Anxiety Symptoms: Dizziness & Lightheadedness (Episode 135)

SPEAKER_05 0:01

I think dizziness, lightheadedness, like yeah, it's a really common, common, common occurrence. We even have common language that we all understand. Oh, I heard the news and the room started spinning. Like we all we all understand that. That's a common experience.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

What if I fall down? Some of them are more catastrophic. Like, what if I collapse? What if I faint?

SPEAKER_05 0:18

My brain also interpreted it as something wrong with my brain. If I'm feeling a little bit lightheaded or dizzy, oh, that could mean that something really bad is happening to me medically right now.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

If it's attuned to health, if it's attuned to bodily and somatic sensations, it feels 10 times worse. I possibly couldn't drive and feel dizzy because it's dangerous. There is such a thing as like keeping an eye on symptoms, and then there's the disordered way of keeping an eye on symptoms, which is all the time.

SPEAKER_05 0:44

Legitimately, like I was in the blue angels. Like now I can laugh about it, but at the time it felt like a really good idea to do that. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 135 of the podcast. Today we are talking about anxiety symptoms in the form of dizziness and lightheadedness, which are two of the big five, I think. Uh I am Drew Linsolata, one half of Disordered. I am a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, located in the state of New York, on Long Island, to be specific, former sufferer of the very problems we talk about here on Disordered, but much better now for many years. Uh three-time author on the topic, psychoeducator, advocate, social media dude.

SPEAKER_04 1:23

And as always, I am joined from across the pond by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer of many anxiety disorders. Um, can you hear that ambulance in the background? Or police or something like that?

SPEAKER_05 1:45

It's the mean streets of Manchester.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Yeah, yeah. I think they're coming after us because we were because of our bold music choices. I think you had to uh and yeah, and dizziness is one of uh the something that I used to struggle with. So uh yeah, welcome back and um thanks for tuning in again.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

You know, I think dizziness, lightheadedness, like we can lump it all into one thing. It was a big symptom for me. I know it was for you. I still can feel it. There are certain things that I know are stress responses for me, that's one of them. So, you know, yeah, it's a really common, common, common occurrence. Whether it's you're an anxious person in the form of a disordered anxiety disorder or chronic forms of anxiety, but anybody that gets some big news or is angry or gets really upset or whatever might experience that. We even have common language that we all understand. You know, the room was spinning. Oh, I heard the news and the room started spinning. Like we all we all understand that. That's a common experience.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

Yeah. Uh for me, it was like, as we know, when you're in a sensitized state. So anyone who's listening to this podcast, you will know what it's like to be in the sensitized state. And the threat response is looking for the danger, and it often picks on our symptoms, and that's why we do these symptoms episodes. And dizziness, lightheadedness is a common one because it's looking for the threat. I remember in the midst of panic disorder and OCD, my threat response decided that dizziness and lightheadedness was the threat. And it often comes out in what ifs, doesn't it? Like, what are the main what-ifs that you get, Drew, when you start to become dizzy and lightheaded? The most common ones are what off the top of your head.

SPEAKER_05 3:18

Um, for me, it always, you know, it was weird. It just felt like it was gonna fall down. Yeah, so that was the number one thing. I'm gonna fall down. I can't stand up.

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Yeah. What if I fall down and then some of them are more catastrophic? Like, what if I collapse? What if I faint? People who've had a history of fainting as well, it particularly picks on them because, like, well, I fainted four years ago, so what's to say it's not happening now? Um, yeah, what if I embarrass myself and fall over? Yeah, what if I just lose my balance, you know? Um, it can overlap with other things. So with driving anxiety, you know, oh, I'm feeling dizzy. I possibly couldn't drive and feel dizzy because that's dangerous. Things like that. And I remember I used to, it changed how I how I walked, it changed everything. My walking literally changed to accommodate the fear of dizziness and the what if. There were so many mini compulsions in there and safety behaviors. And every time, like I noticed I was just a bit off, probably stuff that happens to everyone, but because we're in the hypersensitive, sensitized state, it exacerbates. And as we know, with every symptom of anxiety, if it's attuned to health, if it's attuned to bodily and somatic sensations, it feels 10 times worse. Um, and yeah, it used to really freak me out. I I slowed down my life a lot, you know. I'd I'd avoid not the dizzy, I thought I was avoiding dizziness, but I'm actually avoiding how it made me feel. So I like in the morning, I usually just bolt up. I'd sit up straight in bed, bang, away we go. But then I noticed I was like even like sitting up. I don't I shouldn't stand up so quickly, I should sit up so quickly, and and things like that. And yeah, I started to literally behave like someone where the dizziness was actually a threat. And I had this for a couple of years, it was it was really annoying. So I'm glad we're talking about it today.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

My brain, I now that I think about it, my brain also interpreted it as something wrong with my brain. So, like an immediate health threat, like yes, and what if I fall down? But also something is wrong with my brain right now, like a stroke, a bleed, an aneurysm, it would jump to that. If I'm feeling a little bit lightheaded or dizzy, oh, that could mean that something really bad is happening to me medically right now. And it's so funny how you say you changed your walking. I definitely changed my walking around it, and this makes me laugh now. But fighter pilots who experience heavy G forces learn something called the hick maneuver, which is like it forces you use your your core muscles and your leg muscles to force the blood up into your head when you're in like a 7G, you know, whatever crazy fighter pilot. I would do that when I was getting off my sofa. I would do the hick maneuver. Like, hey, if any any uh high performance pilots are listening today, thank you for your service, by the way, regardless of the country. I'm sorry, I appropriated that from you and it was ridiculous. But I did that for a while.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

You getting up off your sofa is the equivalent of a pilot going through multiple G4.

SPEAKER_05 6:24

Yes, legitimately, like I was in the Blue Angels. Like, what was I thinking? Like now I can laugh about it, but at the time it felt like a really good idea to do that.

SPEAKER_04 6:34

Here's what here's a question for you. What song do you think fighter pilots play in their aircraft?

SPEAKER_05 6:40

I think right when you're hit like that six or seven G mark, you get this. Welcome to a rave disorder episode 135 where we rave.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

Yeah, it but it's it's interesting because like looking back now, someone's desensitized. I didn't realize the impact actually how much dizziness had. And for anyone who's listening and and they're building their life around dizziness, know that, yeah, no one likes dizziness, okay? But everyone gets dizzy now and then. Obviously, do your due diligence. If you've got a lot of excessive dizziness, get it checked out as you do, get your assurances and things. Uh, or you might have some kind of you know, like uh pre-existing conditions that exacerbate it, you know, like pots, stuff like that, low blood pressure, things like that. But uh, once you get like the okay's and stuff from your doctor, look and client and distinguish what has become like kind of rational accommodations for dizziness, but then when uh disordered anxiety is decided to hijack it, so no, like there is such thing as like keeping an eye on symptoms, and then there's the disordered way of keeping an eye on symptoms, which is all the time. Um, I don't know about you, Drew, but a walk in the park or a walk down the street suddenly was set up as an event for me to just compulsively scan, ruminate, keep an eye out for my symptoms. And I I've gone from outwards and curious to inwards and compulsing.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

Yeah. All right. We when we did our last symptom episode, which was air hunger, we we talked about that. Like the your breath, you start to monitor your breath all day long, which you don't have to do. Well, in the dizzy sensation or the lightheaded sensation, I was constantly monitoring my vision to see am I steady? Am I steady now? Am I steady now? Is it happening? And yeah, like walking down a street where it was like a long or grocery store aisle, it would definitely trigger that. Like, okay, are the lines still parallel? I would legitimately be checking to see if my feeling tilted, does the floor look level? And I would constantly be checking to see do I am I okay now? Am I okay now? And in the end, I that didn't need to be done. So I would have the sensation of dizzy. It's interesting because I I used to talk about this a lot when I first started podcasting in my Facebook group, and you know, I was far from becoming a trained therapist at that point. I would talk about that a lot. And it was the old like um, are you dizzy or are like actual dizzy? I would try to help people see the difference between actual dizzy, and I get vertigo sometimes, actual vertigo. Like that's dizzy. You know, that the anxious dizzy is just sort of an off-balance, not exactly right. Are you falling down? No, but it feels like I'm gonna fall down.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

Are you actually dizzy as a you're like six foot as well? Like yeah, I'm just driving. Vertigo just looking down.

SPEAKER_05 9:35

Oh the six foot three guy in the room. No, you're taller than me. I I'm just barely under six feet. I'm not not not as tall as you. But yeah, it was it it was a thing. Like there was, you know, are you really done?

SPEAKER_04 9:50

I've literally had vertigo from walking. I believe you just just looking down.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Well, you know, it's so interesting because I think now in the in a day and age too, where everybody is spending so much time looking at the stupid screens, like phones in our hands with their heads tilted down, that more people are starting to experience that disturbance of like, well, I look down so much, when I look up, it's weird. Everything looks weird. Yeah, yeah. Well, put your phone. It's funny because my eye doctor, I have terrible eyesight. My eye doctor was one that said that. You know, I'm like, I don't know, I'm having a hard time. Like, have my prescription changed. It was during the pandemic, actually. And I remember him saying, like, okay, not picking on you, but you like everybody else that's bored right now. How much time you spend with your head down looking six inches in front of you? I'm like, too much. Put your damn, put your damn phone down, come back and see me in six months, and then we'll see if your eye prescription has changed. And it hadn't. It was just that weird phone fishing thing. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

It's true. I get that now, you know, and and particularly with like not only dizziness and stuff like that, lifting your head up, but like getting a lot of inquiries about DPDR, derealization, depersonalization. Well, of course, things are gonna look weird if you look at your phone and look at the phone usage of how much per day the percentage of your day is six inches in front of your face. And then we wonder that sometimes how that doesn't help with our depth perception of things around us. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, derealization stuff's got other parts to it, but that doesn't help as well, like particularly when we're hyper focusing on symptoms like that. Um, avoidance. Did you ever avoid things because you were dizzy? You're a gym rat. I like the gym. I used to, in the peak of dizziness, avoid the gym. I wouldn't go on the treadmill just in case. Oh no, that was I looked at a treadmill and go, Whoa, I I'm too dizzy. I'm gonna fall off, I'm gonna cartwheel, spin off, embarrass myself, crack my head on the side. I wouldn't go on the treadmill, I wouldn't do anything strenuous just in case.

SPEAKER_05 11:49

Yeah, that the treadmill was a tough one too, because it's that weird, and it wasn't even it was getting on the treadmill, being on there, but then getting off the treadmill. You know that thing where you get off the treadmill and it's that weird, you got like two seconds to adjust, terra firmer, and that would be bad for a person who was terrified of possibly feeling dizzy. One thing that I do remember that was it's kind of tough when I remember that. My kids were small at the time, my girls, they wanted to learn how to ice skate. Now I've been I've skated since I'm a kid, so I wanted to teach them how to ice skate, but no, ice skating was it's no bueno because that's a weird I might get dizzy, like it's weird, things are moving a little more quickly. I feel weird on the skates, like I don't skate that much anymore. And uh for a while I was really worried about getting on the ice, really worried. No, oh wow, yeah. I messed out on it now that you mentioned it, like, yeah, there was times when they would, you know, they wanted me to take them down port or whatever where I live, there's a rink and like teach them how to skate. They didn't want to fall down, by the way, so they never did really learn how to skate because oh you're gonna have to fall down. FYI. Girls, if you're listening, you still have to learn how to fall down. But I was really nervous on the skates. It's like a metaphor for anxiety recovery. That's exactly right. Like, you gotta get get on your butt so I can teach them.

SPEAKER_04 12:56

Can I get a round of applause for that, please?

SPEAKER_05 12:58

Uh, yeah, probably. I missed that one. I'm looking at it, I'm like, we haven't played Stallone in a long time, but yes, you can get applause. I looked at the button, I'm like, I am the law. I missed that one.

SPEAKER_04 13:16

I asked for an applause for highlighting that it could have been a metaphor, and you've shocked me.

SPEAKER_05 13:20

I shocked you with Judge Dredd, absolutely. Uh but yeah, so I would avoid it.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

You've got to learn to fall down.

SPEAKER_05 13:26

Yeah, that's 100% true. But I would avoid the ice skating thing. I didn't want to get on the skates, the gym stuff. When I really think about this, when I started lifting heavy again, uh, you know as well as anybody does. Like people legitimately go into the gym and feel like feeling like the gym is spinning and you're about to puke after like squats or deadlifts is a badge of honor. But for me, it was like, oh god, I'm gonna squat. Like when I get done with this set, oh my god, I might feel a little bit lightheaded, which is normal. And it would, I would dread it. I would absolutely dread it. But I will admit that lifting helped me with that. It was interoceptive work. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

And yeah, we'll talk about interoceptive exposure in a bit. Um, I think we should have a community win.

SPEAKER_05 14:10

I think you're probably right. We got a couple of really good dit it anyway, so let's play one of those right now. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Hi, Drew and Josh. Um, my name's Patty, you can use my name. Um, I'm coming from Southampton, England, and yeah, just a sort of doing it anyway. Next week I'm going to Australia for six months, completely on my own, and yeah, for years I've struggled with health anxiety, and uh yeah, the past few weeks I've been really struggling with the thought of going to Australia um on my own, thinking, am I gonna spiral, am I gonna just need my own space all the time or just sort of become recluse? I've never really been a recluse before, but um I've been just yeah, it's it's a lot going on. It's uh there's a bit of um, I don't know, like a sensory overload of all these feelings that are going through my mind. And yeah, for the past few weeks I've been really struggling with my anxiety. But yeah, I'm doing it anyway. I know it's gonna be hard in some days. I know it's gonna be really fun, enjoyable, and I'm gonna make loads of new memories. But yeah, I just thought um let you know that I'm doing it anyway. Even I all my phenos are telling me not to, but I'm still gonna do it. Thanks, guys.

unknown 15:20

Good job.

SPEAKER_04 15:21

Well done, Paddy. That's really good. Nice one. Good attitude shift there. Good, a good reminder of what the attitude shift is, and you know, all the best over in Australia. That's gonna be a really good trip for you, my man.

SPEAKER_05 15:32

I think everybody's nervous by Australia's scary, man. They got bugs that don't exist anywhere except on Mars and Australia, so I'd be scared too going.

SPEAKER_04 15:40

Yeah, no, you're gonna have a really good time. Uh, that's the thing with disordered anxiety, the rational threats. Meh. Yeah, but you know, disordered anxiety. Oh, so well done, Patty. That's really good. You're gonna have a belter. Um, that's cool. Also, we did I did hear uh Patty mention the word spiral. I know. Is there a song that could describe what spiraling is like?

SPEAKER_05 16:01

I think there is. If you can see the two of us dancing, which no one should ever see, FYI.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

So it's a good thing we don't really post this video, but uh lightheadedness, that dizziness and lightheadedness they always overlap with like other symptoms. So I hated feeling hungry. I used to compulsively eat, even though I wasn't hungry, because if I was hungry, I might feel lightheaded and I hated that feeling.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

That's a good point. The blood sugar thing. I was so nervous that my blood sugar was gonna crash, and I did tie it to that lightheaded feeling. This must mean my blood sugar is crashing. It was never crashing. I I've told this story before. I I bought a kit, I bought like a test kit at the height of that, and it would be like bink, nope, 99, perfect, but yet I was convinced that I was lightheaded, which means I was in very close to diabetic shock, which I was not even close to, but like I thought I was.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

And all the type one diabetics listening to this would be like, What are you doing, man? I mean you have no idea. You have no idea what that feels like. You know, shut up.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Yeah, and and and rightfully so. That would be a great response, right? From the type one diabetics in the audience for sure. But uh yeah, it was tied to that. It was tough. It was tied to I try to stay calm all the time because I was afraid even to get really excited or get really angry. Because if I got really excited or really angry or something, I might get the oh, I might get lightheaded, I might get that like weird, which is and it would get tied to DPDR because then I would worry that it would trigger DPDR. If I was lightheaded, that might mean that I might become depersonalized. What a mess it was. It was just constant monitoring and scanning all the damn time.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

Yeah. So what's the answer then? Pretty much the same answer we say to everything. We teach the threat response that lightheadedness and dizziness are not a threat. How do we do that? We do it with our attention and our behavior. If you take our shock attention resistance model, you're gonna have the shock. Ooh, I'm dizzy and lightheaded. Now, I'm gonna give it my attention and resist it. No, right. So we can do the opposite. Uh, and a good anxiety disorder therapist, usually anxiety disorder informed, trained in third-wave CBT, stuff like that, might suggest doing something called interoceptive exposure. It's something I've done. Uh, one of my favorite I'll ask you, fellow therapist Drew, but one of my favorite ones back in my practice, you can do it online stuff, um, is getting people sorry is getting people to sit in their chair and spin around and around and around for like 60 seconds, and then I get them to stand up. Why? Because it's gonna make them feel dizzy and trigger the threat response and the amygdala, and then we just sit there and talk about their favorite holiday while they're while while the room is spinning. A really good one. What ones do you do?

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Um, the chair one is always a big one. I've had people just stand up and do it too. Like the chair is scary to them, but standing up and spinning around feels somehow scarier to them. Uh, I even had two people do it where they covered their heads. You know, we had grabbed the pillowcase, did it with with their head cover because it made it even scarier, like that felt so out of control. And yeah, in the end, after that 30, 40, 50 seconds of spinning around, the person is dizzy and very uncomfortable and a little panicky, but we just kind of hang in there with that and just watch it slowly do it what it's supposed to do and come down. And those are just valuable lessons. It's a great exercise, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:28

And and that's the same as if you if you're not doing interoceptive exposure. When I was recovering, I was literally practicing willful tolerance by walking down the street whilst dizzy, intentionally being dizzy. Yeah, so instead of building my life around, am I gonna get dizzy doing all that? And I remember going back to the treadmill. I used to do exposures on the treadmill. Don't get me wrong, I didn't jump on it and start sprinting like you saying bolt. But you know, I was like, actually, I'm just gonna get used to this. And then I would mess around with the gradient on it. So I'm like, okay, I'm getting used to being flat. Now I'm gonna walk a bit while you know I'm on an incline and things like that. Uh, and then the treadmill is a great one because then you get off the treadmill and you have the moving floor feeling, and you're like, ooh, I don't like that. And you're just practicing with that without compulsing, scanning, checking, is it gone? Is it there? Is my anxiety worse? And just like, no, I'm teaching my brain that this is okay, and we're eradicating the secondary fear associated with it.

SPEAKER_05 20:25

Yeah, when we do an interoceptive practice like that, you're you're coaching the client to not, there's a there's resistance, they want to brace, they want to push back against that. And the coaching there is no, no, no, you got to soften into it. No, I know it's uncomfortable, but you got to soften into that. Just let it happen. So that's how the person learns. That's how I learned to notice, and plus just a lot of mindfulness practice and whatnot. Notice when I am pushing back against my experience, any experience. This one for sure. I mean, I have crappy eyes, so I like two different kinds of glasses. I spend too much time looking at my monitor and doing this stuff. So if I have a quick, like maybe visual weirdness for a second, I'm I'm pretty aware these days, so I know right away, like, oh, I, you know, it got my attention, sure, because that's automatic. And then I can see if I'm fighting it right away. And I soften into that, it passes, it's all good. So, like, that's what I had to learn how to do. So people are invariably listening, like, okay, cool, but but how do you accept this? But how but but how do you not scan?

SPEAKER_04 21:25

I was gonna say, because there'll be some people I know that'll be like, I'm trying the soften, softening into it, and it's not working.

SPEAKER_05 21:31

Right. Or sometimes it just becomes I'm trying, but how do you but how am I supposed to do that? Like, I understand softening into it when Josh got off the tread treadmill and let that weird moving floor feeling, that was an act of courage. It just is. So, like, we can't forget that part. You are going to be afraid to do that, to soften. Yeah, but it's okay, you can learn from that.

SPEAKER_04 21:51

Yeah, or I always just do do do strive towards what non anxious you would do. So, like I remember once being in a in a cafeteria. And I needed to walk to the other side of the cafeteria around people to I don't know, I was picking up a coffee or putting my tray back or something. And I remember sat down, and I was like, I stood up and I was like, ooh, and I and I paused, I was like, hold on, I don't need to pause here. This is happening all the time. I don't fall over. I'm gonna go and put this coffee cup back or whatever. And I did it whilst dizzy. And then my attention was outwards, and I was doing, I was teaching the brain, look, I can do this whilst dizzy, it's okay. Also, I'm probably not as dizzy as I think I am. Yeah, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 22:33

I think that makes a lot of sense because when you practice like that, suddenly you do recognize, like maybe it wasn't as bad as I always said it was, or thought it was.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah, you think, and another good thing as well that you can do, like a good CBT therapist would do with you, is like that sometimes like you record yourself what you think is happening, and then you watch back to what's actually happening because your experience through the lens of anxiety is not really a projection of reality. So there's really good like experiences with like um doing exposure or teraseptic expec uh exposure, where all right, we're gonna spin around and then you can like, or whatever, if you're anxious and tray good now, record yourself walk across the room. Now compare how you felt to what actually happened.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:19

Interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 23:20

It really is. Because that subjectiveness, when you're afraid, it skews all of your perception. Like that was awful, it was horrible. I never want to do that again. But then the video of you walking across the room is yeah, you were just spinning around, so you're a little unsteady, but you were not bouncing off the walls, you did not stumble on your face, you did not pass out. But it could be really those why those experiences are so important. But in the end, like, well, what do I do? How do I soften into it? Well, when we had Sally Winston and Marty Stephon, and she said Sally Winston said such a great thing. People often say, like, well, what do I do now? Whatever's next, the next step that you have to take, the next sip of your water, the next word in the conversation, the next whatever it is you're doing. Do whatever comes next. Oh, but uh, but is it so scary? I know you're gonna have to do it while you're scared and let the feeling pass and learn from that.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

Yeah, absolutely love it. Um more community wins. Uh, I think you've got a written dinner anyway.

SPEAKER_05 24:15

I do have a written dinner anyway. I am happy to read it. Um, oh, this one comes from our friends in Canada. By the way, Canada, we st we we like you here, just for the record. I still like Canada. Um, and hope you still like us. Um, greetings from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I wanted to reach out and say a big merci. I've been working with a psychotherapist for a few months now to help with the anxiety. She is an old friend of mine since childhood, the anxiety, not the therapist, uh, and has been more intense since I went back to school during COVID and started a new career and became a self-employed. Therapy has been really helpful, and then I discovered your podcast and I had kind of an aha moment. The timing was just perfect, and your way of explaining concepts really hit home, especially about Gag, Craig the Critic, the Amygdala. And yes, I am hearing the deep, scary voice now anytime I think of it. Amygdala. Um, and self-compassion. Anyway, I just wanted to share that I was so inspired by all the listeners sharing their Did It Anyways that last week I drove on the highway for the first time in about 10 years. Just before I did, I was really scared and my hands were shaking, but I felt so fed up by the limits I was imposing on myself, I said F it and just went for it. Even though I caused an accident, just kidding. Uh, it went so well. I love this joker, and I was so proud of myself. I will go again very soon and regain the freedom that I was missing. Thank you for amazing work, your little inside jokes. You make my journey way easier. I hope my message was not too hard to understand. My first language is French. Have a great day. Oh, hell, that was really awesome. And super easy to understand. Your English is spectacular, better than mine.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

I love that even though I had an acted.

SPEAKER_05 25:49

Some listeners of this podcast will be like, oh Yeah, I love the little joking there. The fact that this person can access a little bit of humor and take a little bit of perspective and like, okay, I'm turning this into a nightmare, but I want my life back. So I'm gonna maybe poke a little fun at it and see what happens. It's good. I like that.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

I I've got a written one. Do you want to hear it? Yeah, let's hear it. Of course I do. Okay, this is from Vicky. Uh my did it anyway, and you can use my name. Thanks, Vicki. After two abusive relationships, I developed relationship OCD as a wonky mechanism to keep myself safe. I'm now in a relationship with a wonderful man, but my OCD picks up on any hint that something might be wrong, and my threat response means I'm ready to run for the hills at any point. After my latest wobbly period, I'm terrified to commit to anything more than a couple of weeks ahead, as my intrusive thoughts tell me that it's all going to go tits up and become a dumpster fire. But I want a committed relationship. So even though it feels excruciating, we've booked a holiday for next year. I did it anyway. I didn't keep making excuses or being non-committal, I bloody did it. Thank you for all your work. After years of anxiety and OCD, your podcast has made me realize that chasing a cure or recovery isn't the way forward. Desensitization. Instead, I need to take steps to make my life bigger, brighter, and more sparkly by doing the things. And that's how I'll dim the noise and fade the intrusive thoughts. Big love from Vicky in Litchfield.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

Oh, good job, Vicky.

SPEAKER_04 27:28

I love, you know, I love a good OCD. Did it anyway? I absolutely love because it's massive, isn't it? It's like you get all your brains screaming, no, that's commitment. No. And you know, you know what? We're off to buttlins. No, no, no. You know what? We're going on holiday. All right? And that's okay, because that's my, as Drew says, values. I want a committed relationship, and I'm not doing this. Well done, Vicky. It's a big one for me, and I hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

I think it's so important that Vicky points out that it isn't always the actual doing of the actual thing. Just hitting that book now button on the flight or the hotel or whatever. That was really brave because I'm sure she got super like anxious and afraid when she did that. So great job.

SPEAKER_04 28:12

Same with Paddy before. Yeah. You know, I'm gonna go Australia. Different trepidation, but same threat response.

SPEAKER_05 28:18

Yeah, I hear you. Like everything is telling me to not do this, but I'm still gonna go. I'm I'm not gonna let it tell me to not do this.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

So well done. Yeah, really love it. That is good, that is good. Um, anything else on dizziness, or should we have another did it anyway and a question? I mean, it's pretty much there. Go practice being dizzy, do your due diligence, go check with the doctor, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, once you get the all clear, go practice being dizzy, doing things, you know. Get yourself a swing ball, you know. Why don't you go on the on the roundabout thing at the um at the park? Or just sit in your car and go round and round the roundabout over and over again until you're dizzy. Spin on the spot or dance along to this song. Ooh, because it is a banger.

SPEAKER_05 29:00

Um baby, right sounds like a big thing. I'm not getting bored with that at all. That's so easy, it's so easy to use.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

We aren't the listeners are.

SPEAKER_05 29:13

You know what I did do. You reminded me, drive. We don't really have roundabouts here. Um, they have them in New England, but we don't really have them on Long Island. But what we do have is the exit and entrance ramps on the freeway, motorway, highway, whatever to call it. Whoa, those were always so scary for me because you are getting, I'm doing 65, 70 miles an hour. You get off the ramp and you make a 360-degree turn to go up over the you know, the bridge or whatever it is. And I would work so hard to keep my vision, you which you can't, by the way. You have to move your eyes when you're driving. And I would try to focus on a point in front of me so that I wouldn't accidentally get dizzy if I was driving.

SPEAKER_04 29:52

And yeah, no, you do the opposite. Go do the opposite of what your threat response wants you to do. It's uh whether it's out of breath as well, it's a good one. Yeah, you know, because it overlaps with so much panic, you might get dizzy, it's not special. Yeah, you know, hyperventilating, breathing, whatever it is, it's not the special symptom, you know. Um, we learn to teach the threat response that it's not, you know, it doesn't deserve secondary fear.

SPEAKER_05 30:17

You know, we don't really do this on disorder, but I I'm gonna go out and take a flyer on this and say, uh, I'm gonna issue a bit of a challenge. We don't do challenges or anything here because we're not comparing and we're not competing with each other.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

But what Ice Beth, 5 30 a.m.

SPEAKER_05 30:30

Make sure you face exactly 72 degrees southeast. The the when you get done listening to this episode, and we're almost done, we'll do another 10 minutes or so. When you're done with this episode, what if you were done with dizzy and lightheaded content now? Like, is there any purpose? I would ask you to challenge this belief. Is there any purpose in asking again about it or reading about it or looking for it or scrolling for it at all in the next 24 hours? What would happen if you stopped trying to learn, read, listen, or talk more about lightheaded and dizzy? We get we're giving you 40 minutes on it now. So you consider what would happen if you just go be dizzy instead of talking about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:11

I love that challenge. I love that challenge. And and also, if you are struggling, just go and spin to the song.

SPEAKER_05 31:17

Yeah, you spin me right round. And you know, in the end, you know why it's really scary when you feel that lightheaded and dizzy thing, but in the end.

unknown 31:33

It doesn't matter!

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Oh, yeah, shoe on that one and put it in there. I had to move it in. Anyway. And we got um let's move another did it anyway.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

We have an audio did it anyway, then we have a good question that I guess we can answer. So let's listen to this one first.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Fernanda, and you can use my name. So my husband and I have been going through trying to conceive, and I can't think of anything that would be more difficult for my OCD, health anxiety, panic situation, and general GAD. I want to share and did it anyway with you today. I had to do a really invasive test to make sure that my body was okay to carry a child, and I was super anxious about it. I was really panicking, but I did it anyway, even if I even though I was given a chance to not do it. So, yeah, thank you for all the work that you do, and I just want to give a big shout out to anybody who's trying to conceive that has OCD or other forms of anxiety because it's extremely challenging, really hard to monitor your body and check in a way that's not compulsive. So just know that you're getting through it and we can do it.

SPEAKER_05 33:03

That is a values-based did it anyway, right there.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Oh, and combine a values-based did it anyway with an OCD did it anyway. And oh, you're you get a good handshake from the disordered crew. Well done, Fernanda.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

100%. Yeah, I I I I love the part where she like was given a chance to not do it. You can back out of this, like, no, no, no, no, this is important to me. I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

So yeah, excellent. And then spreading the love in the community as well. It's nice to feel seen. So well done. And I hope everyone goes absolutely spot on. I really appreciate your bravery and courage.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

100%. We got a question that we missed last week. So I don't know if I produced it. Hang on though.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Hi, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

Uh, you know what? I don't have any music under it, but that's fine. Let's listen to the question anyway.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Daniela, and I'm from New Market, Ontario. You can say my name. Uh, first off, I want to say thank you for all of the education that you provide to us and everything that you guys do. You guys are awesome. Uh, you have helped me tremendously, and throughout the summer, I was on top of the world. I thought I was healed, quote unquote. Um but once the fall season had approached and uh the kids went back to school and we got back into that everyday mundane routine, I fell back into old habits. Um, and now looking back, I realized in hindsight how I ended up where I am today with the anxiety and the panic and the physical symptoms. Um, but I didn't notice it. And I'm realizing that I have returned back to my default narrative where I'm stuck in the anxiety loop and the worry thoughts and and um all of that. So I was wondering, is there a way of being more cogniz or more aware when you fall into that loop or rabbit hole, I should say, of your default narrative?

SPEAKER_05 35:09

What do you think? Great question. Thank you, Daniela.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

It's a really good question. Also, like it do you read audiobooks? I like that would be amazing. Apply for apply for calm and read those but those bedtime stories. I was like, this is so relaxing. How can you have an anxiety disorder when you speak like that?

SPEAKER_05 35:27

We mean like a uh a female third mic on disordered, and it should be Daniela, because you're right. That's actually great.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

What a relaxing voice.

SPEAKER_05 35:35

I know.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

Uh lovely. Um, narratives. No, I'm gonna mirror it back to you, Drew. What's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 35:40

Um, I think it's an excellent question. This is a mindfulness question in on the down low, right? So, what Danielle is asking is how can I be a little bit more aware of when I have fallen back into the trap of the default narrative, which is such a great realization. Danielle, the fact that you know that and can name it and see it, that's half the battle. Well done. Because a lot of people would say, but I feel things again, but it's back, but my symptoms, but this, but it's so scary. And Danielle is able to say, Oh, well, what's going on here? It's I just got scared enough to make it the most important thing again and to closely interact with it all day long. Okay. So it's a mindfulness question. Mindfulness is just awareness that gets bigger and better when we practice paying attention. So you really gotta work on that, the ability to say, hang on, what's actually going on right now? I'm feeling this sensation, or I'm having this scary thought, I'm afraid, I'm disturbed right now. What do I want to do next? Like, I feel like I want to fight this and fix it, but do I have another option? It's practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. So there's a reason why we use mindfulness practices in recovery. This is one of them. So I can learn to be a little more aware.

SPEAKER_04 36:47

Uh I mean, I would ask, I would answer just like you've done 90% of the work. You you're aware the narrative has changed. A lot of people who are resensitized are unaware. Usually they subscribe to the narrative of, oh, it's back, I'm I've relapsed, uh, I need to fix it, I need to give it my attention again. And actually, no. Like it's you're aware that you've fallen into an old habit. So change the narrative. What's the narrative? The current narrative is I don't, like Drew said, I don't need to make this the most important thing in the room.

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

The narrative changed. You had a great summer because anxiety wasn't the most important thing in the room. I guarantee you, you had anxious moments over the summer, but you didn't upgrade it to the top of the table and make it the most important thing in the room. The narrative that's changed is it's now the most important thing in the room. The fact that Danielle is now saying, How can I observe and notice you already are? Yeah, you're already doing it. It's really great. You know, now we've just got to go back into comp all right. My narrative is got to stop these compulsions and stop making this the most important thing in the room. Really good question. I would argue you've 90% there already. I think you're right. You know, just a lot a lot of it's just like a doing or a not doing, as we say. Just like, I've got to stop making this the most important thing in the room. Yeah. So when you wake up in the morning, it's not how do you feel, it's what am I having on my toast.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

I you know, on a practical level, I usually try to teach people, and we had Russ Harris on, you know, talking about Act. He does the Act Triflex, get present. So I try and teach people out what's actually happening right now. I'm afraid, I'm disturbed, I'm anxious, I feel this thing in my body. That's it. That's the end of that story. Do I have options here? I can either follow it and then it gets upgraded to first class and it runs rules the roost. Or do I have another option? I could just go and butter my toast. You're right. I could do that. Which one is matters to me more? The toast. So that's it. Like what's actually happening? Do I have options here or do I have only one option, which is follow it? I think I have multiple options. Let me pick the one that matters to me most.

SPEAKER_04 38:47

Yeah, yeah. Or well, at the time, sometimes it doesn't feel like it matters to you. It's what which one do I want to matter to me the most?

SPEAKER_05 38:56

Oh, that's really important. That's so good.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Buttering toast.

SPEAKER_05 38:58

Yeah. Buttering toast feels like it does not matter compared to save myself from this feeling or this thought. Yeah. But no, no, no. I'm trying to stop being engaged all the time with my thoughts and my feelings so the toast actually is the thing that does matter more.

SPEAKER_04 39:11

Yeah. I want that to be to more, so I will behave with the one that I want the most. Anyway, really good question, Daniel.

SPEAKER_05 39:19

Thank you, Danielle. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 39:21

I think we're good. Please keep sending them in. Um, send some voice notes in at disorder.fm. Uh you can just click on record voicemail and we'll listen to them. Sorry, we can't get back to all of them. We we get quite a lot, but um, send them in and um we really appreciate them. We do listen to the voice notes. Um, and you can also send in a message email on disorder.fm as well. Sign up to the mailing list while you're there. You'll be the first to know when the uh health anxiety book is released, which oh, I think it'll be might be released by no, this is out on Friday, isn't it? No, I think the the week after. There we are. But there we go. And um, yeah, you'll find out more about the upcoming disordered community app where we can share all these community wins and stuff as well, all at disorder.fm. You got anything to add, Drew?

SPEAKER_05 40:13

I can't add anything to that. That's all the good stuff. So thanks for listening, guys. We appreciate it. We'll be back in a week with some other topic.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Can you play me a s an appropriate song to leave? Yeah, I think we can probably do that.