Existential Anxiety With Depersonalization/De-Realization (Episode 105)

SPEAKER_01 0:02

You're not gonna solve those really deep existential questions in the middle of Walmart while you're triggered with DPDR an OCD.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Then why are we even here? It just would devastate me. Why are we even here? What how did that happen? Love it now. Hated it then because DPDR was one of the symptoms that I just dogged me all the time. It was with me all the time. Feeling of depersonalization and derealization almost confirms that, yes, in fact, this horrible existential type dilemmas that I'm struggling with are really important.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

And you know it's an OCD anxiety disorder, worry when it's like, oh, what's the meaning of life? You must find that out. That isn't curiosity, that is answer the exam quest. Whereas when you're walking along and you're not triggering, you're doing it out of reflecting and wondering, you're doing it through curiosity. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 105 of the podcast. Today we're talking about DPDR, which is depersonalization and derealization, very, very difficult thing to experience, and existential thoughts and existential anxiety. We've not tied these two together, so it should be pretty good. Um, I'm Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in New York, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, a former sufferer of these very same problems for many years of my life on and off, a better now, a three-time author on the topic and psychoeducator, advocate, social media dude, and guy with an expensive microphone that you hear every Friday on disordered.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And I'm joined as always by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist and author and Instagram prancer arounder, based in Manchester in the UK. I specialize in anxiety, anxiety, disorders, previous sufferer. Um what if this is all a simulation? What is time? What is memory? What is all those things? And you know what? That's a really great, a really great time to think about all these things is when you're triggered and in an obsessive, compulsive cycle, feeling detached from yourself and your surroundings. If that applies to you, this episode is for you.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

You're right. What a terrible combination that is. Like depersonalization, derealization, where you can't tell if you're real or if the world is real or it feels like it's unreal. And I'm going to question the very nature of existence at the same time that I'm experiencing this thing that I hate and scares the hell out of me. Like it's like the perfect storm of anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, it's very it's uh synonymous with OCD or obsessive compulsive anxiety disorders are very obsessive compulsive anyway. But if you're struggling with existential thoughts and having a feeling of detachment, that's when we stop ruminating and trying to seek 100% certainty about questions that human beings for thousands of years haven't asked, and you're not gonna solve those really deep existential questions in the middle of Walmart while you're triggered with DPDR and OCD. We know what anxiety does, it wants you to make you feel urgent, like this is an urgent problem, and then we step in. Um, did you ever have the DPDR existential thoughts, Drew? Oh boy, yeah. Oh no, you yours was about death, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Oh, that's good. Yeah, mine was about death for sure. And um it was exist, it was the whole like why are we even here then? Like I got really fixated for a very long time, not just on the idea of death and like ceasing to exist, but then why are we even here? It it just would devastate me. Like, I don't understand what's the point. Why are we even here then?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

It was not so it wasn't whoa, why are we even here? Like, this is cool. No, it was why are we even here?

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Right, why are we even here? Yeah, if I gotta go out at some point and everybody I love is gonna disappear, then why are we even here? Oh, that would that really man. That would I even saying it, man. In fact, that would crush me for a week at a time. Does it even does it evoke stuff now? Yeah, wonder like how the hell are we here? I love that topic now. Why are we even here? What the heck? How did that happen? Love it now, hated it then because DPDR was one of the symptoms that I that just dogged me all the time. It was with me all the time, so it was very difficult. Not a good combo at all. What about you? What was your experience with this?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Yeah, I had it. Um, I know we've mentioned it on a very old episode, uh, Existential Thoughts, but very a very long time ago. We thought I'd bring it along because we get a lot of um questions from followers or people who tune into the podcast, you know, what about existential thoughts with DPDR? Uh, and what we often say in this in this podcast is it's not special, but wow, it is a it is a it is a big one. Like it's like I I've had it, and it's like, whoa, you feel like you've just peered behind the curtain and seen the source code for something, but it's a lie. You know, it's like you're just like, oh yeah, oh look, there's there's the matrix numbers and letters coming down. Yeah, I feel like I'm seeing it is an illusion, it's like deja vu. It's not you're not actually seeing it. But yeah, when you're having all these wondrous existential thoughts, but through the lens of threat, it can feel quite frightening. But know that when the threat response ends and anxiety ends, that urgency also ends, and then it becomes a campfire question.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

You know, I I think what's so interesting is in this situation, if we look at the whole like, well, one of the problems why people get stuck in that anxiety disorder thing is the big jolt of emotion, which a lot of times is just fear, that comes along with a thought or a sensation, seems to confirm to them that the thought is in fact dangerous or urgent, as is the sensation. So the emotion makes you fools you into thinking, like, this is clearly very important because I'm so upset right now. Yeah. What's really insidious about this particular combo is if you're struggling with existential thoughts and you've got that sort of existential fixation right now, the feeling of depersonalization and derealization almost confirms that, yes, in fact, this horrible existential type dilemmas that I'm struggling with are really important. And yet, clearly I'm on to like an unsolvable problem that will destroy us all. Like the feeling so meshes with that. It's like, see, I how am I supposed to possibly be okay with not knowing this? Look how strongly it makes me feel.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

And I and I feel like this sensation is confirming that I don't actually know if I'm real or if reality is correct or what's particularly bad for someone who's likes control and is as a fixer and they've gone there all the way through life solving problems, really good at it as well. Yep, really intelligent, and then bam, your stress jug fills up, and you just have that thought that we all have, everyone has existential thoughts, yeah, but then bam, you you feel DPDR, which for anyone who doesn't know is when you feel dissociated, detached, your hands look weird, everything seems warped, or both up close, far away. You feel small. I had it the other day, actually. I felt really small, like I felt really close to the ground, and I'm a tall guy, I'm six foot two, yeah, and it felt like I was like a foot tall, just walking, and I was like, oh wow, that's weird. Just like like such a weird feeling, you know. Uh, and it's fine, you know. Years ago, that would have triggered me, yeah, you know, and then years ago, if I was back ruminating, I would have spent all day going, well, what was that? What what even is perception? What is you know, and I'd have gone down a hole that didn't need to do it. Um, whereas actually it's uh oh, what was the name of that lobe that we just spoke about with DPDR? Parietal lobe tempor temporal parietal lobe, which is responsible for your spatial awareness and and and your position in relation to other things, that that temporarily gets a bit rusty when you're stressed and anxious. And it was obviously firing off when I was walking down the street feeling a foot tall.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, I mean it's such a common thing, like you're in this threat response and detection state where normally you would have an actual thing to respond to. So all the things it does to your body and mind, you don't notice because they're doing their job. You're running, you're fighting, you're coping, you're dealing, you're like interacting with the world. And like the other stuff, like figuring out whether or not we're in a simulation, is not important when you're dealing with an actual threat. So the ability to think about those things just sort of fall by the wayside. But when there's no threat, and then you're looking for one, all of those physiological and cognitive responses to fear have nowhere to go. And then we start to fixate on them, on them themselves. So, like, uh, this is just so strange. What's going on? Like, if there was a real threat and you got depersonalized a bit, you would not probably be even thinking about that state at all, nor would you be pondering the nature of existence, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

So you can you can see why though I remember like and it's very common in clients, like you you remember what it's like having derealization, Drew. It's like you sat in a room and and it's horrible and everything's warped and weird. And let's say it's happening at night, and it's fine, I can have it, and it doesn't really bother me, but like you you have it in the midst of it all when I'm sensitized and didn't understand what was going on. The idea of walking outside and looking at the night sky and the cosmos whilst in that warped state, it would have terrified me because I'm seeing it through the lens of threat, not the lens of wonder and curiosity, which is something that came up was a word that came up with Dave Carbonell in the flight anxiety episode. Yeah, your threat response saps your curiosity, but try and hold on to it even when you feel uncertain. Uh oh, I like that. Yeah, can we pretend I just I was can I can you pretend I just walked out of a tree and I've got a massive white beard?

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Yeah, that was very wise. That was very good.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

No, it is true, isn't it? When you're anxious, your curiosity is dead, but it's not, it's just quiet.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Yeah, yeah, reconnecting to that. That's part of that mindful acceptance thing. Like, I can I look curiously at what's going on right now as opposed to running from it or trying to decipher it right away.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

So, yeah, and you know it's an OCD anxiety disorder worry when it's like, Oh, what's the meaning of life? You must find that out. That isn't curiosity, that is answer the exam question. Whereas when you're walking along and you're not triggered and you're looking at trees, the sun, the orbits of the planets, what is God, what is this, having all these mad questions. But you're doing it uh reflecting and wondering, you're doing it through curiosity. That's the difference, and that's the difference for me. I can have those thoughts and enjoy them now, but I used to be frightened of them because it was those thoughts were hijacked by my threat response. Yeah. Thanks for being part of that realization, Drew, and everyone listening at all.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

You're very well glad to participate. Very good. I I think uh you mentioned looking up at the sky, right? When you're in that state, that is a very common trigger or an avoidance for people who are dealing with a combination of DPDR and existential dread or existential anxiety, existential thoughts. If I look up at the sky, if it's at night, I see the vastness of dark, of blackness. If it's the day, sometimes that can happen when it's not an overcast day. Like the a day that most people would be like, this is awesome. The sky is so blue, there isn't a cloud to be seen. For a person struggling with existential anxiety and DPDR, that's often the worst day because it feels like the sky is so overwhelming. Yeah. Oh my goodness, what is this? This is like an infinite. I'm looking into infinity right now. I actually have people in session, client sessions that will say things like that, or they walk around, you know, looking down at the ground, or they always have to have the sun visor down in their car so they can't see up into the sky. Like these are really common triggers when you have patients.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

I've done a lot of them actually over the years. Yeah, I'm afraid of the sky uh vista, any vista. So, like, you know, the the the the layman, the the the the neurotypical, the whatever, the typical person, uh heteronormative person, let's call them, um, looks at a vista and they're like, Wow, take it in, this vastness is greatness, and they're really enjoying it full of wonder. But yeah, to the person who's struggling with DPDR and existential thoughts, they see that and they're like, whoa, that's overwhelm. That's too much to compute. And if that is you, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

It's funny because here in the US, which is a massive chunk of land we got here, when you go, you know, you get west of the Mississippi River before you hit the Rocky Mountains or the Sierra Nevada Mountains, you got it is just big, giant, flat, endless expanse of flat land and a huge sky. And I I personally know people that have really struggled traveling through the middle of the United States because after a while, even people that don't have anxiety issues can sometimes be unnerved by it. I I that would probably unnerve me after a while, I think. And it's not like, oh, we're you know, uh there's another town or we're out of this in an hour or two, like in a lot of European countries, you're not that big. Here it's like we have three and a half days to drive through this. So, like, I'm never gonna get out of this. Maybe not. Well, do you not have like stops and things and I mean, yeah, but you know, hotels and stuff like that? Yeah, so you can get inside and have a ceiling over you, yes, but like the vastness of the landscape up the middle part of the US is really unnerving for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

And if you got that combination, I wouldn't be worried about that. I'd just be worried about like if my car breaks down here, what do I do?

SPEAKER_02 14:06

That was that was my biggest fear when I was at my worst. Like, what if I the thought of dry C was this isn't a DPDR existential thing for me? It was a panic disorder, agoraphobia. This kill is gonna kill me thing. I could not even imagine driving be out through Nebraska or Iowa somewhere, just flat with nothing for two hours. Get some mountains, guys. God, oh we got them, just really far between them. We got them on the east, we got them in the west, big ones in the west, but like just really far in the middle.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

Great towns and cities in the UK where it's just like like endlessly bumpy and hilly. Bath, where I went to uni, is what you there is not a flat road in Bath. Everything is either an 89-degree incline. Uh everybody in bath is in very good shape, just from what everyone in bath has enormous quads and thighs and calves the size of trees, as opposed to particulars, but with no muscular top. So this is just imagine people with giant muscly legs, yeah, and and then tiny thin bodies at the top. If you live in bath, I it it it does it does play into the DPDR existential theme. It does, isn't it? I'm sorry for anyone in Somerset.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

One of the things that's so hard to about the existential theme, and in when you combine it, especially with the DPDR experience, is people will often say it like death, and I guess they're sort of related, but I just simply do not understand how you expect me to accept this problem. Like, this is the nature of reality and existence. Like, how can I possibly get okay with the fact that I'm not even sure why I exist?

SPEAKER_01 15:53

Well, you accept it's not a problem. You don't accept the problem, you accept it's not a problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:59

That's exactly right. So it that but that only comes after you're better, I think. In that situation, it's the old you're right, because at the time it feels like this is an unacceptable. What do you mean unacceptable? And I when you're stuck in the loop, it becomes well, this disturbs me so much that disturbance is unacceptable to me. That's what's unacceptable. Yeah, but if you can work through that, then you're not disturbed anymore. And so the idea that I'm never truly I'm I think I'm never gonna know the nature of reality is no longer so disturbing. And while I would love to know that I would really like to know, I mean, don't like that I probably won't ever know. Okay, I'm not disturbed by not knowing, so that's therefore a very easily acceptable problem to me. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Yeah, no, I like that. Yeah, it's the it's that disturbance, and uh anyone with I mean, there is a subtype of OCD, um, existential OCD. So people who really, really struggle with it, uh, and the compulsions are like avoidance every day, or then they and they struggle with it. Uh, there is it's that disturbance, it's not the solving that's trying to, it's like with all anxiety disorders, particularly OCD, you fall for the illusion that the only way out of this is to solve it, yeah. Or to know. And no, we just leave it alone.

SPEAKER_02 17:12

Because what you're trying to the solving or knowing is meant to alleviate your discomfort. It's it's so it's really important, I think, to stay on top of that, especially with DPDR and existential dread or existential anxiety. Like, you're not trying to solve an unsolvable problem, you're just trying to not feel so dreadful about it. So, like, you think that if you could solve the if you can answer the question, like why am I here or what happens when I die? Well, then your discomfort will go away. That's really what you're looking for. So, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

What if there's good luck with that?

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Well, right. So, like, but you can't, that's not the way for to address the discomfort. That's the wrong direction. Like, so really, what if there's another way to take away the discomfort? And people say all the time, but how am I supposed to be okay with these questions? Well, when they don't bother you and trigger you anymore, you're totally fine with the questions. So, what if it's not the question that you should be trying to work on? What if it's the discomfort? Is there another at least consider is there another way to address this discomfort? Well, you're listening to disorders, so that's you know, you you're on one, you're sort of leaning toward that other way right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah, and and we've had them now. Don't get me wrong, that's the thing, it's the not it's not disallowing feelings. Even now, I'll have an existential thought now and then, and it frightens me because that's a human thing, it frightened everyone, it's that it's frightened philosophers for years, but I don't take it onto the hamster wheel of cyclical anxiety disorder compulsive behaviors, yeah, because that is more frightening, you know, because I know it's just pointless. If I give it all my attention, I give it all these my energy, my resources, I fall for the illusion that I am making my way towards an answer. You're not, you know, you're just on a treadmill, you're running nowhere, you're just speeding up the treadmill and getting more tired, but you're actually still walking running on the spot. Do you have any particular like existential thoughts that that still might bother you from time to time? Um, yeah, my latest one was uh it doesn't bother me now, but like um actually no, the one I had in the middle of OCD anxiety story was um I'd laugh at something or I would find something joyful, and then the thought was where's the exact moment or singularity of that moment where you enjoyed that? Like, what made that a good event? Talking about a buzz. And I was like, I was like, you busted anxiety, uh, and and I went around rumination and stuff like that. Uh and then I and then at the end, I was like, hold on, I'm just gonna leave this alone. And then when I came out of it, you know, my rational brain was like, it was an amalgamation of experiences, and that's fine, there's the answer. You know, but I was looking for that singularity, which is you know, anxiety wants you to do that, wants to pull you towards a singularity, whether it's health anxiety, whether it's a singularity of how to get better, whether it's a singularity of the answer of existence. It wants you to simplify and find a singularity, and naturally I was like, no, I'm not, I'm not getting drawn into that.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah, pretty cool. I had a couple of weeks ago, it's interesting. I'll I guess share a little experience. It maybe looks it's it's a look at what the combination of DPDR and existential thoughts looks like after you're on the other side of recovery. So, like, I'm a total nerd. So, like, if I'm gonna maybe fire up YouTube, I'm gonna watch stuff like PBS Space Time. I don't know, I dig that stuff, right? So Carl Sagan, yeah. Yeah, I'll go back and definitely I'll go back and reread Carl Sagan or watch old Carl Sagan videos. I love that stuff, but it is going to speak to the nature of existence in some way, shape, or form. That's true. And it's been, you know, I mean, I got a lot, I always have a lot going on. And DPDR is a stress response for me. It is one of the things I will feel when I know that I'm pushing too hard. And I was I was kind of in it. It was a Thursday night and it was a long week and it wasn't over yet. And I was kind of feeling it, and I was a little bit depersonalized. And and I'm like, well, I'm still gonna just chill out before I go to sleep and I'm gonna watch some videos. And you know, basically the trigger there was how far away does a supernova have to be to be safe? But like, is it this is great, this is awesome, right? But like it came up for me the existence of the trigger, yes, because the existential lying in bed with thinking about supernova sleep supernova is like millions of life comes out of like, okay, Betelgeuse will be supernova at some point in the next hundred thousand years, maybe tomorrow, who knows? And it's it's safe, it won't hurt us, it's fine. But it what came up for me was the combination of like I'm feeling that depersonalization, that stress response. I'm feeling it. It's coming in and out for the last couple hours. I'm really tired. And then I think the universe is absolutely incredible. Different to the fact that I am here. It simply does not care. When a star run a big enough, much like when you walk into a party. That's exactly right. It's nothing different than Saturday with my neighborhood friends. There's no doubt about that. But like when a star big enough nearer us runs out of its fuel, we're done. And that's all that matters is that the star was big enough and it had a limited amount of fuel. Nobody cares. The universe does not care. That's an existential thought combined with that stress response of DPDR. And like, yeah, it upset me, but not that would have been a week of oh just being crushed. Now it was just, well, that really sucks. And that was it. So for what it's worth, you know, maybe that helps somebody. That's what that combination looks like. I love that. That if you're gonna ruminate, at least make it cool. Oh bigger, cool. Yeah, without a doubt. Like ruminated some really big stuff. So uh yeah, that's but it was this sucks, but okay. And then I fell asleep, and I remember when the went away, like it went away at some point and before I fell asleep, and I don't know when it was.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

But it's interesting because it because it taps into like I have those thoughts. I'm just like, that's that's cool. Yeah, you know, I I could actually watch our annihilation play out in my head and it won't trigger threat response. And I'm like, yo, because it just seems sci-fi-y and cool. Totally. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

It's gonna happen tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

It could happen tomorrow, but whatever. Yeah, exactly. Who knows? At least we don't have to see any more reels about ice packs as a positive to supernovas.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

Are you trying to? Is that what we're doing right now? Oh my goodness. What's so what's the bottom line here before we get to some I don't, you know, by the way, I'm gonna stop using the word community. There's a backlash against community these days, and I'm starting to understand it. So, like, wins from real people. How's that? So actual actual anxious.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Why are we losing the word community?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Well, it's got that connotation of like, oh, look, we're all a community. It encourages that parasocial thing, like, oh, it's you know, it's Drew and Josh, those are my guys. Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

All right, yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

So yeah, anyway. Um let's hear from our acolytes.

unknown 24:07

Acolytes.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Oh, I'm going forget it. I'll go back to community. I ain't going out.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Thanks. No, I get it. I hear you. Let's hear from real people.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Let's hear some real people. Should we play a did it anyway? We got one. Yeah, let's do it. All right, let's do it. Here we go. Let's see if I got it right.

unknown 24:23

I did.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Hey, Drew and Josh. Um, I actually had a I did it anyway that I wanted to share. Um, so I struggle with health anxiety and some flight anxiety, and I recently had COVID at the end of January, and had a lot of health anxiety kind of start back up with that. And I was supposed to go on an international trip um in February, kind of within a few weeks of you know, getting COVID, and I was really just anxious about the trip, anxious about going, anxious about flying, the whole thing, and um I ended up going on the trip. Um, it was really, really uncomfortable. I was having high heart rates, palpitations, um, really bumpy flights. Um, I wear an Apple Watch, I was getting um high heart rate notifications on my Apple Watch because we were at high altitude and it was just very, very uncomfortable the whole trip. But I did it, I got through it and ended up having a really good time on the trip. And you know, it was probably one of the best experiences trip-wise that I ever had. And then when I came home, my heart rate was all fine, I survived it, and all that good stuff. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

That was cool. Well done. Love it. Um, it was really uncomfortable, but I did it.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah, also you turn off those notifications on your watch, they're telling you your heart's just doing its thing. Yeah. You know, you're climbing up mountains or whatever in high altitude, like yeah, you you don't need a watch to tell your heart's gonna be about beating out fast.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, that was a multi-prong did it anyway. Like, I have health health fears, and I don't like flying, yeah, all things at one time.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

You know what's cool about that? Well, well done. I'm glad and it turned out to be one of the best trips that that she's had. Um so that's good. And you use the compassion there, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

The anticipation of like this is gonna take me down was worse probably than the flight, although the flight I'm sure was quite uncomfortable. This person acknowledged that, which is important. You know, if we tie it back to today, like how does this parallel with today's common death combination of you know existential thoughts and DPDR? Well, I'm on a plane, says this person. She didn't she didn't say her name, so I won't say it. Um, I'm on a plane, I'm afraid here. This makes me nervous. You know, I I have these fears that I'm bringing with me on this trip. So, my what's happening now? Well, my heart is racing. Well, I'm feeling maybe a little nauseous or dizzy, or my legs are shaking, or I'm feeling really uncertain, and I'm experiencing fear right now. That's actually what's happening. That's what that's what's going on. I'm in a plane and I'm afraid. And like, okay. And but I guess I'm gonna have to just stay on this plane until it lands and then go on on my trip. Well, what's happening? I'm experiencing this uncomfortable sensation right now. I'm I'm questioning reality, right? I'm having thoughts about questioning reality right now. I'm having physical sensations. I'm afraid of these sensations, so I'm experiencing fear. The uncertainty makes me afraid. That's actually what's going on. So if you've got that combination of DPDR and you know existential thoughts happening at the same time, being curious about the experience would be like, well, what actually is happening right now? Not like what does it mean? Like I'm trying to solve the you know the mysteries of the universe. No, I'm having thoughts about really big questions that disturb and I'm noticing the urgency.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Bam. Just to stir, and I ain't gonna engage with them.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

Yeah, it's it that's really hard to do. And I know that people will say, yeah, but that combination is just so powerful. It is a hundred percent powerful, but you know, by way of a little bit of constructive advice, it would be that can I stop and just start to objectively and curiously describe my current experience, what is happening right now, not not the projection of what it means about my past or my future or the nature of reality. What is my experiencing right this minute? I'm afraid and uncomfortable, and my brain is making thoughts that I don't know how to respond to at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Okay. And you're describing the the mechanism there as well, which is one of the mechanisms that you know perpetuates pretty much every anxiety disorder. Um, can we enter Craig the Critic stage left?

SPEAKER_02 28:46

We 100% can enter Craig the Critic. It's been so long since we heard from him that I tried to look what button it is. It's Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

So Craig the Critic. Oh, yeah, Billy Mays. Oh, I love it. I always smile. I sent Drew a meme the other day where someone left uh a bottle of OxyClean on the grave of Billy Mays, and uh it was his son posted that, right? And his son posted as I was his son went to visit his father's grave, and someone's left a bottle of oxyclean on, uh and it was very sweet. Um yeah, um, enter Craig the Critic stage left. I've got anxiety, I've got existential thoughts, and then what happens when you mesh that with depression, and you're someone with a harsh inner critic?

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, oh that's a really I think we need to talk a lot about that because that's I think you're probably right because that depression that that thread that runs through depression of what's the point? It's hopeless. There's no point anyway. This this is hopeless. That's the I there's nothing I could do about this. No good is ever going to come of this. I can't change the situation, I'm worthless. Like, and what's the point of anything which can be part of that existential?

SPEAKER_01 29:57

Yeah, you see, because yeah, there's two types of nihilists. You've got the like the depressed nihilist, yep, and then you've got the hipster, I drink schooners of pale ale nihilists. Like, I do I don't believe in anything, you know, even though I spent $70 on this new hat to show everyone that I don't care about anything. But then you've got the nihilist that's actually depression, that who's depressed, like I feel like everything's so overwhelming and my place here is pointless and stuff. Be aware, that's Craig the critic. That's not necessarily true. You know, and if you're someone who's struggled with OCD, existential thoughts, and that depression's creeped in, know that that's okay. You know, as an you're not that's a common experience, and you can change that perspective of that. I just thought about that then, yeah. Particularly if you've you know you've been struggling a lot and you're stressed and you're down on yourself, yeah. And those with strong inner critics and can relate to today's episode. Just know that, yeah, you can get existential and get nihilistic and just try and just look out for Craig the critic, trying to hijack the narrative though.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

One of my old Facebook group admins, she's not listening because she doesn't have to, and I'm so happy for her for that. But we used to joke about that all the time. She was coming out of the other side of it, and and it was the whole like I listen, I know y'all are trying to solve this really important problem, but what's the point of anything? That was our running joke. What's but what's the point of anything? Why should we try to solve this problem? That can be a real a real problem when what's the point of anything starts to weave itself into that depression narrative.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

Yeah, whereas actually I love that. I love that narrative. What's the point in anything? Like, because I'm an existentialist. I like the uh Satra and Kierkegaard and Camus. I think I'm like a modern-day Camus if he came off wish, you know, and um the teamover. Less attractive cannot make looking a cigar look great. I do have a Camus coat though. Um you know, uh, all the existentialists. I love that because it helped makes sense to me. Like you existentialism is life, is your own narrative that you apply for apply to it, and you get to create your own narrative. You know, you don't have to conform to a pre-written narrative, and you can just do what you want. Or and the arrow and existentialism is or you could just subscribe to a narrative that is still existentialist, you can do whatever you want. If you want to craft your life around the predictable plot and subplots around a Hallmark Christmas movie, you go for it. If it works for you. But then if everyone in the room's doing it, and you feel like that doesn't really sit well with me, it doesn't serve me, that's also okay. Just don't get on the hamster wheel of ruminating and overthinking and obsessing about urgency around existential questions.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

I'm just like super impressed by this discussion of like depressive nihilism versus hedonistic nihilism. Like, this is not a thing I expected to consider today, but now I am.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

So also just stop compulsing, guys.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

You know, like you never have to listen to another episode of Disordered again. There's your answer right there. Stop, just stop compulsing, just stop.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

What was the tree sage thing I said before? I like that, and I forgot about it. I often do this, I'll say I come out with nonsense all the time, and then I just come out with something that's good, and I want to write it down for a book or something.

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Well, as it turns out, if you go to disorder.fm slash 105, you'll be able to hear yourself say it.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

So oh, amazing!

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Great. It was anxiety takes away, fear will take away your curiosity.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Trying to tell you what that's that's an exposure. Sitting with spatial audio headphones, listening to my own voice talk about my own fears being blasted into my ears about existential. That'll be fun.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Oh, congratulations. That's like an imaginal exposure that we often we, you know, it's really hard when you hear yourself say it. People sometimes get super triggered by their own voice saying their fears into their ear. So sure.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Friends often joke, like, are you listening to your own podcast? I'm like, no, uh, but this time I will, but no, yeah, but and before we can obviously I want I got a question and I did it anyway to read up, but yeah, sure. Again, that that DPDR existential stuff, hearing your own voice can be triggering for people. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I had a problem with it, without a doubt. So it's funny because like the the dude who didn't want to hear his own voice because it would trigger my DPDR and my questioning of who I even was, uh, winds up taking that experience and talking into microphones with headphones on, hearing myself all the freaking time, like for 10 years after that was over. Oh, the irony, like amazing. Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry to hear myself at this point.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

I did it, I've done some interceptive exposures with clients where we they stare into the mirror and talk themselves in the mirror, yeah, and it gets pretty intense, and then it gets fun. When they start laughing, is when you know yes, that's so great. It's that moment just looks stupid, you know. It feels really horrible disconnecting stuff, and then when this you see it every time where they the absurdity of the whole situation just hits them because their threat responses come down, they're like, Yeah, actually, that's funny. I'm like, that's a really good exposure. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

It's kind of how exposure works. Like, that's and we joke all the time about like, well, Tuesday is vomit day in Drew's practice because I have a bunch of emetophobic clients. But that's a great moment in emetophobia exposure as well, when you're sitting there in a session with your therapist and you're literally just saying words back and forth to each other, like you're in third grade and just discovered the word like vomit, like peevits and butt. At first, they're really like upset by it, but then after a few times through it, it starts to be like, this is just so absurd. And suddenly the words don't aren't as triggering anymore. And then they start to giggle a little bit, and it's like that's what we're looking for right there. So the same thing would hold true with like this horrible feeling of like I'm looking in the mirror and I'm not sure who I am. But after a while, it's like, wait a minute, this sensation is actually not going anywhere, it's just either staying there and nothing bad is happening, or it's I don't know, starting to fade because I'm I'm I'm noticing the funniness of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Don't done it with clients, like like you were explaining before the the the vast expanses or the the vest like walk walk to the top of a hill on a sunny day and just look out, yeah, and we take a chat, and the exposure would just be we sit here and we stare at it until we laugh. Yeah, and we do in it and it's there, and then it hits you the adrenaline and all, and then just like one client long time ago was like, We've just been sat staring at fields with cows in for 30 minutes, and now I feel better.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

It's ridiculous, isn't it? But laying up Joansky just go outside and lay on that bench over there and look up, look up for 15 minutes. Yeah, so very good.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Uh I'll go. Would you want a question or did it anyway?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

Let's do the did it anyway and then we'll do the question. How's that?

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Cool. Uh they did not give permission to share their name. Um, I just want wanted to share my did it anyway with you both. It isn't very exciting, but sitting down to a meal in a restaurant is one of my biggest triggers. The thought of feeling trapped in that situation with family or work colleagues is terrifying. I've had the big panic attack that triggered the return of my anxiety issues while sitting down to a meal in a restaurant before. I will forever be sad thinking of the Halloumi burger I couldn't eat due to intense panic. It will forever be the Halloumi burger that got away. You know, I feel you on that. Yeah. Anyway, tonight I sat down to a meal with a work colleague I don't know very well. I had worried about it all day, and when the moment arrived and I sat down to look at the menu, I could feel the anxiety building, dizziness, heart pounding, struggling to concentrate on the menu and what my colleague was saying. The words I can't do this came into my mind, along with a strong urge to leave. But I managed to talk myself down in my mind. I didn't run away or leave my seat at all. In fact, I managed to hold a conversation despite the chaos unfolding in my mind. I managed to eat my meal and even enjoyed myself. I surprised myself tonight and feel hopeful for the first time in a long time. So thank you both. That was really great. Oh, thank you. You got the credit there. Brilliant. You went toe-to-toe and called the bluff of anxiety. And look, and what I loved is that you you ended up eating your meal and actually having a nice time. All that anticipatory anxiety lied to you.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

And you went the whole way. Well done. I can't do this, turns out to be untrue. Who saw that coming? And my favorite part of the story was I surprised myself today. That's really great. I love that's such a great thing to, yeah. What what did you learn about, you know, in those debriefing after an exposure? It's like, well, what did you learn about the nature of your thoughts, your anxiety? What did you learn about you? What surprised you about that? Is a question I'll always ask. It's always great because, like, wow, I didn't think I could do that, but as it turns out, I can love it.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Here's a fun fact Drew has never eaten halloumi.

SPEAKER_02 39:06

I have, I have since, because we're talking about Halloumi before we hit the record button. I have had Haloumi once or twice. It was just a long journey to get there after it was highly suggested to me. Like, and it's it's all right, it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

If done right, yeah, it's very nice. Uh Halloumi and Red Pepper. Sorry, we've got a limited time this episode. Um, it reminds me of that weird episode we did when I was banging on about that restaurant and that food. I can't remember. I'm not gonna. Oh, the couple that was the people that were eating next to you, they were at it.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

There was some argument about what was on the table or whatever. But here's the real question, though. What if the swimming pool is full of halloumi instead of custard? That's the big uh oh, what changes then? That's a whole different there's a lot of calculation.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

One block of halloomie, it's instant death. But if you finally chop the halloumi, I think it might save you.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

Did you hear what happened to Josh? It was tragic. He jumped into a giant block of halloumi.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Yeah, no, because it depends, because you you could fill a whole you could fill a whole pool with halloumi and it would harden. Um like the custard analogy. And if you've not heard that episode, this is gonna sound stupid. It's gonna sound stupid anyway. Um, you'll you'll instantly jump from a burning building and hit the halloumi hard. But I imagine if you cut the halloomie up into small squares and bits, you would have enough give to maybe survive that.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Then it would be like the the pit in the gymnastics studio, like when you tumble into the foam pit full of little foam blocks and you're okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think anyway, uh, there's a question before we finish. Um, hi guys, hope you are all well. I love the show, and I'm extremely grateful for it and you both. I found the podcast about two months ago, and it's been so helpful. For more than a decade, I've been looking for anxiety help from experts who have also experienced the distress it can cause. Everything I learned before was regulation, avoidance, mantras, positive thinking, etc., but with no long-term success ever. I even thought I hated myself, but it turns out I just hated Craig the critic. How cool is that! I love that. Great, love that. I have many questions, but I wanted just to start with this one. Drew, I love your personal stories about your anxiety struggles at its peak or at your low. These stories are more helpful than you know and remind us that we are not alone. Thank you for sharing them and being so open and honest. You've mentioned the heavy lifting days of your recovery. What did those heavy lifting days look like? What was a day in the life of Drew during that time? Thanks, guys. Much love.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Oh, that's a really good question. That would be a long answer, but I'll give you a quick one, I guess. The heavy lifting days for me were the days that it would start when I would open my eyes and I'd have that like two nanoseconds of like neutrality, and then it would, oh shit. You know, like there it is. It would all come rushing back. I remembered what was going on. I remember that I'm an anxious person and I would feel terrible. So the heavy lifting started from like, I gotta get myself out of this bed, even though I I just want to lay here and think about how I feel and how I'm gonna feel. So that it was just kind of like it was really just sort of pushing my knowing that I didn't want to do things, but I had to just put one foot in front of the other, you know, hoping that it would be better once I did them. So I think like I could talk about that for probably hours. I mean, I wrote a whole book about it, but in the end, that was the heavy lifting was like, I don't want to do this, I don't want to go in the car and drive, I don't want to panic when I go a mile from the house, but I I'm gonna have to do it anyway and hope that on the back side there's gonna be some benefit there. Trust that there will be at some point. That was hard. That was that was yeah, that was heavy lifting, man. That was a lot of heavy lifting in those days. Intentionally feeling bad. It's not anything that you did the same, right?

SPEAKER_01 42:53

So yeah, yeah, I like I like the term heavy lifting days. I liked it. Yeah, absolutely. That was a heavy lifting. Thank you for the question, and thank you for the dinner anyway. Question sender inn is and stuff like that. Uh, where can people find us, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Um, anywhere on the internet, the interwebs, you know, Josh's anxiety Josh, and I'm the anxious truth. If you just Google our names, you'll find us anywhere. What else can we tell them? You want to participate in an episode of Disordered by sending in a did it anyway or a question? Just go to disorder.fm. And while you're there, you can leave us a voicemail or an email. We try to read them and listen to all of them, even though we can't put them all in the air. And while you're there, you can subscribe to our mailing list so that you know when we do disordered roundtables. We didn't do any in March because we've been kind of busy, but we'll pick them up again next month.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

I've got a book deadline, um, guys, so apologies. And I can't wait to fly some more with shameless plugging. And uh welcome to the shameless plug episode of Disorder. Yeah, I know. Thanks, guys, tuning in and uh look after yourself.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Yeah, we'll see you next week.