Anxiety And The Inward Compulsion (Episode 047)

SPEAKER_04 0:02

The sun is setting. The day is ending. The pale vibes are all around us. It's time for the inward compulsion. Join us on a journey into the deepest corners of your mind. We will sit back, relax, and wonder why the f you can't stop focusing on how you feel. What you think. Light a candle, brothers and sisters. Get comfortable. And let's explore the inward compulsion. Compulsion.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

The habit is to go inward. Either check how we feel, go back to that thought that we're constantly ruminating on. It's got health anxiety we're checking there. It's got OCD, you know, checking if you're still scared of that thought or if that thought still makes you feel a certain way. And it's a catch-all because it's the inwards compulsion. You are doing the inwards compulsion.

SPEAKER_04 0:56

It's not the inward compulsion, it's disordered. Welcome to Disordered episode 47 entitled The Inward Compulsion. I am Drew Linsolata, a therapist in training specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in the great state of New York, in the US of A. And I am an author, a podcaster, and an educator in this community, also a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for a very long period in my life.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in working with anxiety disorders and a previous sufferer and author of several books, and one that is coming out soon and sponsoring this episode. It's called And How Does That Make You Feel? And if you've ever wanted to know what your therapist is thinking, particularly your anxiety therapist and how I work with therapy, then this book is for you. You'll laugh, you'll cry, and you'll inwardsly compulse.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Wow, that's a promise. Makes me want to round and buy it right now. You will inwardly compulse. What is the inward? You know what? Should we start with um maybe we should start with an uh did it anyway, because it has a lot to do with this. Yeah, okay. Yeah, let's do an audio did it anyway because it's always nice to sort of celebrate the community before we start, and then we'll get into the inwards compulsion and our cheesy like radio show role play. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Hi Drew and Josh. I wanted to share my did it anyway. I've been struggling with OCD for the past 10 years, and only the last two have been in actual ERP treatment. And today I was able to do the exposure, which was 10 out of 10 in my hierarchy. I am so so proud. Today I decided I wanted to feel the most anxiety, and that I wasn't gonna do any coping, nothing to comfort me or make me feel less uncomfortable afterwards, including you know listening to disordered in a compulsive way. And actually, once I click it in, I did the exporter and it was super magical. I'm feeling so so happy, and I I'm taking 100% of credit for it, but I wanted to thank you guys because of the content that you put out there and just wanted to say to anyone who's struggling. Like a couple months ago, the exporter I did today would have freaked me out. But I just managed to find my way into a place where I'm comfortable doing it, and that's amazing. So, like my biggest advice is don't mistake learning about it with actually practicing. So as soon as you can, start applying the principles, start practicing, and you're just gonna get there. It's amazing. You're gonna feel proud of yourself. I I swear it's a great feeling. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

That was amazing.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

That was so good. It sounded like she was getting a little choked up and rightfully so.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

You've done the hard stuff. I love that. What was it? It's not just about learning, it's about practicing as well. Um, I think that's outstanding. Can we give her a soundtrack? We could totally have a soundtrack because this week it's all about the inward compulsion.

SPEAKER_04 4:03

Well done. Well done. You guys are gonna hear that little sound clip a lot this week, so don't hate us too much for it. We're just being self-indulgent morons this week. Uh why does that have to do with the inward compulsion, I think?

SPEAKER_02 4:17

So the inward compulsion was something I was thinking about when I was walking to the office this morning, and it's something that unites a lot of anxiety disorders. Uh um it goes hand in hand with the default thought. A lot of people say, well, what's the difference between me and say other people who don't get anxious or they don't have disordered anxiety? And their default thought, usually, you know, if we're talking about other people, their default thoughts like, oh, I wonder what I'm having for dinner later, wonder what's happening at work, wonder when next time I'm gonna see my friend, you know, very kind of everyday, different thoughts, different themes. Uh with people with disordered anxiety, um, they often can't can't relate to this, or they can, or they've forgotten how to do it. And this is because of the inwards compulsion. And this is this thing where when our default thought, when we're not doing anything, when we're bored, when we're in between activities, when we're not busy and distracted, the habit can is to go inwards. Yeah, either check how we feel, go back to that thought that we're constantly ruminating on, if we've got health anxiety, we're checking there, if you've got OCD, you know, checking if you're still scared of that thought, or if that thought still makes you feel a certain way. And it's a catch-all because it's the inwards compulsion. You you are doing the inwards compulsion. And the reason why I've included the music today is that every time you catch yourself inwardsly compulsing, checking, scanning, ruminating, then imagine that music and horrify yourself. Just imagine the 80s synth like taking you out of the inward compulsion. Yeah, if you're sat next to a loved one, you're suddenly doing like invisible synth keys and they ask what you're doing. You just turn to them and go, I'm doing the inwards compulsion. And then and then we need to guide your attention away. The music must stop.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just carry like your 80s rototoms with you. So you can do that like that drum fill to start. One of the things I find super interesting about the inward compulsion is when you say the default thought, there's there's actual a lot of neuroscience. We were talking about this before we hit the play, the record button. The the neuroscience behind this, there's a thing that neuroscientists call the default mode network, DMN, which it shows up in a functional MRI. When you put people at rest into a functional MRI machine, there is a part of our brain that naturally lights up when we don't have any external stimulation. And the default mode network essentially says, let me think about myself. That's oversimplification, but yes, many people have a very active default mode network that says, if I have nothing better to take my attention, I will be the center of my attention. I will have thoughts about myself, how I feel, what I'm thinking, what I'm going to do, what problems do I have to solve. Like it's just a default. The reason why they call it a default mode is in the absence of nothing better to do, many brains, most brains, almost all brains to a certain degree, will go into that mode. And there's also a whole lot of research that is starting to link different levels of activity in the default mode network to things like OCD, GAD, social anxiety. People who have a more active default network seem to be more prone to develop these disorders that we talk about, which makes sense. Because if I have a thought, I must treat it as incredibly important. And by default, I tend to spend a lot of time in my own head. And I think it has to do with uh, you know, this person sent in her did it anyway. And when triggered, the trigger isn't only physical sensations, but it's going to be thoughts and interpretations of those. And if you have a tendency to latch on to every thought you have because it's your thought, this is part of that. This is this is definitely part of it. Or if you feel like, well, I hear you guys talk about, you know, letting the thoughts be there. How is that even possible? Like it seems impossible to even consider not doing that. I think that's the inward compulsion that we're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Yeah. Yeah. And and also it's automatic. Yeah, it is automatic. So some people, it's like a it's like a how it's the same kind of habit. When you've been anxious for so long or or repeated a behavior for so long, it will become automatic. Think about when you brush your teeth. You pretty much do it the same way, you do automatically when you drive a car. When I even shower the same way, like the same way. And there's so many things that I do automatically because it saves my brain. My brain thinks, well, this will save you energy for later. You know, if we can do these things on autopilot, you know, I've I've driven like hundreds of miles and just listened to a book, and I don't even remember kind of driving because it's so automatic. Um but what happens is sometimes the inwards compulsion can become as automatic as you know the same way you get dressed in the morning. It becomes so that and what the job is what we need to do, particularly for someone who goes inwards and ruminates stuff, is to catch it and change it. Yeah, you know, and it became a default automatic habit because you kept doing it over and over and over again. And if every time you do something over and over and over again, you strengthen that neuropathway, and then it becomes easier because that's the easiest way for those neurons to fire through your brain. So, you know, if you're at work and you go on your dinner break, and the easiest neural pathway at that time, with your brain's associations with what you do is oh, I want I'll check how I feel. Oh, yeah, I feel tense and anxious. Oh, I don't like it. Oh, I wonder what's going on. Oh, why am I anxious? Why am I derealized? And you spend your whole dinner break doing that. That's actually habit. That was that inwards compulsion as a habit. And so you catch it and you play the cheesy 80s music, and you go, nope, I must replace this with something different here. That's your clue right there. It always is.

SPEAKER_04 10:06

I love that chair. That's a tough one, though. Like, because I think the automatic part is your brain will automatically create, like, okay, I got nothing to do. I'm just eating my dinner. So let me kick in default mode network lights up. So you can't stop the default mode network from lighting up. That's not a thing that you can just decide to turn off. But I think what develops the habit is it's the response to that. You know, so then you get into that metacognitive theory that says, well, you've developed a belief that I must respond to that. When I have these thoughts, the right thing to do is to like start an internal dialogue with myself. You know, and then it becomes either either a belief that you could tell Josh and I, yeah, I really think that I need to pay attention to my thoughts. And then the habit is that procedural metacognitive belief that you don't even not even aware of, you just build the habit of automatically going into an internal dialogue with yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Yeah. Yeah. It's seamlessly. You don't even know you're doing it. I've done it hard the work is understanding where the problem is. Yep. A lot of people with disordered anxiety don't realize they're doing this compulsion. You know, ruminating is misinterpreted as just thinking, reflecting. No, it's misinterpreted as problem solving. It's not. You're doing the inwards compulsion. People with health anxiety, it's like, actually, you know, I've been quite distracted today. I've been out with the kids, I've been out with my friends. Suddenly I have a moment to myself or a moment during a conversation in a group and I'm not directly involved. Bang.

unknown 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

I'll just check. I'll just check myself.

SPEAKER_04 11:35

And then they're body. You've gone inwards. Every time Josh goes inwards, I'm going to play that music for I'm going to follow him around. But it's so, it's so hard to catch it. You know, like we're making a joke with the silly 80s music, but it's really hard to gain an understanding that, like, oh, I'm doing that again. And I think for people in the community that we serve that are listening to this podcast, the realization that you're doing it comes when you find yourself in that agitated, activated, anxious, disturbed state. Oh, wait a minute. That's the clue that says, oh, I'm doing the inward compulsion again. I'm having thoughts, which is fine, but then I'm following them and I'm conversing with them and I'm inviting them in for tea, and I'm doing all the things. This is really tricky stuff, I think.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

It's tricky, and it's a skill to get used to because a lot of people, everyone, I did this for years, and it's just you think to the natural response when you don't like something is to give it your attention to solve it, fight it or solve it. And you need it's almost like you've got to press slow down and be like, let's see what happened there in that moment where I was feeling fine, and I suddenly felt anxious, and I stayed anxious for the next few hours the whole night, whatever. What happened? Let's slow it down. So you're watching it in slow mode. So you're eating your bologna sandwich and you put it down, you've just finished, and you sit back in slow motion, and you look outside, and then bang, what does my brain usually do here? What's the habit? What of what have I been doing for so long that's doing this? Ah, there we go. I'm going inwards. So rather than looking outside going, oh, I wonder how many cars I can see that are yellow. Not that you would do that, you might do. It's or I wonder what I can do to plan my cousin's birthday that's coming up. Or I wonder what's on TV, or just even being mindful, like, oh I wonder, you know, those trees are looking nice. I can't wait for spring to come. It's basically a gazillion thought. Nope. That's the time through habit, through association, when we are not distracted, or when we're doing a we go inwards. You are inwardly compulsing. And I would also just question here as well. If you're someone who's anxious all day, and we've done an episode on this being anxious all day, this will be a complete montage from morning to evening of inwards compulsion.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's interesting because the inward compulsion is probably in the and I and this is so interesting because I think it changes over time. If I look it back when I was a really anxious person, my thoughts were generally, if I could recognize that default mode network, it would go into thoughts about me. Now, the default mode network isn't necessarily thoughts about me and how I feel, it's your internal conversation. So the default mode network might be thinking about dinner and things of that nature, but an anxious person latches onto thoughts about themselves. How am I feeling? How's my body? What symptoms do I have? Blah, blah, blah. And those become the most important thoughts. So I would, I'd be able to look out the window and look at the trees, but that's not an important thought. The important thought is: am I having skipped heartbeats right now? When was the last time I had one of those? Like, might when do you think that might happen? And then the compulsion is I better keep having this conversation. I gotta keep pulling it, pulling it, pulling it, pulling it.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah, and it's always that thought. Um, and this can happen really importantly, this can happen when you're not anxious. Like so people think, yes, you're more inclined to do compulsions when you're when you're anxious, but also habit and just sheer time of the day. And I used to have this. I was I was just sitting listening to a podcast, driving my car, podcast finishes, and I'll be like, I wonder how I feel at the moment. And I don't mean like reflecting on how I feel about everyday life, you know, that inwards like I wonder if there's any scary symptoms or emotions or feelings that I can latch on to or scan to see if I'm okay. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, and it's almost it's almost that isn't it's scanning to see you're if you're okay. Or if you're part of the OCD crowd, it's I wonder what the status of my feelings are with this certain thought right now. Yeah. So you might have relationship OCD and be like, oh, I wonder if do I still love my partner? Did I make the right choice? You know, you might have harm OCD, you're like, oh, am I feeling angry? You might have a fear of going crazy. Oh, I wonder, oh, I'm feeling a bit more energetic than I did yesterday. Am I developing something? And it's that inwards compulsion, it's like that you know, that didn't need to happen, but will because of habit, because of what we've done. And so, like Drew said before, it's what you do in response to that. It's not, don't beat yourself up and get Craig the critic involved, like, oh look, you're doing the inwards compulsion again. No, no, it's what you do afterwards.

SPEAKER_04 16:37

Yeah, I think because people confuse that and they somehow think, oh, what I'm supposed to do is not have those thoughts. How can I, how do I learn to not think that? Well, you can't. You can't learn to not think that. You can learn to react and relate in a different way to those thoughts when you realize you're having them. So I'll give you a little example for me. Like, um, you know, without going too much into it, I, you know, this week has been tough for me. I'm going through some loss in my family. And I had a thought the other night that was that's copper in the background, guys. Sorry. Um I I had a thought that was disturbing. It was not a nice thing, it was a very unpleasant thought about the person that I lost. But only through a lot of practice over the years, including through my recovery, I was able to recognize, yeah, that's a, I don't like this thought, but I can just let it be and let me see what happens with it. And, you know, it kind of hung around for a little while. And of course, I some emotions came up, and that's fine. But and then it it worked its way through. That is the new reaction to a disturbing thought. Now, if I go back to the days when I was really struggling, I'm done. That thought pins me down and I'm in conversation with it all night long, trying to find a solution to it, trying to fix how I feel about it, trying to make it go away. That's the difference. But I it's a skill that I had to work on for a very long time. And it's now serving me well, even in recovery. I I can have that thought and then the emotions that come with it. I don't, I'm not a robot, but I I could recognize the inward compulsion. Oh, wait, I don't have to, I don't have to have a whole conversation with this thought.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:04

Yeah, I don't really like this thought. I don't, it's but like I don't have to engage with it so much.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Oh, because your metacognitive awareness over time and through recovery is it's good. You can you can see it really much for the rest of your life as well. So we talk about anxiety recovery. Like, I'll always see that now. And you probably still have the doubt.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

100%.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

But you still you can see what the doubt for what it is.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

Yeah, 100%. But I think it's important to illustrate that, not like, oh, look, I'm so good at this, but like it it isn't that I can prevent a thought or a feeling, it's that I can just relate to it differently because my brain's gonna make thoughts and feelings like every brain does. I can't stop it from doing that. So just don't hear us saying that you're supposed to shut down scary thoughts or shut down scanning. We just talk about scanning. The people like their default inward compulsion is, how am I feeling? How am I feeling? How am I feeling? How am I feeling? Oh, that was me, 100%. How do I stop doing that? Well, you don't, but what you do is you start taking the scan results, and uh, you know, my own podcast, they talked about this over the past summer. Throw them away. When your brain hand rushes in like a like an overzealous, like rookie first-year physician. Look, we did another test. Here's your test results. You have to take those results and say, okay, cool, crumple them up and throw them on the floor. And like, what? Your brain would be like, what are you doing? You need this.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah. It's interesting. I I'm more like I remember when I was initially struggling with panic disorder and stuff like that, health anxiety, and the scanning used to come with that, and the inwards compulsion used to come with that. And it was like there was just a stage where I was just like, I don't want I'm gonna I'm gonna just stop scanning. And if I catch myself scanning, I'm like, nope, attention's going away to anything. I'm not, I'll always catch yourself halfway through, and I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm not seeing this through. Yes, you know, I catch myself. You can't stop the initial scan, but halfway through, be like, no, I'm not bothering. I just no, no, and and each time I did that, I created a new neuropathway away. Started to strengthen this, this like, ah, I'm I'm stopping this habit in this tracks and I'm going off to something else. I didn't replace it with a new compulsion, I replaced it with a look, I'm strengthening that attention muscle to come away from the scanning inwards compulsion.

SPEAKER_04 20:17

I think we can almost look at the inward compulsion as a thing that every human being, regardless of your mental health status, probably has to a certain extent. We think. That's what we were thinking machines. And all this neuroscience that shows that lighting up, yeah, it sort of confirms that. And what we're talking about here is not so much like clamping down and shutting down, but like bringing it back to a normal place in your life. And just the one person, we were talking about this too before we hit record. I probably have a much less active throughout my entire life in you know, default mode network. I don't have an internal dialogue with myself all day long. This is a hugely contested thing. Like people like, do you have the inner voice? I'm like, no, I don't. I don't talk to myself all day long. With other people, be like, are you kidding? That's all I do all day long by default. So we're all a little different. But it doesn't cause them any distress. It's not a problem for them.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I don't know if I have the inner voice.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

If you think about that, I've been in these discussions where it's both sides are represented. And I'm like, no, I don't, I don't have an inner voice all day long. And they're like, No, you're lying. That can't be. And I'm like, well, tell me what I'm saying. You can hear your thoughts, or thank you. So you if you don't understand what it is, you might also be one of those people that doesn't really have your having thoughts and you don't engage with them. You don't have an inner dialogue, whereas other people have inner dialogue all day long with themselves, but it's not a problem. It doesn't cause them distress or of any kind, it's just the way they are, and that's fine. So we're talking if you even if you are that person, you could bring that inner dialogue back to like its normal or its rightful place in your life where maybe it serves a purpose or it entertains you or whatever. It just takes up time. It's fine. It doesn't cause you a problem.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

I often have conversations with myself, usually in the shower. Okay. Yeah, and arguments. They're quite funny.

SPEAKER_04 21:54

Or the arguments with other people.

SPEAKER_02 21:55

But I don't actually hear. Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I don't well, maybe that is, maybe I'm vocalizing the I don't know. It's just how you interpret it probably.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Right. But I think, you know, the that internal, or or maybe it goes from being a compulsion to just a thing that your brain does that does not create a problem in your life. Yeah. If you have a very active brain and a very active internal diet, okay, cool. If it's not causing you a problem, then it's fine. You don't have to learn to turn that off. It's just bringing it back, bring restoring like the regular relationship with that as opposed to the distorted relationship with that.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Oh, I see. Does that make sense? I don't know. I don't know. Babbling around that. It does make sense. It does make sense. It's food, it's food for thought. Yeah. Food for thought. Did you ever have what was your main inwards compulsion?

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Oh, my, you know, it shifted over time. My main inward compulsion would go from top five. Top five.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Top five.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

I can't get a deep enough breath. Um, my is my heart going to stop? Those were my top two in terms of physical. Then the other top five in the hit parade were one day everyone, me and everyone I love and care about will be dead. Not just me, everyone I know and love will be dead. That one was a big one that would kick off that internal compulsion.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

That's a jolly thought.

SPEAKER_04 23:03

Oh, dude, I can't even tell you. That one would haunt me all day long. It was rough. Then I'm going to die. And then is this orange juice been poisoned?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

That's like an episode of the inwards compulsion. Oh, it is 122. You know, I think this thought was like, this is my brain all day long. One day. Everyone I love will die. Thanks, Drew. And I can't wait to go home and uh and I would have to hug my loved ones.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

So that's those thoughts would be created in my brain, and the inward compulsion was I would immediately begin to respond to them and have conversations with them and argue with them and reason them. And why am I having this thought? And oh my goodness, it was exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah, I've with grief as well. Like, you know, I've I've literally seen loved ones die. But it's nothing to do with disordered anxiety. Right. It's separate things. Like I can reflect on life and death and stuff, but I ain't gonna do it compulsively to shortcut my fear of things. I'll do it when I'm off the hamster wheel. Yeah. So, like, yeah, it's scary stuff. But sometimes you can tell for me, I can kind of tell when it's like an anxious, like anxiety, disordered anxiety trying to pull me in to have a fight that I never wins. Yep. Uh but sometimes when I'm not anxious, I'll sit there or conventionally anxious and just be like, yeah, it's pretty scary, you know. But I'm not, you know, I I am scared, but I know that there's nothing I can do. And and my body knows this as well, and my brain, and I can still come back to a state of homeostasis. Yeah, I'm not gonna get pulled in, particularly if you've got existential OCD as well, which is the horrible one where they just pulls you in. Like, let's think about all the cool subjects about that you can't that you don't have answers for. It's like, no, no, no, no. Uh yeah, I'm able to kind of recognize now I know what that that's the kind of anxious trigger that's like, no, you can you can hit me with some anxiety, but you're not having my attention for the next four hours. No, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Yeah, I think I learned that mostly for me, it was people say, well, I, you know, I'm trying to like, I've heard people say I don't want to be blindsided, I want to try and predict everything. For me, I found that I was just trying to answer unanswerable questions. And I'm like, if I so now I know, like when that thought pops into my head the other night, it's like, well, there's nothing, I cannot find a solution to this situation. This is reality, this is what's going on. There's nothing I can do, no amount of thinking will change this reality. And it's a disturbing reality and an unpleasant reality, so there's nothing I could do. I I can't solve this qu I can't solve this problem or answer this question. It's not even a question, but my brain wants it to be. And so like I'm just gonna have to let it trigger some emotions in me and let them happen, I guess. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 25:46

I'm laughing because I'm laughing because it sounds like your thought process behind trying to buy jeans in a clothes shop. Oh, dude.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

That would include that would that would indicate that there was a thought process when I bought those. You're overestimated.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Like, but what is this? But what does it matter? It doesn't matter. This is an unanswerable question. It's an unanswerable question.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Yeah, yeah. No, it's always answerable for me. I'm gonna look like crap no matter what I buy. So like it's easy. That's easy for me. You're very handsome. It's okay. Yeah, I get it. But uh no, I think in the end, it's um it was for me the unanswered. I'm okay, let's let's try and find an answer to an unanswerable question. Like, well, it's not answerable stuff.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, definitely. And and uh when you're anxious or obsessive and compulsive, the threat response wants to find the hidden and the unknown. Because it was great for our ancestors, wasn't it? Yes. What's hiding behind that that tree? What's coming out of that cave? Who's hiding behind the hill to attack my tribe? So I need to kind of speculate because that's part of my human brain. If I speculate on what could be lying in the hidden, then that gives me the advantage because I can potentially be one step ahead. But when you're sat in Walmart and having thoughts about what does it mean to be conscious and blah blah blah, or what if uh this help things out, what if this stomach pain means something else? What if I don't want to be with my partner? What if I know my boss fires me? What there's no point to that because there's no advantage to us. And and so that old prehistoric threat response, the omegdalo is like trying to be helpful, but in the modern subjective terms, that's when we can go inwards.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And I think then there's the compulsion about the compulsion, too, because one thing that I'm thinking about now, I know I'm sharing a lot of my own personal experience, and I don't mean to dictate what I do is what you should do, but uh one thing that just popped into my head is the compulsion about the compulsion because when I did have that thought that popped in, I was less concerned about the thought itself because of all the work that I've done on that. But there was some of that old, those old lower pathways are still there from back in the days that I struggled. They don't disappear, you don't erase them. They just become the lower preference path. But they're still there. Because do you know what I was most concerned about? Not being sad and upset like I was over the thought. What I was most concerned about is, oh shit, what if I get stuck on this?

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Oh, I hear this. I'm like, oh, you're just gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

It was so meta in a way, like so like listen, I don't know anybody more recovered than me. And I had that thought for 30 seconds or a minute. Oh shit. I had that thought. Uh yeah, I'm disturbed by it. I can let it go, but what if I get stuck on this tonight?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

But it's just the way it grabs your attention, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 28:34

Yes, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

It's the same with like we get so many questions about sleep anxiety. What if I never sleep again? What if I what if I get stuck on this? And it's an iteration of what if if this gets to the point where I can't cope?

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Remember that. Any listeners, what if this gets to the point where I can't cope?

SPEAKER_04 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

And all these thoughts and what ifs are iterations of that, just dressed up differently. Correct. Uh you know, uh, so oh, what if I never sleep again? It's just the same as what if this gets to a point where I can't cope? Uh, what if I get stuck on this thought is just the same as what if this gets to the point where I can't cope? Uh I work with people with OCD who have like words that just go round around their head. Or what if what if I this this vo this word never leaves my head and it gets to the point where I can't cope? Right. They're all iterations of the same what if. And my only response is that I will cope and I've coped with everything, and this ain't gonna be the thing that's gonna throw me off.

SPEAKER_04 29:28

Because in the end, that's the way I had to answer that. Well, what if I get stuck? Because the the context was I'm exhausted. You know, there's been a lot going on, and like you know, I'm just tired, I'm just I'm sagging mentally, emotionally, physically. Oh no. What if I get stuck on this and now I'm up all night and I'm already like running to the ground a little bit? And my answer to that was like, I don't know. I guess I'm just gonna have to let it ride and see what happens here.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

You could also like assure yourself that the brain is incredibly neuroplastic and you can't really get stuck on anything because you can rewire your brain. Yeah, I mean that's that's always assuring.

SPEAKER_04 30:02

That's true. I mean, well, you know what? That's baked into that now for me at that point. Yeah, that assurance there.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

You went high, you know, guns blazing stoic.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

In a way, well, on the thought itself, the content of the thought, I did use like my worldview for sure. But the the compulsion about the compulsion, now what if I get stuck on the thought? Now that's not the content of the thought, that's just what if I get stuck on a thought was well, I guess if I get stuck on it, I won't sleep tonight, and I don't guess I'll handle it. Whatever happens, I'm gonna have to let it ride. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Are you gonna let it ride?

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Let it ride. I was gonna have to let it ride. I'll deal with whatever comes up, I guess. And that was the that was the best answer I could have given it. But it was a compulsion about the compulsion, the inward compulsion about the inward compulsion.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, it's anything to grab your attention, though. Yeah, they're all the same thing, they're all iterations of the same thing. Uh there's not what whatever you're inward inwardsly compulsing about, it's always it's just to grab your attention, to to bring your attention to the uncertainty. The content will be imaginative, unique to you, and you'll often get the thought, but I wonder if anyone's had this thought. What if this is the thing that traps me? No, no, you'll always be able to get out of it. Yeah, but anyway, we we really um hope that you got something out of um this if it resonates with you. It's certainly something that resonated with me a lot. Uh, and it was a habit that took me a while to get out of, and but it took a lot of compassion. Don't be you know harsh on yourself to get out of that uh inwards compulsion. And and you'll find that you know the better you get at it, the calmer you will be in the long term. Um, but yeah, uh we're at the stage of the oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

I would add one more thing though, just to you know, a bit of a validation. The fact that you have an inward habit or an inward thing doesn't that's not what indicates that there's a problem because every human being has that, right? And your task is not this daunting task to turn yourself into a non-thinking robot. Don't worry about it. Like it's just the thought-oh, yeah, yeah. The think of the thoughts as a river. Every there, every one of us has that river flowing. You're just drowning in it a little bit now, and you're you're gonna learn to crawl out of it and sit nicely and enjoy that river and dip in when you want to and take a swim and then take a drink and then sit on the side. That's what you're learning to do. It's okay, you're not broken. Yeah. So important. Should we do uh go to our more did it anyways questions?

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah, I've got a did it anyway. We can read out. Uh here's one that's sent in at the beginning of January. Um, hey, Drew and Josh, you can use my name. Okay, thanks, Jessica. Although I usually go by royal jest jester on social media and it personally cracks me up. Fair enough. Gotta laugh at yourself. Uh, Drew and I do all the time. Not to be cliche, but love the podcast. Hey, being kind is not cliche. Your personal insights and experiences provide such relatable and hopeful perspective. Thank you. Um, I haven't did it anyway. I'm a flight attendant with bad generalized anxiety disorder. What a hilarious job to have while suffering from GAD. My job is always subject to change, and I commute from airport to airport, so I have the added stress of catching flights before working my flights. Last night I could not sleep before my very early trip. I had to be up at 3:30 a.m. and at midnight I was stressing, heart pounding, shaky, wired, etc. You know the drill. I was so tempted to drop to drop the trip or call off. Like very tempted. My anxiety was so bad that once my alarm went off, I almost threw up. Although throughout my getting ready process, I was heavily entertaining calling off the trip because of my anxiety. I put on your podcast. As I listened to your personal triumphs, I kept telling myself, take the anxiety with you. You then played a Did It Anyway. Heading the success story from another person working through it settled my very competitive resolve. It was so inspirational. I'm now on my commuting flight to my base where I'll work where I will work my trip and I am doing it. Anyway, that was a yell. Thank you for what you do. It is making a difference, and I'm determined to look for people on today's trip who may be struggling and try to take the focus off myself. Thank you again so very much. That's from Jessica. Oh, good job, Jess. Love it. Love it. I like that as well. Using that experience to help others as well. Because you get every flight has very anxious flyers, and you'd be the perfect person to help, you know. Oh, you know, we get it, and I know what it feels like. You know, you you you're alright here. So well done. That's lovely. Yeah, I'm a big fan of that.

SPEAKER_04 34:41

Should we do um questions? We got any questions?

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Uh yeah, I've got a good one here. Um something we've not covered before, but it's a really good one and may resonate with people. Um hey guys, me again. I have a question that I don't think has been answered that is probably widely applicable. I'm religious and tend to pray when I'm anxious, but it occurred to me that the very prayers I pray may drive my anxious tendencies. Sometimes, while in prayer, it feels like it turns to rumination. Then when prayers go unanswered, it seems to be a cue for anxious thoughts. I'm trying to find the balance between my OCD and Gad while also not abandoning my faith as an avoidance behavior. Is this common amongst anxious people who are religious?

SPEAKER_04 35:33

Ooh, that's a really good question. Um I kind of think it is a little bit. Uh where the listen, the faith is a strength. If you have a strong faith, that's fine. You can use it. I'm a fan of that. But sometimes I do hear people feel like they get stuck in it a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Yeah, I mean, there's actually I I've worked a lot with people with OCD and who are of faith. Um, and and part of the of what we need to do there is unpick what is a compulsion uh and what is actually what non-anxious me would do in terms of or anxious people praying, that's okay. But when you know it's an offshoot of disordered anxiety, particularly obsessed obsessive and compulsive, suddenly prayer can become compulsive. You know, there's a difference between praying because you're worried about something and doing it in a way where you know you're sharing it, you're asking for strength, you're asking for whatever it is you use prayer for. Yeah, but what you've got to watch out for is if you're using prayer to shortcut fear of fear and OCD-style anxiety, that can become quite compulsive.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

And then on the flip side, you asked, but if I abandon my faith, it's avoidance favorite. No, you don't need to abandon your faith. No, no, no, no. Um, I would always address people is just to work on the relationship you have with uh elements of your faith. So, you know, if you are gonna pray, pray at a time that is not involved with you being on the OCD hamster wheel. Yeah. Because it just gets enmeshed within it within it. I heard those. Okay, I'm sorry I was stepping on you.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

You can step on me all you want. Oh, ooh, that's hot. Um no, I I think the uh I heard really good advice from I know I can't think of her name now. I'm so sorry on Instagram. She is a she's a pastor and she's also an OCD therapist. And I remember I saw her talking about the that relationship between prayer and compulsion. And one good bit of advice was definitely not abandon the faith or abandon your prayer. Can you tell the difference between what your prayers look like now and what they look like when you're not triggered or anxious or what they used to look like before you developed this problem? That's a good thing to try to connect to. Like you would pray for assistance or for strength or whatever or or inspiration, that's fine, but you didn't keep going. You knew when the prayers were over. And sometimes in anxious people don't know when it's over and they feel like they have to keep going. Let me go back to it again. And if you're if the frequency of the of your praying has is increasing, if the duration of your prayer sessions are increasing, achieve and I thought that was great advice. Like those are the things you can maybe work on. You don't have to stop praying and abandon your faith. Just know when you're prolonging it, or you're doing it very often, or you're doing it because you're triggered and you instantly respond with prayers.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Yeah. I a good one, I remember it's coming back to me now. Um, someone shared with me like their prayer, and they had OCD, and their prayer was Dear God, etc. Yeah. Um, please help me to give me the strength and the courage to lean into uncertainty to help me fight my fear of fear, yeah, and to help me and to guide me through to the other side whilst I lean into uncertainty. I thought, oh, I love that. That's a really good prayer. You know what that is?

SPEAKER_04 38:54

That's um that's like a positive self-talk that people say, well, you always say positive self-talk, don't do it. No, no, no. Like positive self-talk that frames and informs your next action is great, and that's faith-based positive self-talk. I freaking love that.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah, and it's really I can I can't be uh any more passionate than recovery requires you getting the credit as well. And this even applies to this sometimes because yes, we can thank people on the way to helping them. So whether it's your therapist, whether it's us guys, whether it's when you've been and praying and and and and using faith, that's great. And they could all be aids to help you, but ultimately you've got to get the credit so the brain can know that ah, yes, it is me that can tolerate this uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Yeah, yeah. That's a good question. I'm glad the person brought that up. Um, and sometimes it gets a little dicey too, because I know what I've I've I've said that sort of thing before, and we're not trying to like invalidate somebody's faith because I've heard people then respond with it's a whole other discussion, we'll have another episode, but no, no, no, no, no. I want my higher power or my the focus of my faith to get the credit. And if that is what you want, you're allowed to choose that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Yeah, I mean, if you want to do that, yeah. Um, but you have to get at most of the credit or at least some. Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Um, we have one more question. I think this is a little bit of a back-to-basics question, but it's never wrong to go back to that. And I the thing I love about this question, it's an audio question, I'll play it now, is it will sound so familiar to so many people, and I love that this person shared their experience so clearly, and I think with some detail. So let's listen to the question and then we'll address it.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I'm from Wales in the UK. I have been over-anxious for decades, uh, struggled through working, having children, run severely handicapped, divorced, etc. etc. I mention this because I don't feel I'm not courageous underneath. But I have allowed the severe anxiety to keep bringing me to my knees. I hate it, I can't stand it, and it frightens me so much. I do always try to surrender and not react, but the sensations are so overpowering, especially the death thought, that it seems to cancel out everything I'm trying to do. I know hating, loathing, etc. is the wrong attitude, but when I'm trying to be normal and shaking from head to foot, legs buckling and feeling faint, I just can't seem to tell myself that this is okay. I hate myself for not cracking it. My question is, is there any way in which I can cope with this better? Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

So that is a back to basics question, but I so appreciate this person sharing this because if there's 6,000 people listening this week, I guarantee that at least two of them are like, yes, it all goes out the window when I'm triggered. I forget what I'm supposed to do. I can't do it. I hear surrender, but I can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Good question, you know, surrender willfully tolerate stuff. Why first thing I'd say here is go easy on yourself. And actually, you've already displayed courage, even just sharing that out uh, you know, with with us, I really appreciate that. Um you look for me, this sounds like a very Craig the Critic problem, and you're and there's such a it's become such anxiety has become such a huge thing, like a barrier you must overcome. When you said they're like, I hate it, you know. Whereas for me, it's like I I I I sometimes you surrender, but if you surrender to it, you feel like you've lost. And I can feel like in your in your voice, you're like, no, no. But here's the thing, this is why I love willful tolerance, is that you've already done half of it, you've tolerated it. So you're halfway there. We work on the willful things, so it and that becomes something like, no, I I don't hate you, I don't like you. I feel not like I'm gonna try and feel very little towards you.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

Um, I'd also as well get it. I'm in the UK, the the mental health care here isn't is uh not great for a lot of things, it's great for certain things, but not great usually for this type of anxiety, uh, unless you're lucky. Um I would honestly some of the kind find uh like a nice private therapist who's affordable, who's anxiety disorder informed, but also to kind of maybe unpick some Craig the Critic stuff there. Because we all go through life, and if this has become a thing that's like overshadowing your life, it will become overwhelming. It'll be like, oh no, I must beat this. This is great. And I'm just sensing a tone of an undertone of self criticism there. Yeah. I think you've got you've you've done half the work, you've tolerated it. We just switch it to willful, you know, and it I know it doesn't feel very nice. I know it's consuming, but you are in charge, you know, and don't try to aim for perfection. It's just a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_04 44:08

It could be a targeting issue, also. Um, first of all, what you're saying is really right. Because then there's fear, then there's the fear of fear, that's the disordered state. And now there's the fear of fear is failure, which then drives will trigger more. I can't let this happen, so boom, it's gonna happen. And I think one of the things is, you know, I know hating it is not the right thing to do. No, no, no. Give yourself a break. You're allowed to hate it. I freaking hated my anxiety, still do. It's okay to hate it. It is annoying, it is a break. Yeah, it's super annoying. You're allowed to have emotions toward it, hate it, like resent it. Have all of those. That's not failure. And I think the other thing would be, but when I am, she said, when my legs are shaking and I'm having the death thought and you know, my and I'm shaking all over, I can't seem to tell myself that's the wrong target. You're right. In that situation, first of all, the fact that you're shaking is not the problem. So I think this person might be thinking that, oh, I'm so I can't seem to surrender because I'm still shaking and terrified. No, the point is to get better at shaking and terrified, which sounds I hate to tell people that, but that's true. And it lets yourself off the hook a little bit. So when you find that you're like, well, I know I'm supposed to surrender, I'm not supposed to hate it, I'm supposed to like willfully welcome it. No, no, you can hate it, you can not like it, you can want it to go away, that's totally fine. But once you're triggered, it's like, okay, my job now is to get really good at feeling this way. That's a very different job, and you're doing it just that you think you're doing it wrong because you can't make it go away or stop. You're not supposed to make it go away, you're supposed to make it run its course. So notice that, reconnect to that mission because that is a really a big craignocritic driver there. Oh, isn't if I accept it goes away, right? Oh, but I'm not doing it right. I can't crack it because it I'm still shaking and afraid, or having death thoughts. Yeah, you just got to get better at having those thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

That helps.

SPEAKER_04 45:51

So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Thanks for sending that in as well. And and and your open and honesty about it, we really appreciate it. Yeah, very helpful. So and if you'd like to send in any listeners, you want to send in questions or did it anyways, you can record it or disorder.fm. It's really easy. Or you can drop us an email. We do read them. Sorry, we can't get back to all of them, um, but we do read them and we do really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 46:12

Yeah, I would add that if you send us one, this one was months old. So if you don't hear it right away, we're going through a lot of them, so you never know. Um, we might answer your question even though you asked it months and months ago.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

So yeah. Uh final note. Yep. Um by the time this episode drops, uh, it's gonna be very close uh in the US for this book. It's coming out in the US just slightly before the UK. And how does that make you feel? Go grab yourself a copy. Um if you pre-order it before the release date, I will stand by my promise of answering your questions. If you have sent in your proof of purchase, I will get back to you. Yeah. You know, I've just had a few, so it takes time, but I will send you the answer to your question. And thank you for supporting me.

SPEAKER_04 46:54

100%. If you want more info about Josh's book or see what order it, just go to disorder.fm slash 47, which is the show notes for this episode, and I'll make sure there's a link there.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Can we have uh the inwards compulsion music? You want that?

SPEAKER_04 47:04

Yeah, we 100% can have that. I'm gonna play it live. Let's just do it. I will remind you as you listen to the ridiculous inward compulsion 80s theme music as we head out of this episode. If you get a second, maybe write us a nice review or leave a five-star rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts because it really helps disordered. It helps more people find the podcast. We get to help more people. And uh yeah, thanks for all of your uh support. Thanks for listening, and we will see you guys next week. Enjoy the music.