Anxiety Recovery: Is Distraction A Good Plan? (Episode 021)

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Often they'll hear people like you and I say, Well, we shouldn't use distraction as a primary strategy. But but I'm distracting. Aren't I distracting? Aren't I supposed to just be completely still and sit and allow my anxiety to consume me? If I do anything else, isn't that distraction?

SPEAKER_00 0:15

The biggest rule in my practice is anything but rumination, ABR. And if distraction is one step above that.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

I always like to bring it back to the intent. If you're doing it to run away from the panic attack or to blot it out or to put a fire hose on the fire, eh, maybe not so great.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Positive distraction can be reframed as I'm choosing to focus on something else that isn't compulsively checking and scanning myself and ruminating.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Let me just pay attention to something else because I can. You get to pick what you do. Just don't do it with the intent of rescuing yourself or getting away from it or running from it.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. Today's episode title is But Isn't That Distraction? My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety disorders. I'm also a previous sufferer. I'm based in Manchester in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

And I am Drew Lyncelada, co-host of Disordered. I'm a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling. I am on en route to being a licensed therapist here in the state of New York in the US. And I'm an author and a podcaster on anxiety disorders and also a former sufferer. Sufferer. It was so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

It was fun. I highly recommend it.

SPEAKER_01 1:28

10 out of 10, would not repeat.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Interesting though, I wouldn't regret, I don't regret having my anxiety disorders. No, I mean I would do it all again. Yeah. Yeah. I changed as a person. Yep. Become more empathetic, more compassionate, more emotionally wise. Oh, yeah. Um, and and and it actually kind of took me out of my this the irony is it's such a consuming condition that makes you very selfish and self-centered, but actually going through it turns you into a a less selfish person. You get so bored with being consumed with the self, yeah, that anything outside of you becomes more interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

It's a hundred that is such a good that was a great boom. We're starting off on fire in this episode. It's not about that, but that's a great statement. It's true. Yeah, I just had a coffee actually. I think it was that. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah, yeah. That was all right. It's sometimes come up with some some all right stuff. And actually ties in nicely to, but isn't that distraction? What actually what's interesting is that anxiety disorders are a distraction, they're a distraction from living your life. So let's fight one with the other. Distraction, distraction. What do we mean by that title, Drew? But isn't that distraction? What's the purpose behind that title?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Well, I I think uh people ask that question. I know you hear it, I hear it. And people get a little nervous because often they'll hear people like you and I say, Well, we shouldn't use distraction as a primary strategy here, which is an avoidance strategy that says, I must get away from this, so I will go and do a crossword puzzle or talk to my my mom on the phone or something to distract myself to get away from it. I need to get away from it. And so when they wind up like doing things while they're anxious, if they do try to do a crossword puzzle, let's see if they can do it. But but I'm distracting. Aren't I distracting? Aren't I supposed to just be completely still and sit and allow my anxiety to consume me? If I do anything else, isn't that distraction? They get confused. And I understand why I do.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, it's great. I distraction gets a bad rep. It does distraction. It actually works. I say it all the time. It works. I love distraction. Um, I think it's great. If it's compulsive, and this will tie in to the episode Attitudinal Shift. My uh the attitude shift, and it's quickly becoming a core episode here.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

So many around it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

And if you've not heard that episode, go listen to it. Um, or just listen to the whole thing if you can tolerate uh voices. Um I need to be distracted from these guys, yeah. Uh you know, self-righteous, self-aggrandizing pontifications and burning my ears. Um, but this is what I hear a lot. Isn't that distraction? I love distraction. The the biggest rule in my practice is anything but rumination, anything but inwards focus, um, compulsive inwards focus. It's okay to be inwards focus if you want to be reflective and you know that's different. But in general, in states of high anxiety, disordered anxiety, anything but rumination, ABR, and if distraction is one step above that. Yeah, I so I'm like, yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah, we could uh you know, you almost can't not use distraction. It's it's almost part of everything we do in a way to a certain extent. I always like to bring it back to the intent. Like, what's the intent? If you want to go and try to take a you know, go for a run while you're having a panic attack, go for it. What is your intention there? Well, I want to run because it's good for me. I want to show myself that I can handle running during a panic attack. If you're doing it to run away from the panic attack or to to blot it out or to put a fire hose on the fire, maybe not so great. So it's the intention, that's all. But in the end, you almost can't not distract. If you do anything but sit there quietly and ruminate, you're you're you're engaging in some form of distraction.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Yeah. You could and and yeah, a lot of people get it like let's let's explore the origins of that. Because for me, I I we we love distracting. I would we agree we're on there. We we love distraction. Positive distraction it can be reframed as I'm choosing to focus on something else that isn't compulsively checking and scanning myself and ruminating.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

That paying attention. I'm gonna pay attention to something else.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

Yeah, I'm gonna pay attention. Yeah, unfortunately, this comes at odds and con in comes into conflict with the kind of very body-centric, non-disordered anxiety, mindfulness-based spot um crowd. Um, don't get wrong, I like mindfulness, but you know, when it's very body-centric, um that kind of clashes. So there's a lot of people who are like, hmm, where do you where do you sense it in the body? Uh sit with it, stuff like that. We I don't never kind of I'm not a proponent of the sit with it stuff. I'm like, no, leave it alone. Yeah, you know, just don't sit with it, get on with your day. Why would you sit with something that's annoying? You know, there's a wasp trying to sting me, you know, sit with there's a there's a rabid dog trying to chew my foot. Well, just sit with it. No, I'm just gonna walk away. I don't, I'm not interested in the rabid dog. I'm not gonna run away. I'm just like, whatever. You know, just I don't that I'm not interested in this. I'm gonna distract myself, you know. Perhaps I'm late up late at night trying to play the Xbox, and I can hear my parents fornicating in the room next door. I'm gonna choose to distract myself because what's the benefit of right? No, no, that but you're right.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

I mean, we're we're making a joke, but you're right. What would be the benefit of focusing in that? What would be the benefit of just focusing in on your panic? So I I think that sit-with it advice, or don't avoid and don't run and don't try to get what so what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to just sit and feel it? Am I supposed to do something else? Should I just, you know, I I understand why it's so confusing. It's okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

But I think some of this is just gonna you're gonna audit myself with horrendous intrusive thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

It'll just be me for the rest of the episode because Josh has to go lay down now. But uh I I think in the end, uh intent paying attention. Let me just pay attention to something else because I can. And I think the main thing to remember about distraction is it's never a rescue tool. Just like mindfulness and grounding are not supposed to be rescue tools. Sitting with it is not a rescue tool. Sitting with it isn't always literal. If you happen to be sitting quietly and reading a book and you start to experience high anxiety, then keep sitting and reading your book. That's fine. It doesn't mean you have to jump up and go do something else. But or you may choose to do something else. Like you get to pick what you do, just don't do it with the intent of rescuing yourself or getting away from it or running from it.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Yeah. But isn't isn't that distraction? It's a lot of people see that as a form of failure. Like that I shouldn't be doing it. I'm distracting myself from the problem. Yeah. You are distracting yourself from something that feels like a problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, and but but fair enough. And then even if it is distraction, what did you learn from it? That's even fine. If you want to say it's distraction or this, I shouldn't do that. Well, what did you learn from it? I learned that if I put my attention on something else, what was super urgent three minutes ago is no longer consequential to me. What does that tell you about that urgency? It was nonsense.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Uh and is this why when people are busy or at work or or they're consumed by an activity, or you know, when their attention is utterly external, yeah, and not only utterly external, but engaged, people's anxieties are lower. Yeah, there's there's no coincidence in that.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I also think it's a reasonable explanation for why a story I'm guessing you hear too. Like you have a very anxious person who's struggling, and something happens, actually happens. Maybe, oh, my son fell off his bicycle, he broke his ankle, we had to take him to the emergency room. Amazingly, I had I was fine. Yeah, because you were literally focused on your son and the ER and getting the cast and the x-rays. You weren't inside yourself all the time. And then often they'll say, like, yeah, but then when I got home, I had a huge panic attack. Yeah, because you went back inside. So that tells you that attention outside of your internal urgency works and it says something about your internal urgency.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

So absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

What do we learn from that?

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah, we've learned that, yeah, when my attention is external, yeah, my threat response calms down. Obviously, due to habit and due to fear, and it takes practice because if you've had an anxiety disorder for a while, those neuropathways are you know, they're pretty strong. But what's great is because our brain is very neuroplastic, we can, you know, change habits uh and associations um with anxiety. And usually the difficulty is when we're sat still and doing things, yeah, you know, um when can distraction be um a wrong word, a hindering thing?

SPEAKER_01 10:04

Um I'm gonna keep repeating the word intent, I think, is part of it. And when sometimes an artificial, but first of all, almost all the distraction is gonna be artificial. So if you're in the midst of an anxiety spike or a storm of intrusive thoughts or whatever it happens to be, and you choose to do something else, it's a little bit artificial because at that moment, all you want to do is ruminate on the thoughts and dig into it and protect yourself. But the real artificial distraction is snap a rubber band. Grab uh grab your lavender oil and you know, sniff it really hard, like that, whatever it happens to be. I know I I joke about lavender oil all the time, but those are really art. That is not a thing you would normally do in your life. So that says I will distract myself with the pain of a really thick rubber band, but that's not something you would do in your life.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Never do that. Don't do that, proven to have the opposite effect, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:51

The ice, you know, ice and my ice pack crew, man. A distraction, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

So no, so so common on social media that you've got you've got literal qualified therapists saying put ice packs on your hands. Yeah, what are you doing, therapy guys? Come on, that's a compulsive safety behavior.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Um, you stop teaching people that's a distraction, and but and I think we could call that an air quotes bad distraction because it's not something you would normally do. A more productive distraction or refocus of attention or or paying attention somewhere else would be what would you what would you like to do in your life right now? I'd like to listen to this song that I like. Give it a shot, go for it. That's a real thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

This just comes to me now. There's something to the it's an immediate forced distraction as opposed to a willing, rational distraction. So, like, you know, immediate and forced is I need to get my ice cubes, I need to split, I need to dunk my face in water. Yep. Um, I need to do my tapping thing straight away. Uh, I need to do all these things because it's immediate and it's forced. You're f you're almost forcing yourself to do it because you don't that distraction to become a thing because you want it to have immediate effects. Right. This is an immediate distraction for because for the want of immediate results. Whereas actually a distraction is this adrenaline cortisol's triggered, I'm pretty stressed. This is gonna last at least five minutes. What can I do whilst it's whilst it's kicked off, you know? Maybe I can semi-engage with a TV show, maybe I can turn on my computer, maybe I can play with my son for a little bit. You know, maybe I can take my daughter to soccer or whatever. Um, but done minus the immediacy, um, as opposed to oh, I'm feeling anxious, quick, I better get to the gym and you know have an outlet for my adrenaline. Yeah, no, that's that's the wrong type of distraction.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, I would agree. And again, what what are you trying to accomplish in this situation if I'm going to choose to pay attention to something else or distract, if you want to use that word, which is fine. I'm doing it to show myself that I'm capable of doing that while I feel all these things and think all these things, not to stop feeling and stop thinking. If you can make that differentiation, then while instead of to stop, I'm gonna take it with me while I distract. Okay, cool. Then go for it. Pick whatever activity you want. And that activity could be laying quietly in bed and just breathing because it's the middle of the night and you had a nocturnal panic attack. Maybe you get up if you want to, great. Maybe you want to try and lay there and just breathe and focus on your breathing, not to make it go away, just to know that you can give a shot.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely agree with that too.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Um, yeah, so like there's a difference. If you're walking through the park, that's doing something, and the intention of that is a distraction. But again, back to focus. Where's your focus? You know, um, I think it's great to distract yourself or channel your focus into, you know, how many different trees can I see? How many types of flowers can I see? Um, you know, what smells can I see? Where does this path lead to? You know, where can I feel the breeze on me? Um you're almost kind of distracting yourself a little bit there, or that's also being called being mindful, sure. But distracting from the sense of I don't need to be internal now. You know, a lot of people do this, and I found this in in our community is that people judge what they're doing from the outside. Like, I went to the park and I'm still anxious. I went to the do the do this and I'm still anxious. Where yeah, but where how much of your attention was engaged in the park? You know, how much of it was engaged at the theater, how much of it was external. And a lot of the time it comes down to actually, yeah, I was walking through the park constantly monitoring how I felt, uh white knuckling and just hoping that the anxiety would magically disappear because this is my exposure. Right. Well, yeah, you did half your exposure, well done, but the other half is you know, how many things, you know, how well can I do to engage in my environment? And I always say to people in here, if you can engage 51%, then you've done it.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Winning, right. And the win, and this is gonna like tie into our did it anyway for this week, uh, did it anyway for this week, is it the winning is in the repetition. Even in any given, and I'm not talking about repetition from day to day and week to week, that's true, but even in that one episode. So if you are walking in the park and panic hits you, or whatever, you have that that that OCD thought pops up and you're triggered by it. If you have to continually refocus on the trees and the birds and and the friend that you're walking with or your dog, that's the win. It's the refocus and the practice again and again and again.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Yes, 100%. That is so important. It's the continual refocusing, the pulling back. Because a lot of people, and again, our friend Craig, what would he say? What would he say? You go to the park and I've listened to disordered. What would Craig the critic say as soon as we compulsively start checking in again?

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Yeah, he would say it's not working. See? Like, you know, you're you've you're doing it wrong. Uh what I hear all the time is like, I tried to, I tried to pay attention to my dog, but but I but I kept going back to the thoughts. I kept, it's okay. Like, that's going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

That's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

That's gonna happen. Expect it to happen. Don't see that as failure. There's no like attention switch where you just say, dog, a hundred percent. It's not gonna happen. It would, it takes a long time to get to that. I don't even get to that.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Reminds me of the stretch armstrong. Do you remember? Do you have stretch stretch armstrong? I had that. Yeah, yeah, stretch armstrong. It's like you know, there's always that kid that managed to stretch him from like around the globe. Uh, you know, and I was always jealous of it, but he didn't do it straight away because it was really strong, right? So, what you do is a little bit at a time is that you stretch it, let it go, stretch it, stretch it, stretch it. It's the same, like in the sense that you're gonna get resistance, you're gonna get habit that pulls you back, yep. But the win is focusing out again, and you're stretching it a little bit more, and a little bit more. And next thing you know, you've got this horrendous looking thing that looks horrible and phallic and tentacle-like, and it's banned from school, and then their mum doesn't talk to my mom, and it's really heartbreaking because I can't go around for tea anymore. Yeah, um, my brain has gone completely down a weird memory hole. Sorry. I see that.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

That's okay. That's twice.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

But at least I wasn't focusing on my anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

That's true, but but that is the win. So remember that your amygdala is just doing what it's supposed to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:45

Seamless.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

It's I got the button. You know, I can't, I can't say that it's any special skill, but that your amygdala, your threat response center in your brain, threat detection system is just doing what it thinks it's supposed to do. Hey, look at me, look at this thought, look at this sensation, look at this anxiety. This is important, this is important. It's going to do that. The win isn't saying, hey, thanks, but I'm gonna play with my dog for now while you while you keep screaming that I'm about to die.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

And then should we role play? We could totally roll play. Okay, let's do it. We're in the park. Who wants to play good cop and bad? Should I be bad cop and you'll be good cop cop?

SPEAKER_01 18:19

I'm gonna be good cop, I'm never good cop. I'm tired of being bad cop.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Fine, I'll be I'll be bad cop, then you'll be good cop. Uh we set the scene, you're walking through the park, um, and you're anxious, uh, you're a bit agrophobic and stuff, but actually, your main focus is that you're struggling to not focus on the on your feelings because you're scared of it, but you've listened to this podcast, you've given it five stars on Apple and Spotify, and you've walked into the park. What what's good cop saying? What's what's what's compassionate you saying, and I'll be bad cop? A combination of Craig the Critic and just the threat response. I'll be the threat response.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah, yeah, bad cop. So good cop is gonna say, This is amazing. Look at you, you're doing this thing that you didn't think you could do. Well done.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Why are you looking at those trees? You didn't you got a weird sensation in your chest then? Yeah, but that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Let the sensation be there, says Good Cop.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

It's all right, it's okay. Yeah, but what if this is anxiety and something else? You sure keep an eye on it?

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Well, you're never gonna be 100% sure, but let's roll the dice and let's see what happens for just a few minutes. You can do that.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

You sure it's okay to walk far into this park? You know, your legs feel a bit like jelly.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Well, jelly legs are still good legs. That's what Dr. Week said, so let's test that theory. We're capable.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Why are you staring at trees and squirrels? You know, the attention's here. There's a threat here, you know. That's silly. Why are you even distracting yourself? Look at the threat. What if you have a heart attack or something?

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Well, I you know, I really appreciate that you're trying to keep me safe. I get it, but I'm just gonna be over here and I'm gonna try and show you that we are safe. I know you don't get it. Let me show you.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

All right, okay. Take that, but why don't you walk in the shade? It's too bright out here. There's too many sounds and colors.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Well, I'm supposed to walk in the bright light where I get triggered. That's the whole point of doing this, is to teach you the lessons you need to learn.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Okay, you're you're really annoying me now. And just in case that you are dangerous, I'm gonna start messing around with your stomach and your bowels, and I'm gonna make you sweat, I'm gonna make you feel dizzy and lopsided. And guess what? Have some DPDR as well, because I want the attention.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

I know you do. You just think you're doing your job, but you're pissing me off now. So I'm gonna intentionally keep doing what I'm doing, no matter how loud you yell. I'm tired of you dragging me around.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

This is really annoying. Still need to convince him, and I'm running out of fuel. Okay, well, what if I tell you what, you've got children at home, there's high stakes here, and if if if you if something bad happens and you go crazy and you die, and look what you've done there. You know, you've done something reckless and irresponsible.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Well, that would be terrible if that happened, but all the things you predict never seem to happen. So I'm gonna take that chance. How about that? But isn't that just distraction? No, it's me deciding to act with intention toward the thing that I want to do instead of paying attention to you.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Oh now, I'm running out of fuel now, so my adrenaline and cortisol is getting really low. Um, I'll tell you what, I'm gonna go and recharge for a later date. I obviously can't win in the park here, and I can't win when you've got DPDR, but I'll find another way to torture you. Just you wait. I'll be back.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

I'll be back and scene.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And see, oh my god, we're gonna should be Shakespeare Company just called 100%.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

You will find us at the Globe Theater starting next week.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Did that off the cuff as well. That was pretty good. What did that studio audience think?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Oh, they loved it, of course. Clearly, the hundreds of people in the studio audience. Somehow just Hit in the eye with a rose. A rose. The performance was that good. But it's you know, it's a little illustrative of the whole distraction thing. Like, you know, no, I'm gonna distract while while the bad cop here is screaming at me to pay closer attention. I actually really like I know that was off the code.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

We didn't even plan to do that, but that we could we could do a bit a few more of those kind of role-play things to demonstrate other examples.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, so all of those techniques that that maybe I was, you know, as the good cop or or the the wise mind, if you will, was was trying to throw into there was yeah, they could be distraction. I'm gonna play with my dog, I'm gonna look at the trees, I'm gonna pay attention to my walk, I'm gonna pay attention to anything but Josh playing the trigger to mydala. Is that distraction? Yeah, technically probably is, but it's a productive distraction because you note my intent was to learn a lesson and to try and teach my brain a lesson, wasn't to get away from it. Notice at no point that I say, shut up, please be quiet, brain. Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. I'm okay, I'm a warrior. I never said any of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

I find as well a lot with um a lot of anxious people, particularly with disorder anxiety, get stuck with what to do. And even and we've got to be careful. We talk a lot in the past about technique if I be careful that your distraction and your technique don't become the same thing. And so I always hark back to you know, what would non-anxious me be doing right now? And if I've been so anxious for so long, maybe I've just got to kind of guess what non-anxious me would be doing. And you practice with your focus on that, which is really kind of cool. Um, I did that. I used to just practice with my attention until the point when you're fully engaged. Uh, and anxiety can't always have your attention if as long as you give it 51%. Yeah. So, you know, I'm gonna go to the movie theater and give this movie 51% of my attention. I'm not gonna go and get annoyed with myself and wound up because I can't concentrate. I'm not gonna listen to Craig the Critic saying, Oh, you used to watch movies and now you can't, and whatever. No, I'm gonna the intention is set here. I'm going to leave the house where I've been ruminating. Yes, the cinema is a nice welcome distraction, the movie theater, cinema, wherever you are on the side of the Atlantic, wherever you're in the world. Um, and I'm gonna, with intent, give 51% of my attention to this movie. Will I be fully engaged with it? No, no, but by the end of it, I guarantee you you'll be more engaged than when you started.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, and you know, just the same way that you and you did a great job of doing you're like I'm running out of fuel, see they're coming to get him. That's actually police escort to the Globe Theater because you did such a good job as bad cop.

SPEAKER_00 24:41

Is that me? Oh, is that me? Sorry, there's police everywhere. Yeah, uh, because um, yeah, that's sorry.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

It gives it uh it's a realistic thing, you know. It's the look of the mean streets of Manchester. It's all right. What do we want? I think you know, in the end, it's it's when you see that Josh did such a good job, really, no, truthfully, of doing the oh, I'm running out of fuel now. Anxiety kept, you know. So at this point, the amigo saying, I'm running out of fuel, I'm running out of fuel. I don't I'm running out of things to say. That's exactly what it would be. So by the end of that movie, by the end of that film, you'll be exhausting it, you'll be tired from doing it, and you might not always be at 51%. That meter is going to bounce back and forth, but you know, but generally speaking, try for an average of 51% of attention on something else. That's totally fine.

SPEAKER_00 25:24

And the threat response will utilize your thinking brain. It gets desperate, so it will throw all sorts at you for your attention, and it'll also use guilt. How can how can what's some examples of it using guilt for your attention?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

I think you did a great job of of trying to leverage guilt. Like you know, you got kids at home. Do you really want to take this chance? If this really is something this time, how horrible would that be? That was great, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah, and people with again the OCD heads, yeah. So something about obsessive compulsive disorder for some reason. The guilt the guilt is strong with this one. Uh, yeah, just use it's just something that your threat response is using so it gives you your attention. But the stakes are so high here. What if this is true? What if this intrusive thought is true? What if that horrendous thing does happen? Yeah. Um, and I know that ties into a lovely question that we've got, actually, doesn't it? Um It does. What was it again? Oh, you've got it, haven't you?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

I have the question. This is the intrusive thought about something bad happening. You want to go over that now? Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, let's distract ourselves from the topic of distraction. You know what? That involves answering it with the topic of distraction. Shut up, Josh, go on.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Leveraging guilt. Love that. I'll also, by the way, it'll leverage it'll not only leverage your thinking brain and twist what you say, but it'll just make shit up, like whatever it feels like, which is always impressive. Because then that's why you don't want to get into an argument with it. Um, so let's do, I'm sorry, big loud notification sound. Um, let's see here. Oh, I know that what that means. It means I have 10 minutes to be in a call. Um, hi Josh and Drew. You have described intrusive thoughts as those where people think something bad will happen or that they will cause harm to something or someone. Okay. I have thoughts that are quite vivid, a daydream almost, where loved ones are hurt, they have been in a fire, I see them in a hospital, I'm giving them CPR. Is this anxiety? Are these intrusive thoughts? Thank you for what you do.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Oh, yeah. No, they are intrusive thoughts. Remember, thoughts aren't just one kind of image, they can just be in images or they can be um movie reels and very vivid. And yeah, sometimes because the nature of that, what sounds like you know, horrendous intrusive thoughts in in terms of content, yeah. Um, because that's threatening to our livelihood, who we are, uh, because it's important to us, and we only get intrusive thoughts about stuff that's important to us. Um, yeah, you having that attention, your threat response is literally saying, check out this movie in Daydream. It's very common to play through the disaster as well. One, so you can analyze future threats and stuff like that, but also as a coping mechanism. Lots of people have these movies in their head, loved ones dying, stuff like that, and they play through this almost almost fantasy, not fantasy because you won it, but like it's a it's a fantastical land where it's like, well, you know, if the worst ever did happen, can I picture myself coping in this? What would I do? Yeah, what would I do? You know, and so people, it's a very it's a cut, it's actually a coping mechanism that that's quite it's quite healthy, you know, when you play these things through in your head. Um, and yeah, that is anxiety because you didn't like it. It sounds like you didn't like it anyway. You know, you didn't put PS best intrusive thought ever. Highly recommend the you know, the murdering family intrusive thought or whatever it is, the seeing the graphic death of my family intrusive thought. Highly recommend it. Um, no, it sounds like you really hate it, and that's why you've written in. So, yeah, that is anxiety, that is an intrusive thought.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Yeah, I would say the anxiety part of it is the part that maybe it repeats or it gets it seems more important than otherwise, and I'm sure it triggered anxiety for sure. So it's both both probably a sign or symptom of persistent anxiety, and it also triggers more. Even the question itself is this anxiety? Well, as opposed to what? Is it a premonition? Is it a prediction? Is it a wish? So no, it's none of those things, it's just a thought.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

Like, yeah, that's a that's a great question. Uh, I've lost my did it anyway, I'm sure. But uh you've got whatever.

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Anyway, I have a good day anyway we could do. Um let's see here. Hi there. Uh King, not gonna say your name. If you send us stuff in at disorder.fm, if you want us to say your name, tell us. Otherwise, we won't do that. Um, so hi there, here's my did it anyway. I needed to sit in on a town select board hearing via Zoom. I was unprepared for the waves of anxiety that came over me as soon as the meeting began. I started shaking and my fingertips went numb. I also didn't know that I was gonna have to participate in the meeting by sharing an experience that I had. In spite of the shaking and the knot in my stomach, I raised my hand and said my piece when I was called upon to do so. I did great. Even better, later that night when I was trying to sleep, my mind kept wanting to go back over everything. Every time I noticed my brain going back there, I noticed it, I labeled it, and I brought my attention back to the present moment. I'm very proud of myself for these words. It's huge.

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Well, lovely did any it ties in. It does to the to the episode. Um I mean, we've planned this, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

But yeah, but you know, before when we talked about the win as the repetition in the practice, this is exactly that. You know, it's not like that she lost because her brain was going back to ruminating. No, she recognized it and then went back to, you know, hey, that's okay. I recognize that I'm gonna redirect back to the present. That's the win, the practice.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Amazing. Yes, I love that because yeah, you that that you're using and you broke down what it is you did. You know, uh, I think that's brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Oh, I've got one did it anyway, it's just a short one. Yep. Uh, I have a form of contamination OCD. Um, at the weekend, I allowed my friend to buy me a glass of wine whilst I looked out the window because I used to compulsively check, monitor, and insist that the new bottle of wine be opened just in case um it was contaminated in some way. Um and yeah, I bought it and I drank it and I was anxious for a bit, but I let it pass. I love stuff like that because you know, and usually, you know, contamination OCD is gonna be quite consuming. You're like, no, I'm leaning into the uncertainty here. Very brave. Um, well done.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Well done. I would have to add well done. I recognize that I know what that feels like. I used to have to do that. I'm gonna have to open the orange juice and be the first one to drink out of it, even though my brain is screaming that it's probably been poisoned. So I've done that. Really good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

Obviously, be careful on night out, don't just you know have you drink about it. There are there are idiots knocking about, but in general, you know, when you when it's just you and your partner, you know, the person you're with and an empty bar, and you know, come on, you're allowed to allow some kind of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Great job, very well done.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Absolutely love that. It's always a pleasure, Drew. Um, as oh, last time we I asked if there was um all the people in the UK or European uh Apple reviews, uh we caught up to you by 10. So um no way get some Apple reviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely US versus the rest of the world uh and reviews. What's new? I think you're I think you're on like a hundred and something. We're up to 45, I think. Uh so we'll try and get some reviews. Um if if you've got a spare moment, we'd love a review on Spotify or Apple or whatever it is you listen to. Really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

Yeah, yeah. You know what? Let's keep it proportional to population. How's that? You're never gonna catch us because we just got a lot of people here, which is not a good thing. But um, yeah. No, no, no, we can. We can be, we can crush it. Americans. I like your like your confidence there. Very good. So anyway, guys, thanks for hanging out. Appreciate it. Go write us a review if you can and leave us a message at disordered.fm, an email or a voice message.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

And yeah, and you did it anyways. Come show you did it anyways. We love listening to those uh or or reading them. Um yeah, send the questions.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Without a doubt. We'll see you next week. Pre-recorded me is going to tell you all those things again in about two seconds. See you later. See you later. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.