Anxiety Questions From The Audience (Episode 139)

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Is it normal or a regular feeling to feel like my anxiety disorder is protecting me? I fear when my anxiety lessens that I am no longer aware or that I'm missing something, which loops me back around to fear.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

That mechanism will tell you that it is on your side. It's like living with a cult leader in your head. This is real. I see the real problem. I am protecting you. I am good for you. That is what makes it so hard to walk out of the OCD bubble, to resist compulsions, to not ruminate, because it feels super risky to go against this thing that you feel like has actually got your back.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

It is very normal and very regular for you to misinterpret your feelings and thoughts and habit as intuition, but it's not. It's just a very old mechanism doing its job and keeping your attention.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

This is listener questions, audience participation, free for all. So let's get into it. I am Drew Linsalata, one half of Disordered. I am a therapist that treats anxiety and anxiety disorders, practicing in New York, former sufferer of all the stuff we talk about here on Disordered, better now. Uh, author, co-author with my other co-host, we'll talk about that. And uh, you know, guy with expensive microphones that likes to talk about anxiety and anxiety disorders. And I am joined by Hi, I'm Joshua Fletcher.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Uh, happy new year, Drew, and to anyone who tunes in when these episodes come out. I'm a therapist, author specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. If you've got to episode 139, you could probably recite this introduction yourself, but it's polite to do that anyway. Uh, we're going to take community questions today and did it anyways and stuff, because it's always good to check in with the community and uh make sure we're answering your questions as well. We do get a lot of questions. Uh, if you want to send any in, you can do it at disordered.fm. Um and you can share a voice note or an email, or you can just listen to other people's, and that's what we'll do today. Um, did you have a nice new year, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I did. It was pretty uneventful. Had about a nine-day break from from seeing clients from work. It was good, relaxed, chilled out. What'd you do? Anything good? Oh, nice one.

SPEAKER_03 2:13

I traveled around the UK, Devon, Gloucestershire, places like that to see family, and now I'm back in Manchester again, and it's lovely. Very cool. So good. Cool. Here we go. Hi, Josh and Drew. My name's Poppy. Feel free to use my name. I have suffered from an anxiety disorder for many years. However, over the last year it has got much worse. My question is: is it normal or a regular feeling to feel like my anxiety disorder is protecting me, showing me truth almost? I suffer suffer from the existential theme a lot. Good acknowledgement. I fear when my anxiety lessens that I am no longer aware or that I'm missing something, which loops me back around to fear. Thank you for everything you discuss on your podcast. It has helped me so much. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 3:03

Oh, uh is it is it normal? Poppy wants to know, is it a normal experience? Yeah, I it is incredibly normal. Like, I don't care what variety of anxiety disorder you have or OCD, whatever that theme is, that mechanism will tell you that it is on your side. It's like a having a it's like living with a cult leader in your head. Only I know what you need. Only I have your back. Don't walk away from me. It's not safe. I have you covered all the time. And while the rest of the world is like, what is going on in there? This person is in a cult and needs to get out. The cult leader is kind of your anxiety disorder is constantly telling you, like, no, I got I got your back. This is real. I see the real problem. I am protecting you. I am good for you.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

It's what Robert Bray. Ouch. I didn't mean that. It is someone from my school who I knew. Nothing to do with any other Robert Bray that you might be inferring from that. Oh just the guy I went to school with called Robert Bray, who thought he knew about OCD.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

That's what he thought. Yeah, I hear you. Um, I didn't try to do that. I've never heard your friend Robert Bray talk about OCD.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Yeah, my friend specifically that went to my high school, no one else. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Okay, so let's expand that just a little bit, and then I want to hear your take on this. That is what makes it so hard to walk out of the OCD bubble, to resist compulsions, to not ruminate, to do exposures. That's what makes it so hard because it feels super risky to go against this thing that you feel like has actually got your back. But it doesn't got your back, I promise.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

The whole point of anxiety and a threat response is to get your attention. Think about it. Your our ancestors needed um this mechanism, this doubt mechanism, to get our attention. So we would stare into the trees at the entrance to the cave, uh the horizon. It's literally helped us evolve to the top of the food chain because we are hyper-vigilant, we can anticipate threat. So its whole purpose simplified is to keep your attention. When you're in an anxiety disorder, it needs to get your attention some way. But because we live in a relatively safe society and old prehistoric threats that no longer exist, it needs to keep your attention in whatever way it can. Now, you mentioned Poppy, you have an existential theme, you know, and so that's the threat. That's the entrance to the cave. You must find an answer to it, whatever. It is very normal and very regular for your thoughts to for you to misinterpret your feelings and thoughts and habit as intuition. But it's not. It's just a very old mechanism doing its job and keeping your attention. It's got it. You know, it's not in a way it's protecting you, but with disordered anxiety, it's not, is it? It's got confused into thinking it's protecting you. I remember when I was reading What Every Therapist Needs to Know About Anxiety Disorders by Sally Winston and Marty Seif. It's like my Bible. Uh, and there's a line in it that says, Anxiety hates any threat to hypervigilance. So, what you're describing there, Poppy, is that I'm always hyper-vigilant, and then in the moments I'm not, I'm not used to that. So my anxiety wants to bring me back to hypervigilance, and that's all that's happening there. So notice it, notice that the more attention I give this hypervigilance, the more I'm thanking it. It's okay to lean into that feeling where it feels a bit odd and it feels a bit off.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

I agree 100%. I think the other thing that makes it feel like it is it is protected. Papa used the word truth. It feels like it's showing me the actual truth.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

Truth, intuition, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

It's a tough one too, because when everybody around you doesn't understand why you're acting that way, because they don't see a threat to you, it can even leverage that more. Like, I know no one else sees it, but I do, says your anxiety disorder. And like if you're prone to that sort of stuff, and this is where your old school friend, well, stop saying his name, will fall down miserably by just parroting the same thing over and it's a cult leader, it's fake, it's and I'm sure that's what goes on in places like that. Now you have to get into the nuance of who actually you are outside of your anxiety disorder. What are your experiences? What are your beliefs? What are your culture? What makes it difficult for you to turn your back on this protector? Other than just fear. So, yeah, unfortunately, it's really normal. Everybody who recovers from an anxiety disorder did what they thought at one point to be very reckless and irresponsible, and then they learned that it wasn't. So yeah, good to go.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Someone asked me at a conference, they said, if you could make the most simplest way to get out of an anxiety disorder in the most simplest sentence, what would it be? I said, Really? Um ultimately it's it's getting really good at leaving it the hell alone.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

That's true.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

That's literally it. Yeah. And it's really hard to leave it alone. Yeah. Because yeah, it goes literally against instinct. Your instinct is saying, you know, you're missing something. Here's the truth. Whatever, it's got your attention, poppy. Overcoming anxiety disorder is rolling the pentamillion gun and going, I'm calling you bluff. I'm getting good at leaving this the hell alone.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

Yeah, yeah. We see that with anything, whether you're doing things to face your fear, trade intentionally trigger fear and exposure, or we talked about rumination, anything but rumination, you're fond of saying in your practice. Yeah, yeah. Because not ruminating on that problem feels like the wrong move.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Irresponsible, you're missing the truth. There's more you need to know. By all means, have existential thoughts and reflections. I love it. Yeah, not when triggered, though, because you're not seeing things through an accurate lens.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

100%. Good question. Thank you, Poppy. I appreciate it. Um, I got one I will read. So we did not tell each other what questions we were going to read. So it's like uh, you know, a little bit of fun today. So if I stole this one from you, Josh, I'm sorry. There's a short one from well, she didn't give us permission to use her name. So it says, question for Josh specifically. How do you feel now? I know, like this is for you specifically. How do you feel now when you're generally unwell? Does it trigger old anxiety behavior since you were prone to health anxiety in the past? Since you can't expose yourself to illness in practice until you're genuinely ill. So how how do you feel? What do you do when you're actually feeling poorly? I'll use British.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

Um, I do get get a bit worried if it's a new illness, if it get the sniffles or a cold or flu or whatever, I generally don't. Right. Um, but if it's like a something new, there will be a bit of anxiety there. But I'm aware of the mechanism. You know, I have OCD, I have an obsessive compulsive brain, so I will be aware of the mechanism. Oh, it's trying to hijack this uncertainty here, and I will remind myself it's okay, you know, this doesn't need urgency and attention. But I will still feel anxiety, yeah. But how long that anxiety lasts for is based on how many how much compulsions and how much time and attention I give it. So, but yeah, there's something new. I will be a bit like, oh, what's that? I've not experienced this before.

SPEAKER_04 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

It literally literally happened the other month. I had a probably a half a day of worrying about something, and then there was a bit like hold on, OCD health anxiety is taking over here. I'm not engaging with this. I'm gonna do what not anxious me would do. And when you when you've had anxiety for a long time, you get it. You know that even worrying about it warps your perception of your symptoms. Sometimes it makes the symptoms more prominent. We know there's all the data and the psychology behind the more attention you give something, the more you perceive it to be worse as well. Yeah, um, and so you know, you I practice delaying. Obviously, I keep an eye on something that's that's there, but I practice delaying, postponing. I'll check it later if I still feel compelled to, you know. But yeah, of course, I'm human, I'll get that reaction. If there's something new, I'll, you know, there'll be a bit of worry there, of course.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah. Good question. Yeah, excellent question. Very common, I think. Uh, a lot of people in our in our listenership, our audience, our community, if you want to use the word, will say that when they get sick. I actually find it interesting. I would say that most people, not scientific, just sort of rough guess here, will say that when they are feeling unwell, they're actually sick, their anxiety levels really elevate, notably. And then some people will say, Oh, I get less anxious. I'm too sick to pay attention to what's going on in my head. Like it takes them out of the story in their head. So it's so interesting to see how what does that tell you about like illness anxiety, right? It's such an interesting thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

I was terrified. Well, it's in situational anxiety derives from a different part of the brain than anticipatory anxiety. Um, and that was proven. I remember when I had I was terrified of getting COVID when it first came around. Uh, and then I got it, and I was just too ghast to even be bothered by it. I'm so I'm so ill, I can't even be bothered being anxious.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Yeah, I've had people say that.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Um my brain was telling me you're gonna get COVID and freak out, but I'm just like, I was like, I've got it now, and I just I'm just gonna lie down. I cannot be bothered. I couldn't even be bothered to ruminate.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

When you think about it, it is a lot of effort, it burns a lot of effort, and there's a lot of energy taken to constantly actively be engaged in worry. Like being concerned about something is no effort, like you can just have concerns. Worrying the verb, ruminating the verb takes a lot of energy. And sometimes you're just so sick, and all I want to do is sleep and go under the covers because I'm shivering. And I I just can't, I cannot, I have no energy for that right now, is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 12:31

What's a fantastic resource with for people for health anxiety? Where can they go?

SPEAKER_02 12:36

I hear that the host of the disordered podcast, have you heard of disordered? It's a really good podcast. I hear that the host of Disordered wrote a book called The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety. And I hear that you can find out more about it if you go to disorder.fm. So I hear word on the street.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

And I hear they're writing another one on DPDR, but there we go.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I heard about that, but that can be neither confirmed nor denied at this time. So okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Uh I'm gonna read a Did It Anyway. You ready? Yeah, let's do it. Um they didn't give permission to share the name, but here we go. Just wanted to share a Did It Anyway. I'm super proud of myself for all of my achievements over the past year recovering from panic disorder. For the past few months, I have considered myself mostly recovered or desensitized, but I've been looking for exposures to get me all the way there. Since my disorder stems from a medication reaction as the final straw, my lingering issues have been health anxiety related as well as fear around reactions to medications. Despite this, despite being six months pregnant, which is a massive exposure itself, and despite suffering from a horrible virus, which I declined to research timelines and risks whilst pregnant of, by the way, I still managed to change brands of a medication I take for a long-term health condition without tapering, without obsessing over potential side effects I knew happened to someone changing. I just did what non-anxious me would do and took the goddamn pill. Also, on the same day, made a decision to start supplementing vitamin D, which is something else non-anxious me would do without second thought. Proud of myself and one step closer to a full recovery, and Josh is gonna come in there and say desensitization. Happy New Year, guys.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Oh, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

How good is that? I love that. And I can relate to it as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Yeah, it's one thing. There was one thing after another. I did this, and then I do this. You know, non-anxious you. Where's Billy Mays? Oh, I lost Billy Mays. He's in the signboard somewhere. Oh, I don't know if he's in here. Oh no he is. Where is he? Hang on, ready? Yeah. Come on, Billy Mays.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

There he is. Sorry, I'm a little slow on the buttons today.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

All right, sorry, I need to play, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

No worries.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Uh well done. I I love that. Yeah, it's because you just it's the fear of change. You're afraid of that trigger because you've altered a variable. Yeah. I've been fine, but it's because all my variables are in check. Actually, no, non-anxious me would change variables, so I'm gonna do that. Well done, really good.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

You know, I think even non-anxious version of you, whoever you are, listener right now, might be concerned. Like, uh, is there gonna be side effects here? Is it gonna make me feel worse? Everybody might have that concern, but this person who sent them the dead did it anyway, or is did it anyway. It's banking on the idea, like obsessing over it, looping through it, googling, ruminating. Feels like I'm protecting myself, but it's actually not doing anything. There is no protection in that at all. Zero. There's no good outcome from that ever. Just saying. So a person that is non doesn't have an anxiety disorder, might say, I don't know, maybe this, I don't know if I really want to risk the side effects, but I I'm feeling terrible, so I'm gonna take this medication. If they do start to experience side effects, they may take action then. Change, switch back to the old man, call the doctor. There was no ruminating and worrying actively. Very good. Um, let's do an audio. How's that? We'll do an audio, did it anyway, because it's a really good one, and then we'll move on from there.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Nina from Colorado. You can use my name. And I wanted to share my effort list for 2025. These are my Did It Anyways that I had on my vision board, and some that weren't on there that I accomplished. Better sleep. Unrushed grocery store trips, driving eight minutes to my sister's apartment, driving to the gym, movie trips. And along with that list come some others. Um, driving to my appointments by myself, micro exposure, being home alone by myself. Um, I drove to a further distance outside of my comfort zone a couple weeks ago. I have had a bit of caffeine. I am doing everything that Craig the Credit said I could not do or I could not handle. But I'm not sure. Thank you so much for doing the Lord's workout here and being straightforward on social media. And I hope you have a happy new year.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Woohoo!

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Nina crushing me. Well done, Nina. I love that. I love the enthusiasm. Uh telling Craig the critic to go and do one. It's brilliant. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

Go do one. I love that you had an eff it list. I love that you called it that.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

What does that mean? I don't know what that means.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

F it. You know what? We're not familiar with it.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Oh, eff it. Oh, right. I thought it was like, oh, okay. Sorry. I'm not with it today.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

That's all right. Sometimes our brains are a little slow. You know my favorite part of that, by the way? Unrushed. Watch how I do this. This is going to be very skillful. Unrushed grocery store trips. As if slowing down could be helpful, which is another thing that somebody might want to write a book about. Oh, wait. I hear that one of the hosts of disorder. I heard that one of the hosts of that great podcast wrote a book called 7% slower. That's all about using slowing down as a as a as a helpful thing in descent.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Well, yes, it's a good book. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Wow, that was such a skillful plug. You know what I give myself. Oh my god. We there you go. Thank you. That's exactly right. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Okay, what have I got here other than just further devaluing this podcast? Um I've got a question. It's time for Drew's questions. Here we go. I don't think they've not given um permission to use the name. Here we go. Uh thanks so much for all you do. I was I was doing fairly well in my recovery and recently went on vacation in Europe for Christmas. The first night after falling asleep, I was awoken by the church bells down the street, which triggered a two-hour long panic attack. It only stopped after taking a Xanax, which I happened to have on hand for the flight. From then on, for the entire trip, I struggled to sleep without having rolling panic attacks and dealt with anxiety every day. I thought coming home would help, but it's hanging around, and my doctor has prescribed larazopam to sleep until the anxiety calms down. Is it common to have rolling panic attacks? I've also been struggling with the idea of how much of a struggle it will be to stop the larzepam when the doctor recommends it. I don't want to be on it. I'm scared of benzos, but also know that I need to sleep. Over to Drew.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Okay, didn't know this question was coming. First of all, yes, it is a very, very common experience. Like, so that is not a special experience, which is good. We're not invalidating, but it's good to know like that's not a special experience. It's very, very common in our community for sure. And the rolling panic tends to come from following the instructions. So earlier in the episode, Josh was talking about how it's designed to get your attention. And it does. And it it whispers instructions or screams them at you. Get safe, do something, fix this, make this go away. Something is wrong. Do something. And so you do, except the feeling is still there. So you're not really doing anything except amping yourself up. So it just keeps rolling and escalating, and then you get exhausted and it starts to calm down. But then you're still like in that whole hyper-vigilant. How do I feel now? Is it still there now? What should I do now? Am I dying now? Am I going crazy now? And bam, it ramps back up again. So it all stems from the idea that I am going to try to fix this very scary internal experience or get away from it or avoid it or be saved from it. But I can't because it comes from inside me. And so I just keep re-triggering that over and over and over and over. Super common. And then after the panic attack, I call it the panic attack hand over hangover. Even when it fades, you know, two hours of church bells and bam, you you know, okay, maybe you fell back asleep. Now I am hyper-vigilant again. Is it gonna happen again? How am I feeling now? Oh my god, that was so bad. Oh my god, oh my god, you stay in omg mode. You stay in omg mode. That happens.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

Yeah, that's why doing what non-anxious you would do whilst sensitized is so important. Yeah, um, very common. Um, and you just go to compulsion town. Right. So you you went to Europe, you're enjoying it, and then suddenly, bam, you have that adrenaline rush, you sensitize, you don't want it to happen again. So you do what you know, the biggest fit cardinal sin in our community that I've done many a time. It's oh just keep an eye on it.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

But then when we keep an eye on it, we're thanking the threat response. And and you enter something I call uh the loop of peaking anxiety, which is first mentioned in anxiety practical about panic, a book written by me back in 2016. Uh, see what I did there. Oh we are killing it today. Plug wars.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Uh yeah, the the the loop of peaking anxiety is very common. It's what started mine, to be fair, with one panic attack and then constant rolling panic attacks. But notice where your attention is.

SPEAKER_02 21:59

Yeah, you're you're

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Looking for the next one, you're you're not engaging without uh you're not engaging with things because it feels too dangerous to leave it alone. You you're allowed to leave it alone, you're okay. And the fact that you're well enough to sit there and write that great email and and and do that shows you that you're there, your brain's working. It's just a fear of fear.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah. Well, let's get practical. You wrote a book called Practical About Panic, uh, which I think is great. So if we're going to be practical about this, because I hear 10,000 people saying, But how? But how do I do what non-anxious me would do? In the moment where you are at OMG, like peak OMG, oh my God, right? That is the moment that what we require is what Claire Weeks called the floating, right, or whatever, non-resistance, mindful acceptance. Well, I don't care what you call it, but that is the moment of peak courage, where now it's like OMG mode tells me that I have to get up, I have to walk around, I have to pace, I have to ask if I look okay, I have to see who's gonna help me, I have to check my heartbeat, I have to see if I'm breathing, I try to calm my breathing down. Or I could take a chance at spending the next 60 seconds sitting uh still and quiet to just accept the fact that this is what I'm feeling right now. That is what break that's the spanner that goes in the works, right? Into the spokes of the wheel that would ultimately stop the wheel from turning. Because that experience, yeah, you feed that back into the algorithm and your predictive brain starts to say, maybe this isn't a disaster. Look, it it's bad, we don't like it, but maybe I don't have to sound disaster bells.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

Yeah, and you could you can sit with it, or you can just uh if if that if you struggle with that, I'd just like to do what non-anxious you would do. But you got to bring that with you. Or what non-anxious you would be doing on holiday, and that's the thing as well. That's why a lot of people get panicky on holidays. Yeah, their routine they can't fall back on. True. I don't know what non-anxious me is gonna do in Prague. Yeah, I'll say, well, then guess you know, go for a walk, do something, go to a museum. What feeling like this?

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Hell yeah. Or that could mean I'm gonna just finish making this cup of tea or whatever it is you're doing while I am at level 10 panic. I I did that many, many times. I follow the same trajectory. One panic attack, that was the next 25 years of my life on and off. It was enough of an experience to say, like, I don't ever want this to happen again. But I had to learn to, I guess I'll brush my teeth while I am shaking, having hot and cold flashes, and like feeling like I'm pretty much dying right now. That's that's how you do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

So you also notice you never you only ever have one 10 out of 10 panic attack in your life.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

That is true.

SPEAKER_03 24:28

It's probably you never have a 10 out of 10 panic attack. It's always nine. Yeah, you never go above a nine. Why? Because the confusion about what was happening makes it a 10. But even in you have a full-blown adrenaline rush, there's still a part of your brain that knows what's happening. So it could never go past a nine.

SPEAKER_02 24:44

And I use that as an assurance thing for people who panic. However, people that do have panic disorder will constantly tell me, or us, or the community, that it was the worst panic attack ever. You can't keep having the worst panic attack ever. That's not possible. I understand that in the moment, you're gonna the interpretation in that moment is I'm so scared, I'm gonna say this was the mother of all panic attacks. But you had the first one was the mother of all. The one yeah, the first one's always the mother. Yeah, exactly. So very good. Um, good question. Appreciate you, Sharon. Uh, let us do where are we? 25 minutes. We got time. So this is an audio, did it anyway, end question. It's an interesting question. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Hey, Josh and Drew. First off, really quickly, just want to say thank you both for this podcast. It's been integral in terms of my recovery, not only from general anxiety, but also panic disorder and health anxiety as well. I'm calling today because last night I did it anyways, and texted one of my friends that I've been feeling a spark between the two of us and asked if he felt the same. I did not tell him, however, that I've secretly been in love with him for three and a half years. He got back to me this morning saying that his feelings are rooted in friendship, and he apologized for misleading me, but he really hopes that we can maintain our friendship because he values it. I know you both aren't running a relationship podcast, but unfortunately, this sort of situation is not new to me. Every single time I have told a man of my feelings, it's always landed in this result of being seen more as a friend, and it's resulted in this negative feedback loop, and honestly, has made dating, approaching men, all those sorts of things anxiety-inducing. So I was just curious if you all had any advice, especially now while this is still fresh, in terms of not letting a negative experience dictate future experiences. My second question actually revolves more around grief, or really the grief when you're rejected. Because while I understand there is grief when you lose someone, I feel like there is a nuance to grieving the what if of someone or their potential. Because I can imagine, as a chronic overthinker, that is something I will be thinking about quite a lot in coming days, months, what have you. Thanks again for the podcast. Really appreciate it. Interested to hear what you both have to say.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Well, we get a little bit of applause for being brave enough to express her feelings. I think it was great. What what do you think, Josh, though? This is the loop of rejection. What is the impact of rejection? That's why I like this question.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Um, I mean rejection's not nice. It's okay, but what I what I would do initially is to first of all look at the positives. You mentioned that it keeps happening. Well, the positive facets here is that you're someone who people want to hang around with. They like you, you're a friend, you know, someone who they want to be friends with you, they want you in their life. Um, but the intimate side, the part that you wanted wasn't there on this occasion. So it's not a I would challenge the fact that it was a full-on rejection, it's not a full-on rejection, it just it was a rejection of the intimate side, and that hurts. You know, when you like someone, that hurts. That's okay. And it's probably happened a couple of times, well, a few times, it sounds like. But you frame it accurately, as in like, okay, I'm actually good at forming relationships and friendships. That's a really good part of who I am. But I just crave a bit more of an intimate side too, and that's okay, and that will come, you know, where whether it's now or whenever. Um, because for some people it's just compatibility, and sometimes it just sucks. I say that as a therapist, like sometimes it just sucks. You you like people that sometimes the feeling isn't mutual. A lot of the times the feeling isn't mutual. The second part, I would raise an eyebrow a bit more about grieving what could have been. Then we're going then we're grieving a fantasy because you don't know what could have happened. You don't know. You know, and that's when Craig the critic comes in and being like, Oh, look what you could have won. I said, Well, no, because that is not based in any truth or anything. That's projecting our fantasy, and we're grieving the fact that you know this fantasy didn't come alive. And that's where I challenge it that a bit too. It's okay to feel vulnerable and a bit sensitive going into these things to put yourself out there. But look, what have you lost? You've lost nothing from putting yourself out there, okay? Yes, it's okay to feel a bit embarrassed and stuff like that, but you've lost nothing, and it's a really brave thing to do because you're living authentically, congruently, and truthfully. Yeah, and that's something that you should always kind of power pat yourself on the back for. I think it's really cool. Also, Drew and I are saying when we first list played that back, we were like, we need to take you out for a whiskey or something.

SPEAKER_02 29:54

Yeah, yeah, you get to Manchester or New York. That that was a tough, tough shot.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

Well, I've been there. Yeah, I've been there. But believe it or not, Drew, but someone has been like, I'm just not into that. I'm like, what the hell is wrong with you?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

How could you not want this, says Josh?

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Have you seen this?

SPEAKER_02 30:13

You know, I I can appreciate the question, and I think your answer was was dead on. Uh the only thing I might add is be really careful about the conclusion. Like, this is the kind of stuff that I, you know, ramble on about all the time. Why is it so hard for me to like walk away from my overthinking? Why is it so hard for me to walk out of the OCD bubble? Why is it so hard for me to face my fears? Well, sometimes we see ourselves as inherently defective or weak or incapable or less than. And that does not make it easy to do hard things on purpose. So be careful about internalizing this. Josh's reframe was really great. I'm good at forming connections. I clearly am good at forming relationships. So what's actually happening right now? I I made myself vulnerable. I I unfortunately formed a relationship with somebody who doesn't crave the same level of intimacy. So I am feeling hurt right now. I am feeling rejected. That doesn't make me structurally defective. It me right, so be careful about internalizing that whole like I have a pro I'm a problem because that makes it so hard to deal with the other aspects of anxiety, recovery, or desensitization. I love that Lily was able to recognize I I'm a chronic overthinker. So like I have to grieve what would have been. No, no, no. You just overvalue thinking as as a useful thing. So you it's that habit says, oh, it would be a good idea for me to sit and and think about what might have been. That's a terrible idea. That that doesn't you could think about what you want. You know what I want a relationship is this, but oh, I need to grieve what might have been. No, that's just no. Yeah, that's not that's not a good idea. Thinking just not helpful to do anything. Yeah, no, not at all. So really good question. I appreciate Lily sharing and being open about that too. I I'm sure that people listening will will, you know, will understand what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

So yeah, no, well done, Lily. And it's okay. And remember, your value is not um measured by whether you're in a relationship or not.

SPEAKER_04 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

You know, your relationships, in my opinion, should be shared when two people are almost kind of happy in themselves and they're willing to share their lives, but that's only my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I agree. Um, how about we do another audio? Um, and then we'll do maybe one more written. But this is a good one too, because it's a combination did it anyway and question.

SPEAKER_05 32:26

Hi there. Thanks for all that you guys do. And um, feel free to use this recording. Um, I have sort of a did it anyway and also a question. So I have struggled with somatic OCD and health anxiety pretty much most of my life. It's ebbed and flowed. I've been in different states and dealt with it in different ways, but this summer I was diagnosed with a um temporary fixable but um heart condition. And that just threw me into the most sensitized state I have ever been in in my entire life. Um, it was incredibly challenging because, you know, the symptoms of my heart issue were similar in some ways to um my, you know, panic and anxiety. And so I have found an amazing therapist, and we've been working a lot on, you know, noticing the difference between, okay, what's a symptom of my actual condition versus what's a symptom of my anxiety and pushing through that, you know, this is the first time in my life I've ever dealt with a little bit of agoraphobia. Um, was really scared to kind of go anywhere by myself in case something happened. But I followed my values and my one of my really good friends was having a camping weekend that was four hours away. Um, and so I did end up driving by myself there and back, and it was really hard. And there were times where I had to kind of talk myself down. Um, but I'm I did it and I made it, and I was um really proud of myself. And so that leads me into my question is as I'm getting um a bit more desensitized, it it almost feels like there are two voices in my head competing at times. You know, I'll feel myself start to kind of get that itching of panic, and I'll have this voice in my head that says, we should freak out right now. Um, but I also have another voice in my head that says, no, let's wait. I think everything's fine. Um, and so curious to know a little bit more about what you think about those those two voices in your head and and how you sort of manage both of those. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

Applause for the did it anyway par for sure. Challenging.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

Yeah, really good and a good question. Um you don't manage them, you can observe them, and then you do you decide whether they're important or not, your volition. Um, in my previous book, and how does that make you feel? An upcoming book, same time next week, released May the 14th, uh, I talk about all the different voices in our head, uh, whether it's anxiety, critic, intuition, volition, irreverence, whatever. And the reason I use that is to demonstrate how we always have these different voices. Anxiety and people who are sensitized have a very loud anxiety voice. But just because something is loud doesn't mean that it's important. It's just actually quite embarrassing itself sometimes. You know, you're you're bringing attention to yourself. Um, you don't manage them, but you're always in control of what you pay attention to. Your volition voice, that's you, that's your decision-making voice, is the one that decides who gets to speak. I always picture it like the speaker in the Houses of Parliament in the UK, where it's like, you know, um, you know, MP Burnall from the Clapham residence, you may speak. That's uh kind of what um I like uh how I treat my thoughts sometimes. But you never try to silence them because if you start arguing, like Dave Carbonell says, you know, Uncle Argument, when you start arguing with critic or anxiety, it's never sated. Yeah, you lose every time, too. Yeah, and you're just giving it attention. Yeah, so Uncle Argument wants the attention, just wants to bait you. He's like Piers Morgan and just wants he's thriving off your comp combatant approach. So just be like, no, it's okay. I notice those voices, that's all right. But where's my volition going? Where's my attention going here? And which voice do I want to hear? My compassionate voice, probably.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

I I think we had, you know, we had Russ Harris on last year sometime. He's big in the act world. And you know me and my act triflex, I'm all about the triflex. I think we're seeing this person at stage two of the triflex in action. So if you can be aware that there are two voices, one that says freak out now, and another one that says, Oh, wait, I see what's going on here. I'm uncomfortable, and I and I'm uh I'm not sure what to do with that. Bam, that's the first one. Get present. What's actually happening right now, as opposed to like, I'm freaking out and I have to do something about it. No, no, no. What's actually happening is I'm having an uncomfortable feeling. The second thing that Russ talks about is open up. What are my options? And this is an open up question. What should I do when I hear both uh both voices? Well, I don't know, what are your options? Follow the freak out voice or think about what other things you might do to respond to this experience you're having right now. So, like this is a progress question. This is somebody making real noticeable, measurable progress in real time asking us about it. Well done. Amazing. Yeah, pick really pick the choice that means the most to you as part of your bigger life. That's the the answer to the question is do what matters, the third part of the triflex. Pick the thing that more accurately reflects your values and what you want. How's that?

SPEAKER_03 37:24

Or just do what not anxious you if you're panicky.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Yeah. It's true. It is true. What did you say? Like give it less attention, like leave it the hell alone.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Yeah, recovering from anxiety disorders is learning to leave it the hell alone.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

That's gonna be the third book in the disordered library.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

Leave it the hell alone. That's gonna be. Leave it alone. Uh anyway. Would you like to do it anyway? Yeah, sure. Let's do it. Hi, Josh and Drew. I give permission for you to use my name. My name is Leanne. I live in Bristol in the UK. I've been living with panic disorder for the last two years and GAD since a teenager, and now I'm 40. I listened to your podcast and have read all your books. When I first read Josh's book, I thought, wow, I am cured. There's nothing wrong with me, it's just anxiety. I started to do stuff again and was fine for six months. I felt like I had failed, and I have spent the past few months thinking I am unfixable. But I refused to give in. I reminded myself I am not unfixable. I am human and I will have setbacks. But this is a journey, a journey I will forever be on. My doctor gave me the analogy, your brain is like a garden. It's how you water it. And I think of my recovery like this now. I've now changed my attitude to, oh no, here's a panic attack, to how can I manage this? And I'm still going to continue with what I am doing. Love that. Regardless if I have anxiety or not, petrified or not. Love that too. I would like to share my did it anyway. I went to the cinema for the first time in a year and sat through a three-hour movie. Avatar. God, there's an exposure. James Cameron movies. And um I was anxious, panic even, but I didn't leave. I attended the pantomime for the first time in years. I even had fun and laughed, which I haven't genuinely for years. Where's your anxiety, Leanne? It's behind you. I was waiting for the panic attack and nothing happened. I was anxious at first, but nothing. I can now do my own grocery shopping by myself. I still do it anxious. This attitude shift is now allowing me to think actually, it doesn't matter if I have anxiety or if I don't. I'm still going to do what non-anxious me would have done. I'm loving this. I'm hoping to start doing more things I've been avoiding in the coming weeks, knowing it most probably won't be perfect. And I am a perfectionist. Also, I know now if I have a couple of bad days, it's not a relapse, it's recovery and part of the journey. Thank you for your podcasts and books. I can't wait for the Disordered Community app. Kind wishes, Leanne.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Oops. Sorry, Leanne. Well worth the applause. Textbook. Textbook. Right, exactly. You know what else? I might be anxious when I go and do my thing, but she's learning.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

She's learning a lesson. Oh, well done, Leanne. Down in Bristol. Got some good friends down in Bristol. So if you ever see me in Bristol talking to a tree, then leave me to it.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

He does it often. That's really awesome. It doesn't matter. This is where people want to always ask the question, but how do you deal with this symptom? But how do you deal with that symptom? What about this thought? In the end, you learn it it doesn't matter. I'm just dealing with discomfort. Okay, but then what makes it go away? That's what this person is doing. Because ultimately, the first lesson that starts to seep in that she's talking about is I guess it doesn't matter. I can do this even though I'm anxious. And then after that, then you're not afraid of it anymore, right? So people ask us all the time, how do you talk about anxiety? I talk about DPDR without being triggered because we're not afraid of it anymore. This is how you learn to not be afraid of how you feel anymore. And then as the happy secondary outcome, it tends to happen less then because there's nothing to be on the lookout for.

SPEAKER_03 41:10

So yeah. And the attitude shift, love it. Perfect personification of the attitude shift. Well done now.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Episode 10, disorder.fm slash one zero. You can listen to the attitude.

SPEAKER_03 41:20

One of the one of the uh holy grails of of it all, which is really good.

SPEAKER_02 41:25

The core episodes. Anyway. Core. The core. Uh this was good. I think this was a good choice to do like a free-for-all listener participation.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Yeah, we'll do more of these. I like doing these, and it's nice to hear the questions from the community. Reiterate disorder.fm, you can leave voice notes, you can leave messages, um, go check out the health anxiety book, uh, sign up to the newsletter, and you can join the community disordered community, which will be out soon, uh, where we can share Did It Anyways with each other and encourage each other. I think we're really excited for that. Uh, taking away the attention from Meta and TikTok and all that stuff as well, and just keeping it in-house, which I'm looking forward to. And um, thank you to Drew. I hope you have a lovely year this year, Drew, and I look forward to many more episodes and working together.

SPEAKER_02 42:11

You too, my friend. Good start to 2026. We'll be back next week with another uh, I don't know, hour of something. We'll see. We're out of