"Anxiety Recovery OCD?" (Episode 127)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

But it's a collection of things a person feels really strongly that they must do to bring down the discomfort caused by this thing they're fixated on. Sometimes that's am I recovering correctly today?

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Am I doing willful tolerance right?

SPEAKER_04 0:15

I must check if I'm doing willful tolerance right. Fixation on perfect recovery would say, Oh, that was a disaster because I panicked about as I was a why did that happen? I should have, I should have known. I thought I was better than that. I thought it was further along than that. What made me think I could do am I recovered? Am I 90% recovered? Am I healed? And then there's doubt. Like, does this even count? Like the progress I've already made. Does it is it even real? Does it even count? But how do I know I'm gonna get better? I don't believe it. I'm not this how can this work? I I've lost my I don't think this works. I know. Do it anyway, and let the practice and the experiences change your belief and your philosophy on the back end. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 127 entitled Recovery OCD. This is the episode where we coin a new term that might or might not exist, but too bad we're doing it anyway. Uh, I am Drew Linsolato, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. I'm a therapist practicing in New York, uh, in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders, former sufferer of the things we talked about on disorder, uh, three-time author on this, social media guy, guy that spends too much money on microphones. And yeah, one of my favorite hours of the day when I get to record with you gets to record with me.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Um, I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, also a therapist, this side of the pond. Write about it, prance about it. You get the drill. Uh recovery OCD. Yeah. Yeah, we are coining our own terms. Um, it was this was my idea, so you know, if if anyone comes at us, you can throw me in front of people. Uh we've done a similar episode in the past about, you know, like obsessed with recovery and stuff like that. But the more I do this job, um, the more I actually think OCD, which can latch onto a pretty much anything in a world full of information, misinformation, conflicting information, particularly in the wellness sphere, even in therapy. I think OCD can latch onto the concept of recovery itself. I agree. Yeah. And and I'm seeing that quite a lot. And um, so I thought, why not do an episode on it?

SPEAKER_04 2:21

You know, I I think when we had um we had Sally Winston and Marty Stefan, I don't know, whatever that was, last year sometime. And you said, Do you think all anxiety disorders are obsessive and compulsive? And Sally said, she thought for a second, she goes, No.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

I wonder if she lies in bed now thinking, you know what Josh was right. Everyone, everyone I meet thinks that.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

I suspect that that might keep her awake at night. It doesn't. Clearly, she doesn't, she does not be holding to us in any way. Legend we're just two parts with microphones. But I agree. And I think I think it speaks to what you said about that. All anxiety disorders are obsessive and go. We get fixated. All right, maybe, you know, the the true definition of obsession doesn't apply, but I kind of think it does. And as far as compulsion goes, like maybe in other anxiety disorders like panic disorder, the compulsion might not always be the same, but it's a collection of things a person feels really strongly that they must do to bring down the discomfort caused by this thing they're fixated on. And sometimes that's am I recovering correctly today? Or do I make progress today? Did I do it wrong today? Am I avoiding today? Am I avoiding is a question I get asked all the time. Is that are you seeing the same thing?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Am I doing am I doing willful tolerance right? I must check if I'm doing willful tolerance right. Am I doing this right? Am I still anxious? Is it there? Am I recovered? Am I 90% recovered? Am I healed? You know, and all that we're doing is not only do we, and it's okay to think and reflect on your progress, but then we start to think and reflect about the thinking and reflecting of our progress, and it becomes obsessive. The compulsing compulsions become checking, ruminating, but about it is am I recovered yet? And bear in mind, OCD always wants a singularity, a certainty, something to file away in a drawer so we can leave it, leave it alone. Yeah. But like if we're trying to propagate that all feelings are transient, all feelings are welcome, all feelings are this and that, then when you start getting pulled into the question, am I doing this right? Is it wrong? Am I recovered? Am I not? I still want to ban the word recovery. Um, I because for people with a recovery OCD, you know, I'm fully recovered. Well, guess what? Life's gonna get in the way, some bad stuff will happen, and you might become resensitized again. Yeah. Does that mean you are no longer recovered? No, under the umbrella of recovery is you might become resensitized again. It's about how you respond to that. So that's why I ban the word recovery because it suggests a singularity or a utopia that we can reach. And then when suddenly when life appears opposite to that, it becomes a thing and we go back into obsessing and compulsing again.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

Yeah, I think the word recovery, I'll get on board with that, by the way. Because it's funny. Last week on my, if you're not following me on Substack, maybe you want to do that, but last week on my Substack, I wrote a short note about impact. It's about impact. So when you are, you and I are working in our practices with therapy clients, we are never measuring their progress or even diagnosing them based on the thoughts they have or the sensations they have. It always has to involve, well, how does this impact you? So if you have a lot of crazy thoughts all day long, like everybody does, and there's zero impact on your function and you don't feel that it's a problem, then you're not diagnosable, even though you might have a bunch of what you might call intrusive or weird or unexplainable thoughts. So, re when people use the word recovery, they tend to look like that's a state that I'm trying to reach. It's actually not, it's a function, it's more functional measurement than it is a state of being. So, I mean, you know, you work with people and it's like, well, I don't understand why I'm still having that thought. All right, well, yeah, you had the thought. How long did that thought pin you down? Oh, I don't know, like 10, 12 minutes, and I was back about my day. Okay, six months ago that would pin you down for three weeks. So tell me that you're not moving forward. Yeah, but why is the thought still there? Oh, I thought I did better at this today. I didn't. Um, so yeah, I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Uh yeah, and then when you start getting metrics involved, yeah, yeah. It becomes obsessed and compulsive. Like I'm 90% I that means nothing to me. It's just how willing are you to have emotions today? Yeah, more willing than yesterday. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

Or maybe how much let me think about what I want to say here. If there's a metric, we can't help it. Like, human beings do this.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

I know, I do like a stat.

SPEAKER_04 6:44

Yeah, well, you know, we all get run into that, so it's okay. I mean, Josh and I do too, but like maybe ask yourself how much time do I spend can consulting how I feel before I live my day or the next hour? Like, as that starts to shrink, that's your percentage, or like, hey, this thing that used to be a problem for three days in a row is now only a problem for two hours, and then I tend to move on and I'm okay, cool. There's your percentage.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Like, that's really good. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

It's getting better. Like, that's that's good, but we people get obsessed with the sensations themselves, this the emotions that come up and the thoughts that they have. And I think that's where it's like, well, but but the thought, I'm I must it should I should I get dig into this thought if I walk away from that? Is that avoiding? So I yeah, I think you're right. Recovery OCD is a thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Let's hear something from the community and then we'll we'll give an example of what it might look like.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Yes, let's do that. So, you know what? Let's switch. No, no, let's do this one. Let's do the one that we want to do. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Hey Josh and Drew. My name's Chris. I'm based in Manchester, UK. Whee! Use my name. I'd like to share with you my did it anyway. Um, I'm a previous anxiety recovery. Uh suffered in 2015 for most of that year with severe anxiety, um, but recovered this year, having a few issues again with anxiety that I'm currently working through. Two years ago, at the age of 51, I auditioned for drama school and got in, and I've just started my final year. Um, so over this last summer, I got cast as one of the leads in a play. Um, me and another actor on stage for an hour and 20 minutes without a break. In the 10 or 20 seconds before I was about to say my first line, I got hit with a massive adrenaline flood, and all I wanted to do was run away. But I didn't. I uh not only did I stay and do it anyway, but got rave reviews for my performance. So that was my did it anyway. And I just wanted to say to people out there who think they can't do it. Honestly, you absolutely can. You just have to put the work in.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Drew's got a nice smile on his face. You liked that one, didn't you?

SPEAKER_04 9:02

That was. I was telling Josh before we started recording. That was a story that I needed today, and I didn't know I needed it. Chris, that was really, really great on so many fronts. Damn, I cannot even imagine that. Drama school, being on stage, acting, acting. I don't understand that whole thing at all. Thespian. Really great, man. Really great. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Uh so good. Well done. Um, there's one did it anyway that you didn't include. Where's my tickets, man? I'm in Manchester, I'm in the middle of Manchester. I want to I want to come see the play, be awesome. Yeah, and uh, I'll be in third three rows back going, believe the thoughts. It's all going wrong.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

You look pale, you look pale, Chris. You look pale. Don't invite Josh, don't send him tickets, he will just ruin the whole night. But there's so three seconds before he's about to like, and first of all, an hour and a half on stage. Just that sounds intimidating to me. Like, I do not understand the whole drama thing. So kudos on you. And right before he has to start saying his lines, there it is. Boom, the huge hit of like adrenaline and cortisol and all the stuff that comes with it. Like, nope, I'm gonna say my lines.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I love it, it's so good, and then even better, it doesn't. I mean, the the added bonus is that not only did he do it, he got rave reviews, and he's enjoying it, and well done for you know going to draw going to acting school as well, yeah. Uh, and all those things. That's uh that's a Billy Mays one. That's really good. Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

I think it speaks to today's topic because not only did I do it, did not run, stayed, finished my assignment, I got rave reviews. Recovery OCD or that fixation on perfect recovery would say, Oh, that was a disaster because I panicked about as I was a why did that happen? I should have, I should have known. I thought I was better than that, I thought it was further along than that. What made me think I could yeah, we didn't get stuck on that part. He was able to say, like, no, no, no, I went past that and I really did a great job. I can accept that those people are right. I did do a great job.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

When you look at like recovery OCD compared to like, and again, it's our term, yeah. Um, but like when you look at other OCD, like look at the obsession. So maybe it's contamination or losing control or anything, you know, the infinite themes that come with OCD. What if I'm violent? What if this and that? And it becomes an obsession because we believe falsely that if we give all of our attention to something, we have the illusion that we're fixing it or in air quotes working on it. Yeah. But as we know with anxiety disorders, that's counterintuitive because the more you give something attention, the more the brain considers it important. Now, with recovery OCD, we fall into that. I've got anxiety, I must recover. And yes, that is a rational thing to do. But when you when recovery itself becomes the fixation, you end up going backwards and backwards and backwards. And so I kind of and this is what I do with clients and people that have this specific one is that I first of all, step one, I don't want, you know, we don't say the word recovery. We say, how good were you with uncertainty today? And that is the only way to get out of it. Because well, how do you know? You know, how do you know you're recovered? I don't know, but I feel uncertain, and that's my homework. Yeah, but how do you know? How do you know you're recovered? How do you know you won't get anxious again? I don't know, but I'm uncertain. So that's why I know I'm not recovered. That's why I'm doing my homework, and that's the way out because anxiety and OCD always want the definitive answer. And when you say, no, my homework's to to like be uncertain. No, no, no, we're not allowed to be uncertain. No, no, no, no, no. That's my homework now. That's how you can break that cycle.

unknown 12:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Am I recovered? Who knows? I don't even ask myself. Am I recovered? I don't know. Feel uncertain. That's uncertainty. That's an uncertainty I'll sit with.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

100%. And not only am I uncertain, I'm actually doubting the progress that I've already made. So we have uncertainty and shout out to the ICBT crowd, the inferential confusion model. Like, not only is it uncertainty, it's doubt. Like, I have been moving forward. So I think this shows up in two ways. In the in the I'm making progress, but now I'm wondering if I'm really holding my progress or if I'm sliding backwards or if I'm ever going to get all the way. That's doubt. It's uncertainty because I don't, I don't know for certain that I'm going to finish this project or whatever you want to call your recovery or your progress. And then there's doubt. Like, does this even count? Like the progress I've already made. Does it is it even real? Does it even count? So, like that doubt and the discomfort that it makes, it makes you want, it compels you to like dig in and ask us if you're doing okay. But what happens when I keep having that thought? Well, what happens when you have a good week and then you have a bad week? How do I stop that from happening? You don't. You have to recognize I just had a thought about my mental health or my wellness, or I had a thought or an emotion that reflects my desire, which is I want to live a fuller life, and that worries me, and I'm feeling afraid and uncertain, and I have a lot of doubt about myself right now. That's allowed. Those are those are emotions. What should I do now? Should I dig into that or should I go toward the thing that I so desperately want, which is life, the life bar?

SPEAKER_02 14:26

And part of that's a good point, but part of like I was getting good at the skill of tolerating uncertainty. It's a skill you learn, yeah, you know, and it includes all questions, whether it's about your recovery or whatnot. Because when life does throw uncertainty at you and you got good at the skill of doing it, even with the pound pumping adrenaline, pounding heart, like DPDR, weird intrusive thoughts, internal Craig the Critic, all these kind of things, what you need to realize is that if you've built up that distress tolerance, and this is the difference between getting hooked on anxiety disorders and mistaking anxiety as a problem compared to, let's say, the neurotypical person who, you know, oh, I had a panic and then now I don't I don't even think about it again. Is that we build up that distress tolerance, and you can apply that to all facets of your life. It's a it's a skill that you take. This is why I never regret developing an anxiety disorder, because it makes you realize actually, wow, here's an opportunity to develop my stress tolerance. Um, also, and you know it as well, because how many people do you know? Like, oh, I struggle with panic, I can't live like a normal person. But when shit hits the fan and crisis happens, they're always really good at it because they know because they know they're constantly living in distress, so distress is then normal to them. Yeah. What I'm saying is we tolerate it in the day-to-day to try and access that too.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

Yeah, and I think it's not only a it's a skill for sure. I agree with that a hundred percent. And like any skill, we must practice it, we must repeat it. Like we stink at it. Some days, even when we're good at it, we stink at it because that skill is highly dependent upon your emotional state and your you know, energy level and your emotion, you know, what's going on in your life. Like some days you're gonna be way better at tolerating it, some days you're not, but that's normal, that's a normal part of the human experience. But not only is there skill involved, there's I almost want to call it a philosophy or belief. So, like, if you look at these stupid guitars behind me, if I can draw that analogy, I know that if I want to be able to play these instruments, I have to practice them. So I have to build the skill. That's a skill playing the guitar. But I won't even bother practicing the skill if I don't believe that doing that will lead to what I want.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Absolutely bang on.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

So, yeah. So I that's that that's it.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

You have to believe in why you're doing it.

SPEAKER_04 16:56

Or guess 100%. I might not believe that if I pick up that Stratocaster and play for an hour today, I may have no faith in my right now. I don't, I'm never gonna get better at this, but I'm gonna have to do that anyway, because I can't know until I do it. So that's so hard. And I think what gets in the way, this sort of recovery OCD, the the phrase we're sort of coining and using colloquially with Shakespeare and with coining our own thing. We are coining a phrase like hello, it's gonna do DSM 5-JD for Josh and Drew. Like, this is gonna be our own version of the DSM. Very good. I love it. But I I think it the belief, but I don't believe. But how do I know I'm gonna get better? How do I know I'm gonna, I don't believe it. I'm not this, how can this work? I I've lost my I don't think this works. I know, do it anyway, and let the skill, let the practice and the experiences change your belief and your philosophy on the back end because that's how it works. So if you don't believe that you can do this today, or you don't believe you can keep getting better, or you don't believe you can hang on to your progress, totally fine. Don't believe it. You don't have to believe it to do it. Nobody that's not a law, you don't have to believe it to practice the skill.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Here's a paradox for you. If you're oh conundrum, I don't know. I'm not sure. Maybe don't if you are even asking the question, am I recovered yet? You've answered your own question.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

Yeah, that's 100% right.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

Yeah, people are so for people with recovery OCD, am I recovered yet? I'm recovered. If I'm even asking that question, I'm signaling to the brain that recovery is the most paramount thing in my in my life, and therefore there's some level of it, of it's not okay to be anxious. Am I recovered yet? Or what are you actually saying to the brain, checking with your metrics, compulsions, stuff like that, that it's still not okay to be anxious. We bang on over and over and over again that it is okay to be anxious. We teach the brain it's not a threat in itself, we want to erase that secondary fear. So even if you are asking the question, Am I recovered? How recovered am I? And you're if you're in that recovery OCD loop of I'm obsessed with recovery. No, you you can't. You can't pull all of your energy and make your life about air quotes recovery, because that sends the wrong signal to the brain that it's important, particularly if we're saying that all feelings are welcome and they're transient, and we're practicing the willful tolerance of uncertainty. This is why I want to ban the word recovery, because it doesn't help. Now, don't get me wrong, you can say, you know, like oh, I recovered from an anxiety disorder many years ago, and what it feels like, of course, you know, I'm not going on actually banning words and burning books and stuff, or leave that to um others. I'm not, I'm not gonna carry others, uh, but like I'm gonna go like just just look at your relationship with it and stuff. And I always keep it simple. It's like cool. Did do we get some good practice? Were there opportunities to practice with uncertainty this week? Oh yeah, yeah, I was really anxious at uh the meal. Oh, brilliant, cool, right? How did that go? Yeah, oh yeah, actually, you know, it's all right. I'm sorry, it wasn't great, but you know, like it was good practice, and I'm like, oh good. Whereas a lot of people, particularly obsessed with recovery, is oh, I was anxious at the meal, I'm like 30% better. I and I'm never gonna get better. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

This is a skill that we keep developing. Yeah, what does that mean? How did what does that mean for my recovery that that happened?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:27

People will ask me, like, how did you know you were recovered? And one of the these are such cheeky answers. Listen to me using British language. But like, because sometimes one of the things I'll say is, Well, I I kind of recognize that I was because I noticed that I wasn't asking anymore.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

Yes. I don't do you ever wake up, Drew, and go, I'm am I recovered yet? No.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

No, I never wake up and think, Am I am I still recovered? Never. Like, that's not a question. And so, as I've said often about other thoughts and fears and symptoms and stuff that come along with anxiety disorders, you think that you're trying to find the the answer, is my heart okay? Or is am I breathing okay? Or am I going to hurt my family when I have these harm thoughts? And what you don't get the answer to that question, you learn as you improve that that was never a question that you had to ask. And the same is true for am I recovered? Am I recovering? That's you'll just thought that I have to ask that question.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

So when people ask me, I don't even need to ask that question.

SPEAKER_04 21:23

I will often say, that's not a question. That's actually not the right question. Let's talk about what prompted you to ask that question. Oh, I'm having thoughts, or I'm so I feel so afraid today. Okay, well, let's work on that part. So, like, what's going on right now? I'm having a lot of scary thoughts, or I don't know, I'm this new symptom has come up. I suddenly have air hunger. Okay, fine. Well, this isn't about asking if you're recovering. What are you supposed to do with this? Let's come back to what's happening now and what do you think the path forward should be for you? Ah, different.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

Recovery is when you've taught the brain that anxiety is not important. Yeah, it's not a thing that you have to revolve around. So if you're asking the question all day, every day. Am I recovered? Is that teaching the brain that anxiety is not important? Yeah. No, it's doing the opposite. It's saying, Oh yeah, crap, anxiety is really important. Now, don't get me wrong, I've been there, you know, couldn't leave the house, been into AE with panic attacks, stuff like that. I get it. It is, it will feel important, but we talk about things from the other side where we turn down the knobs where things feel okay again. And it's yeah, me even asking this, yes, I'm pulled into that. Oh, I'm doing something about it. I'm I'm working on myself, and that's great. It's a great trait. You want to work on yourself. What we're saying is if you're asking that, that's still teaching the brain that secondary fear is important and it's something we must monitor, obsess, and fear, and particularly those with acute recovery OCD.

SPEAKER_04 22:51

Yeah. So if we're using OCD as the framework here, because we can, because it's our podcast, then you know how do you treat OCD? Well, you let the the discomfort, the obsession get triggered, the the associated anxiety, uncertainty, doubt, discomfort. And then what do we not do? We don't respond to that. Res ERP, response prevention. Prevention. Okay. So what are the rituals or responses that you see really common if you said, hey, that person has recovery OCD, which is not a diagnosis. Again, we'll just say it, but like this person is fixated and obsessed with their with the recovery process and it's hurting them. What are the rituals and the and the responses and the and the compulsions that you see? What are they gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 23:31

They will check. Just like someone would check a lock, check the oven, check a plug, check if they've recovered. Absolutely. I genuinely think it's a thing. I will check to see if I'm recovered. What does that even mean? Can you conceptualize your entire recovery by checking to see how you feel? If you already feel compelled to check how you feel, you ain't gonna feel relaxed.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

You're gonna get a bad answer when you check to see how you feel.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Yeah, yeah. Um, you will compare, you'll analyze, you'll ruminate. Well, I was well, I was wasn't anxious yesterday, but I'm anxious today, but and I was more anxious, you know, a week ago, but then I was less anxious. And then suddenly you're you're you're obsessing about recovery, and all this is just feeding back messages to the brain that how you feel is important in relation to your anxiety disorder. You know, you think you've you've gone to the drawing board, you think you're going, oh yeah, that that's that there, and and yeah, no. Recovery is how well are you with uncertain. So the e the RP for this type of O C D would be, you know, am I recovered yet? What if I'm not recovered? What if I am recovered? Whatever, where am I at? And the RP would be well, I'm uncertain, and that's what I'm practicing.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

I don't know. I I don't know. Yeah, I mean I can look back when I'm not trigging and be like, do you know what? I'm pretty confident in my anxiety now, so there we go. But still, I'm not gonna I never put a shiny label on it, like bang. You know, just like yeah, I don't whatever, you know. I will get anxious again. I was anxious this morning, yeah, had heart palpitations, you know. I've just remembered it then, you know. But if but I can see how people's brains would go, yeah, but oh my god, that means you're not recovered. Well kind of like my willingness to be with the heart palpitations was the recovery, the the doubt, the uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

All it really meant is that you had the horror of an hour with me coming up. Why wouldn't anybody connect in the end? I think the other like recovery, oh, the horror of an hour, speaking of that dude in New York, but uh the other compulsions that I see that people will engage in when they they get fixated, they have recovery OCD, if we're gonna call it that. Then they go back to compulsive consuming. So part of the checking, sometimes it's just mental. I'm I'm mentally measuring, like Josh was saying, sometimes you can see it because, like, oh, I gotta go back and listen to the podcast again. People ask me that one all the time. What episode should I go back and listen to? None, none of the episodes. Tell me what you think you're gonna hear, and invariably they'll be able to hear to say, I'm gonna hear about willful tolerance, I'm gonna hear about surrender, I'm gonna hear about everyone's okay. Then you don't need to listen. Like that, don't listen and see what happens. Go do something more moving.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

What if I've missed something? Right, exactly. I need what if there's another moron with a microphone who's gonna tell me the secret thing so I don't have to feel things I don't like.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

Yep, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

I'm getting that's part of recovery OCD as well. Am I doing recovery right? Yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Oh gosh, if you ask yourself that, just say yeah, I am, or you can go back and reread the books again, or you rewatch the videos, or you listen to this podcast, or The Anxious Truth, or whatever, or any other podcast. You can go back and review, or you start looking for more resources, or I wish I have had people will say, I wish the Facebook group was still active. I used to have that Facebook group, and like, I wish it was still active. Well, why? You know, that well, I'm in a setback right now. Yeah, I know. And like the best thing to do is to go toward your life, not back toward the Facebook group. That's not what you want to do.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

I'd I'd love a community where it's just people sharing how much they don't care about things. Right? Just be like, you know, my my brain this morning was telling me I was going to hurt a loved one, but you know what? Yeah, just kind of just kind of put a movie on and enjoyed that. I love that. Just a community where it's just that. Like my anxiety is screaming at me, and this is what I did in instead. Just like one huge collection of did it anyways.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

It could be the I don't care for them. Somebody should invent an app like that or a community like that. Oh, I'd love that. Should we do it? That'd be awesome. Should we do that? Yeah, but that would be the best thing.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

But the rule one, but what about no? Nope. There's no whatabouts.

SPEAKER_04 27:49

We used to joke about my Facebook group when it was active. Josh would say it had snipers on the roofs. Yeah, that's because that we would not ever allow that stuff. Like, but what about when uh-uh, nope, there's like 10,000 posts. Go read about that symptom. You're gonna get your answer already. We're not gonna talk about it again. Or yeah, but yeah, but what did you do with your symptoms?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Right, that's exactly right. I felt DPDR today. I felt like I was in another reality in a dimension. My voice sounded like not mine. Yeah, um, but then I went and played table tennis. Oh, yeah, I love that. Dissociated table tennis.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Oh, that could be a thing. That could be an Olympic sport. That's gonna be 2028. Dissociated table tennis gold medal was you know, the Croatians win or something.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

I I want to read a Did It Anyway. Do you want to hear it? Yeah, of course I do. Why wouldn't I? Uh they didn't state that we I could use their name, but here we go. Um, also, I'm gonna pull you up at the end of this one. Sorry, uh, did it anyway sender inner. Um, hi guys. I just really wanted to share a hopefully inspiring Did It Anyway story because I remember what it was like at the beginning of this journey, finding it extremely hard to believe there was everything everything going to be anyway out of the depths of despair. Just seven short months ago, I developed panic disorder, which seemed to come out of nowhere. An extremely traumatic year in retrospect, and what triggered it. It took me a while to work out that that was the issue, but once I realized and accepted it, it was anxiety fueling all my problems, and I found your podcast, I was determined to get my life back. For reference, as often when I share how I healed, people assume I wasn't that bad. The panic disorder was so extreme I couldn't eat without retching. I had nausea and diarrhoea all day, every day. She must have listened to the anxious truth, and felt like constant panic and panic attacks. I couldn't sit still, I would walk the streets all day crying and panicking about nothing in particular. I felt overwhelming terror running through my body, I had to stop working, and I couldn't care for my kids. I initially would crash out into a coma at nighttime, but soon I developed severe insomnia where I wouldn't sleep a wink for days and days on end. I mean, you sound like you're having fun, are you? I lost a lot of weight and become skeletal. The only way out to to me seemed like ending my life, and I begged my husband to let me do it on a daily basis. Wow. After finding your podcast, there was hope for healing. It was the least natural thing in the world to take the anxiety and do it anyway, but I did. I made the decision not to let anxiety control me anymore. Trust me, it wasn't easy, but within six weeks, I was back at work full-time parenting my kids, eating and enjoying in brackets, food I was sure I had developed serious allergies to, and I stopped Googling, is this cancer? I now consider myself mostly healed, I'm back to a healthy weight, living a normal life, and I've really gone for it with a massive exposure, and I'm currently pregnant. Thank you so much, guys.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Wow. That is somebody who has been through it.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Yeah. Do you know when you said you needed to hear did it anyway today? I needed to hear that one. That was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

Yeah. You know what? I love the part when this person says, when I when people see that I'm better, or healed or whatever word you want to use, they just assume oh, well, you weren't, you didn't have it as bad as me.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Oh, you went to the depths.

SPEAKER_04 31:25

That's another one of those like recovery OCD or recovery fixation. But I got to compare myself to other people's situation. No, were you exactly like me? No. Well, then you weren't as bad as me, and I and I'm not doing it right.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Yeah, the OCD wants the 100% certainty. This person 100% went through it, man. No joke. I've been at the depths, I've been there, I've hit those depths many years ago. Yeah. And I think that's wonderful. I just think it's really good. And congratulations on the pregnancy. And congratulations just to you for going back to work and turning that stuff around. I think that's brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 31:57

And when that person says it is the most unnatural thing to do, correct. This is why everything we say is such a hard sell sometimes. It seems like the right thing to do to try to control all that. I need to control this, I need to fix it, I need to heal so my body doesn't make these symptoms anymore. But, like, actually, no, that's not working for you. So good job recognizing that for sure. But uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

Let's do another one. Um, I'll read I'll read this one. Um, hi Drew and Joshua. I guess she calls you Joshua. My name is Mika. Uh, you can use my name on the podcast if you would like. I wanted to share, I did it anyway, I had today. So my story is that I had started having panic attacks in July of 2025, not too long ago. Ever since it's been hard with my anxiety, but I'm trying to get the help that I need. Well, today my husband wanted to go to a Pokemon card show, and he was really excited. I was super anxious, not knowing how I was going to feel, but I wanted to go to have fun with him anyway, and I said, screw it, let's go. We went and it was crowded. I was already feeling my heart palpitations, and I also have DPDR, but I took my time and I actually had a lot of fun with all the interactions we made. I knew anxiety was there, but didn't try to fight it. And the result was I had fun with the person who has been there for me through everything. So that's my little win for the day. I appreciate that all you guys do on your podcast. Take care. Oh, little win.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Little yeah, that's not a little win at all. Crazy, man. That was really good. I love that. Yeah, I love it. Have you ever owned a Pokemon card?

SPEAKER_04 33:22

I have never owned a Pokemon card, I admit. What the hell?

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I remember my first ever Pokemon shiny. It was in the first pack I ever got when I was nine years old, and it was a Vaporeon blue shiny. I wonder if I've still got it somewhere. I wonder if it's worth anything. It's old. Highly impactful, clearly. I'm 36 and I got that when I was nine. That Pokemon card is 25 years old. Look for it. Maybe it is. Yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Yeah, if you're listening to Mika, let us know. Like, should Josh be looking for that card? Should he be tearing his house apart? Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

It's worth 13 bucks.

SPEAKER_04 34:00

You know what was great in this story was the value we talked about values, right? So if I'm obsessed with my recovery and I want to make everything about like the process of recovery and doing it right, remember what's important to you and go toward that instead. Yeah, you're gonna say recovery is important to me. No, no, no, no, no. The process of life, like what's important to you in life, not if I am I doing avoidance and surrender correctly today. She wanted to hang out with her husband. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

I need to do avoidance and surrender correctly before I can go and do that. No, no, no, no, no. You're falling into that trap. No, go and go and yeah, I love I love that. DPDR, scared. Oh, I'm just gonna go to the Pokemon convention. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 34:38

Yeah, you got to do life. Sometimes we get we uh and along the lines of recovery OCD or fixation recovery, near the when I wrote The Anxious Truth near the end of that book, which by the way desperately needs a second edition. I know. Give me a break. I wrote it five years ago and a lot more now, but uh I wrote like recovery is life and life is recovery. I did use the word recovery all through the book. Like people get, especially when they're obsessed with recovery, they think they have to recover so they can live. It's the other way. Like you want to try to jump.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Is that gonna be on your tombstone? You cheesy get.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

It should totally be. Why am I not selling merch with that on that?

SPEAKER_02 35:10

But like you die before me. I'm gonna I'm gonna specifically say his last breath was he wanted regulators emblazoned on his tombstone.

SPEAKER_04 35:18

I won't have an eternal flame, I'll just have a an eternal loop of warranty. Every time somebody walks like a cheesy car alarm, if you walk past my tombstone, you're getting that. Regulator.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

I like the idea of having that on my tombstone. Just I have finally regulated. And just and just my corpse is six feet down.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Joshua Fletcher, regulated. It won't even have regulated. That's it. Oh my goodness. Wow, that got dark really fast. Oh my god. Should we do another audio did it anyway? Might as well. We got a cue done. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, let's celebrate a win.

unknown 35:54

Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Hi, Justin True. This is Alex. You can use my name. I just wanted to share a did it anyway, or I guess uh currently doing it anyway. I uh had to do my annual uh blood tests and uh I got it done. I was gonna procrastinate because um I'm actually a uh healthcare provider physician, so uh health anxiety and generalized uh generalized anxiety is um something that I struggle with. So um haven't gotten the results yet, and um, you know, uh trying to tell myself or being like, hey, uh even if it is abnormal, um it's okay. Um and we'll figure it out, take it one day and one step at a time. Currently not feeling that great right now while I'm at work because just a lot of feelings and uncertainty. But um, yeah, just wanted to share that uh still uh doing it anyway, uh in the midst of the uncomfortable feeling. Uh thanks for all that you guys do, man. God bless you guys and your family. Take care.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

Go, Alex. That was really good, Alex. You love it when the we're in the even if business. You often say that, don't you? I'm a huge fan of even if. Even if. Yeah, I like that. I like well done, Alex, because yeah, and he's sitting. The topic today is it's not am I recovered, it's how willing am I to be how willing am I to be with uncertainty? And where's my skill of that? And Alex has shown that really well. I'm showing that I'm okay with it. He's not saying there say, Oh, I'm sat here, I'm really happy, you know, I'm just there's just joy and euphoria. No, I'm actually sitting in real uncertainty, uncertainty, and I'm practicing with that, and that's why it's beautiful. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

He could have got trapped in the why am I still worried about this? Like, what am I doing wrong? How come I'm still triggered by this? Well, because it's your health, and and you want to be healthy. Everybody wants to be healthy. So good job staying out of the track. Good job, Alex, and thanks for sharing. Appreciate it. What else we got on this?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

So, recovery OCD. So, for those particularly that are obsessed, and and by the way, there's some compassionate response to this. Of course, you would be. You're bombarded with so much information, conflicting information, different ways of seeing things. And so, of course, you'd want to forage around feeling uncertain. Of course, you'd want to find the answer and and be okay. But I think what you need to realize, and what I would uh invite people to reflect on is that I think you're more well than you think. You know, don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing your feelings, and life's been tricky. Not more well, you're more capable than you think. And I think I think a lot of recovery is finally getting in touch and realizing that oh wow, I was way more capable than what I thought, even through those through those periods of doubt. And it's way more worth, way more worth, way more worth. Sounds like a private schoolboy, but it's way more worth pouring all of your attention on seeing your tolerance, your distress tolerance skills, than it is asking yourself countlessly, am I recovered yet? Am I recovered yet?

SPEAKER_04 39:14

I agree. Uh practical tips. Be careful of the comparison engine. So, like, and especially in the social media era, I know we talk about a lot of a lot of this lately. I talk about it a lot lately, but like be careful about consuming content where the content is look at my best life being lived. Look, I got better. You can be like this too, because your brain will a hundred percent start to compare. And if you are compulsively recovering, you have this recovery OCD that we're sort of alluding to here. Again, not an official diagnosis, but I might have to stop that's not helping you. If all you're seeing is like, look at me spinning around in a field full of sunflowers because I'm much better, and you can be like this too if you be like me. That content is feeding right in, right into recovery OCD.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

We should should we should do this app where like this is what recovery looks like, and it will just be you and I, and anyone else who wants to join, just doing really boring menial things. That's a hundred percent what it looks. This is what recovery looks like, and it's just me like hanging up my trousers.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't look like you know, so you have to be really careful because often we it's portrayed in the scroll. And and listen, I we write books, we do sell books, that's true. We have workshops and stuff, we do sell those things, but we try we be we're we be. Listen to me, my my grammar is off there else today, too. But we're always really careful about overpromising. And I think the social media environment can feed recovery OCD by promising a state, especially a state of happiness or joy, or like, yeah, every once in a while, I'm sure that you're super happy and joyful.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

I this morning I don't feel like sunflower girl. I must be doing something wrong.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

That that's exactly right. That's what my recovery has to look like. That's what it will look like when I get better. So I'll keep asking why doesn't it look like that? I don't recover recovery.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

Sometimes is me going like sometimes I get DPD when the child, like, whoa, this is funky. It's still recovery, just whatever. I mean, like, whoa.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

Honestly, you know, if you really want to know what recovery looks like, it looks like a person who never has to show recovery. Like a person that's truly recovered is not on social media posting about their recovery and what it looks like all day long. That's not what it looks like. I don't, I'm not out there telling everybody that I meet that I'm so much better and like I'm living my best life because that's you don't need to do that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

So that's why I do like that Paul David guy. Like he wrote that book. Wrote a book just like I'm just uh just like hiking.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

Yeah, I mean I don't need to talk about this anymore. I would think I love that. That's pretty nice.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Just like all right, I've been there, right? I'm I'm back off. I'm all done. Here, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

You can read this book if you want, but I'll be out there like doing life. I ain't gotta talk, I don't need to talk about that. I'm recovered anymore.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

So he's not arrogant and egocentric enough to create a podcast about it.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Not just one, two. I got two. What does it say about me? I was ripping myself.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

I was ripping myself.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Well, both of us, but you know, I got two podcasts. Like Paul David is silently judging me right now. No, he's not because he's not listening. He's like the Omni.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

He's not listening, he's not obsessed with recovery.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

Oh man. It's you know what? It could be super easy to get caught up in this. We're making a lot of jokes, but that that being nice to yourself. I like to tell or suggest that people tell. I like to suggest that people try to land on this. I'm having a lot of thoughts and emotions right now about something that's really important to me. Because that's true. That's actually accurate. Am I recovered? Am I doing it right? Did I do it right? Did I avoid today? Wait a minute. What's actually happening right now? I'm having a lot of thoughts and associated emotions and feelings and worries about something that's important to me. Okay, cool. Now what? Should I try to actually answer them or should I go and do the best I can while I'm uncertain, doubtful, and worried? Pick the second one. Spoiler alert. Yeah, I think we should leave it at that. I I think so too. That's lovely. All right, there you go. What else we got? Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Thank you, Drew. No good. No, I'm all good. I'm looking forward to doing the next episode. Uh, thank you for tuning in, as always. And um, if you'd like to leave a voice note or a message, you can do that at disordered.fm. Sign up to the newsletter if you want to hear about any impending good news, which we have. We've got a book coming out, and I think we should get this app done. That'll be amazing. Yeah, if you want to come join a disordered app community, that'd be awesome. Just the most boring updates ever. I'm recovered, you know, and I'm just like literally just planting flowers, just buying a sausage roll.

SPEAKER_04 43:36

Doing the laundry. That's exactly what it looks like. Yeah, that's what we're gonna build. That is what we're we could say it. Like, if you want to know more about that, that is what we're making. It's the anti-community community.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

So we'd love to have the anti-community community, only boring posts allowed on really good did it. How could it be to just have a thread of did it anyways? Yeah, just just like just you can just post it whenever you want, and then everyone can enjoy it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:56

What he said, just cheering for each other and like going to do in life. That's what we're looking for. So, anyway, yeah. Um, we'll be back next week. Thanks for all the reviews, by the way, on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Like, if you want to leave one of those, that's awesome. But otherwise, just come back next week and hear us prattle on about crap again.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

Yeah, all good, guys.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Catch you soon. See ya,