? Exactly right. You know, in a way, getting, you know, the episode getting out of your own head, your mind has a natural ability to get out of itself in a way, or to wander. Like, we're not meant, it would be a bad design for our brains to be laser focused all the time. Like, that's not it's in fact, it's hard to be laser focused all the time. There's an entire like cottage industry built around like learning how to focus and like just hone in, and you know, we need those four hours of deep work, says Cal Newport or whatever, whoever wrote the deep work thing. It's really hard to do that. We have to work hard to learn how to focus that way. But but when an anxious person stays in their own head because it feels like the right thing to do to hold that focus there. If you experiment with letting go of that focus, your mind will naturally wander off and look for other things because that's what keeps us alive in the end, even at the most base level. I mean, nobody, nobody holds, you know, we it's like ninja level anxiety. People have anxiety disorders have like ninja level focus that other people would pay to have. It's just on a non-productive thing.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

Yeah. Yeah. I remember once doing a an experiment with and you might want to try this. Like it was like a meditative experiment where actually all because people when you have anxiety, you have a tussle, a fear, fight, fear, fight, fear, fight, fear, fight. It was during COVID actually, and I just woke up in the morning and I just said, I am going to laser focus on how I feel, not problem solve it, I just just how scary this is, and I'm just gonna focus on it. And you know what how what the record was a focus up to 68 seconds until my brain went I wonder what we're doing later. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and don't get me wrong, I'm still anxious, but it was interesting just to prove your point, Drew. Like even laser focusing on how I felt, the brain got bored. So when people say, Oh, I'm stuck, this is me forever. Well, no, it's not, you know, and it was frightening, but you know that that's where we're at. Uh I've got a question for you, Drew. Yeah, bring it. Should you we be willing to answer it? I will do my very best. Um hey guys, uh, love the podcast. Thank you so much. It's helped a lot, no worries. Had a question about allowing feelings and emotions versus redirection. I'm learning attention training and redirection with a metacognitive therapist. But sometimes it does feel like I'm doing it to suppress or avoid feelings and thoughts. Where is the line between allowing thoughts and feelings and redirection of attention? Isn't that appropriate for today's episode?

SPEAKER_04 33:50

That is very appropriate. That's a great question, too. It's a really good question. Um, my answer to that is you don't know until you do more practice. And because over time, what winds up happening is your attention is laser. You think you have to laser focus your attention on these anxiety issues, things that disturb you or scare you. So then you get stuck there. So now it's that's like I'm trying to land in the middle of the runway, but I keep landing to the left. So now I'm learning I have to steer really hard to the right, like over-steer to hit the middle of the runway right now. But over time, I might wind up landing on the right side of the runway, in which case I will let go of the yoke and let naturally hit the middle of the runway. So I think one of the things that we do is you kind of practice being a little bit extreme to using the attention training and then the moving your focus like you're learning how to do. And does that mean sometimes you might accidentally, you know, start to feel sad and like, oh, I mean, redirect? Maybe. But like over time you'll build discernment so you can recognize that, like, oh, I'm really sad right now. This is not a thing I redirect from. I mean, I guess unless I really have to in the moment, but I'm gonna have to feel sad for the next hour or whatever it is. I don't know if that makes any sense, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:59

That's good. Well, we can always discuss it in future episodes as well. Good question, though. And uh yeah, well done for um taking on board uh stuff like metacognitive therapy and things. Yeah, but try not to apply that perfectionist mindset, but oh, am I doing it okay? Yeah, you know, just take take them as concepts.

SPEAKER_04 35:17

I would say one thing I would add to that is some people do wind up in a situation where they get a little bit confused and they start to because I've had people say things like, you know, oh, do you know, love the podcast, whatever, love your books, it's everything has worked so well for me. How do I float through like the loss of my grandmother? You don't. Like not everything is a floating and an acceptance and willful tolerance issue. Like you're gonna be really sad. There's grief, there's loss, that sort of stuff. You know, uh, how do I float through this? How do I no, not everything is this problem. So be careful. You will be tempted to like, oh, I can apply this to everything that's difficult. No, not really.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

I'd argue you can apply willful tolerance to everything that's difficult.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

Well, I think we have no choice in the end, but I I that's where you're that's a good clue that you sort of techniqueified it to a certain extent. Oh, if I willfully tolerate, then the bad feeling goes away.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 36:07

No, no, if I willfully tolerate the interpretation of threat goes away, but feelings are always going to be here. So be careful about that.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

So very good. Thanks for tuning in, guys. Um, if you want to find out about any announcements and stuff, you can sign up to the mailing list at disorder.fm. We do have a book out soon, so if you want to be the first to hear about that, then you can um go and check that out. It's for health anxiety, which is a very popular request on this uh on this uh podcast. Sure is. And yeah, um, thank you all for tuning in. Thank you for the lovely reviews, the sending stuff in, the emails, the questions, the voice notes. We really appreciate it. Um, we'll be here every Friday.

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Yeah, very good. We'll be back next week. If you're one of the 2,000 or so people who listens on YouTube, I hope you enjoyed the little banner that I put on counting down to your death. I thought of that while you were saying it. Anyway. It was practice. It was practice. Anyway, thanks for listening, guys. We'll be back in a couple of weeks. Uh no, we're back next week, not a couple of weeks. We're out of the way.