Anxiety and Compulsive Wellness (Episode 48)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

The compulsion to use wellness to control how you feel all the time could become problematic.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Why am I doing this? Am I doing this to give my overall mood a better chance throughout the day? Or am I doing this to try to neutralize all feelings of fear and uncertainty to make me feel better? And that's an important question that you should ask yourself.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

The difference is that for a person who's in a non-disordered state or is not dealing with chronic anxiety, the wellness is not an imperative, it becomes a tool.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Wellness and compulsive wellness becomes counterproductive when it's a part of your resistance to feelings of anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

If I can just optimize my body and then I will minimize the chances of ever being anxious or having a relapse or feeling bad in any way.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

This is episode 48 entitled Anxiety and Compulsive Wellness. I am Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media, and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders based in Manchester in the UK.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training, also specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the US. I am also an author and a podcaster on this topic, an educator, and a former sufferer for many years of anxiety disorders, OCD, and depression.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Drew, I feel perfect today, and I've eradicated all of my anxiety because I got into an ice bath at 5 a.m. after listening to Joe Rogan, and I had a kale smoothie. And then I've not had a single drop of alcohol or fat or saturated fat. And I've meditated atop a mountain. My I've oh I'm also doing the uh uh the ketosis diet. Um many what other wellness things I've been doing. Anyway, I did all that, and now I'm anxiety free.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

What would you say to me? I would say that good job. I made sure that I got up at 4 17 a.m. exactly. I faced the sun perfectly and made sure it was on both my face and my shoulders. And yeah, you know, I I I think I think this is going to be a slightly controversial episode, and we promised ourselves we wouldn't get into ranting, but I think it does tie in. The the compulsion to use wellness to control how you feel all the time could become problematic. Being healthy is cool, nothing wrong with being healthy, but uh sometimes it goes off the rails.

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah, and I think we'll use this episode to differentiate what is wellness, particularly from the perspective of people with anxiety disorders. Obviously, look after yourself, and that's what we're gonna look at today.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Um, but in in general, the because our community can slip into compulsions and fixation and obsessions, uh it's gonna be a really important episode to try and pick between what's compulsive and what's just doing it for your overall well-being. You know, why it we'll answer the question. Get you to answer the question, why am I doing this? Am I doing this to give my overall mood a better chance throughout the day? Or am I doing this to try to neutralize all feelings of fear and uncertainty to make me feel better? And that's an important question that you should ask yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

Yeah, recovery. Preemptive wellness, you know, is the thing. We'll talk about that for sure. Should we just start with the did it anyway? It's always fun to celebrate the community a bit, right? Yeah, that sounds good. What have we got today? Uh let's see. We got Kaylin who said it was okay to use her name. Let's hear what she has to say because it's good.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Hey Josh, hey Drew. This is Kaylin from Texas. You can use my name. I am a new sufferer of anxiety. This has only been going on for about six months. I had my first panic attack in June and spiraled pretty aggressively and very quickly into a disorder. I was unable to be alone, had horrible monophobia. Um, that being the main one, and just ruminating over everything. Um, I dug into you guys' podcast and realized that this is what I want to do. I want to do it this way. And I it was hard and it was rough. And when I have anxiety, just pushing through and carrying on with my day, and just remembering like I can still be a mom and I can be a wife, and I can do all the things I did before, and I can be who I was before with anxiety, and it's been great. My life has basically returned back to normal with this little extra sprinkle, but I'm able to deal with it, and I'm able to accept it and continue on with my day. I'm just really happy to be back to me. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Yeah. How good is that? It's really good. Um, I love her little extra sprinkle, how she's reduced anxiety too. There's a little extra sprinkle in my life, but that's okay. I can handle that.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Oh, I like that. Yeah, because often and when we both started with our anxiety disorders, it was very you know, you hear these con these common words like spiraled, a typhoon of anxiety, uh storm. And now it to the Kaylin, it's well, there's a bit of a sprinkle. Yeah, nothing's changed, but most of it is the relationship to it. Yeah and and the more your relationship changes with anxiety, um, the less important it becomes. And then our good old friend the amygdala stops firing off as much as it as it wants to. 100%. Amygdala.

SPEAKER_01 5:53

There he is, he's always here. I I think this plays into the our topic of for today, too, because you know, in this situation, uh Kaylin, I'm sure she doesn't want to be anxious, but she's able to say, Well, it exists in my life as a little extra, not a feature, a sprinkle, it's just part of my life, and I can live with that, I can handle that, as opposed to fine, I need to find ways to eradicate it and be optimized and always be perfectly feeling. So she's she does not gone down that road, which is nice.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

She's erased the resistance, you know, but she's great, and it follows on nicely to our topic today. Yep. Wellness and compulsive wellness becomes counterproductive when it's a part of your resistance to feelings of anxiety. And copper has to weigh in, I guess. Of course he does. Well, he's against the compulsive toxic wellness culture. Um he's very against it. He repels against it. You're not you're not talking about those uh those uh those green supplements again, are you?

SPEAKER_01 6:54

No, I tried to give them to him, but he didn't want to wake up early and sit in the sun, so he's compelling it now. At a certain angle, yes, that's exactly right. Um but I would agree, compul wellness can become a compulsion just like anything else can. And um it's interesting because it it we talked about compulsive recovery at one point in the past. I don't remember which episode that was. It was early on. But I think this is uh broadening that definition. And in a way, I think that sometimes compulsive wellness becomes not so much an eradication thing, like I'm gonna use wellness to get rid of my anxiety, but sometimes it becomes preventive or preventative. Like if I can just optimize my body and be perfectly well all the time, then I will minimize the chances of ever being anxious or having a relapse or feeling bad in any way. So sometimes I hear people use it in a little different way. In the moment, wellness doesn't help you because when you're super anxious, no amount of kale in that moment is going to fix the people know that, you know. But I think the idea that kale, I'm gonna pick on kale the whole time because I just don't like kale. And if you love kale, come at me. I don't know what to tell you. Opinions are allowed. What's up with kale? Have you not ever like just ovened it so it gets crispy? Put a bit of olive oil and salt on it. Oh, it's banging. Listen, if the kale lobby is here, if the lobbyist for kale is in the audience, I apologize. I've tried it all, I just can't get into kale. It's just a vial.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Not even that's the only way I'll eat it when it's like kale crisps.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Yeah, yeah. That's yeah, I've had all that all my kale loving friends like you, like just put it in the oven, man, sprinkle some seasoning on it, put a little olive oil. It's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

I'm like, I think we're gonna have to I think we're gonna have to finish disordered after that controversial. That's good. Sorry, it's the last episode of the podcast and that one longer. Uh yeah, I know you mean what why is it I spoke about the differentiation before? Why is it so important? Because actually, why is it okay for people with conventional anxiety? So people who aren't obsessed with their anxiety. So actually, for people when I work, I work with people with conventional anxiety, um, and they're stressed with work, stuff at home, maybe they've addressed non-addressed things from their past, maybe they're going through some change, uh, maybe they're, you know, there's they're going through a lot, maybe there's some bad habits. Sometimes I will say, you know what, let's focus on wellness and see how that makes you feel better. But these are people that aren't prone to going inwards and fearing the state of fear and anxiety itself. These are people that I've just catching myself anxious and I can't sleep, and I'm ruminating about all these problems external from me. And sometimes they will feel better. They're like, actually, you know what? I took time to go to the gym afterwards and did my CrossFit class, and and I've been eating a bit healthier. And you know what? I have noticed that my mood is better and I'm less anxious. I think people in the disordered community will sometimes see that and try to replicate it. But why is it different?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

I think it's different. And as someone who's been on both sides of that equation, I would say that the difference is that for a person who's in a non-disordered state or is not dealing with chronic anxiety, maybe it's externally generated, they understand it's because of life events, like you said. The wellness is not an imperative, it becomes a tool. So, like, okay, I try to eat a little better and I try to get to bed a little earlier, and I make personal time to play my video games or read books or listen to music and relax. All really good things to do. I would encourage everybody to do that. But it's not an imperative. So for people that fall into a disordered state, that tends to become imperative. I must do this, and if I don't, bad things are gonna happen to me. That's the difference. That was a very good answer.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

I mean, what once in a once every 12 episodes you come out with some after. I drop Apple Pencil. Yeah, yeah. It's when it's when it feels like and and it crawls into your belief system that wellness, compulsive wellness is imperative. Yeah, I think that's I think that's that's brilliant. Uh yeah, like and it it's done with the done with a sense of immediacy and urgency. I must do this now. Um do you still meditate, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I do every day.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah, I meditate.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Why do you meditate? Meditation for me is uh it's a break. Sometimes it's just simple as it's a break. It's just a mental break. Gives me, and I do little two and three minute breaks throughout the day. If I'm having a particularly busy day, it's just a nice break. Um, but also it helps me hone my focus skills so that when I do have an anxious moment or I'm in under stress, I can choose where to put my attention and move through that. Not that it makes it go away, but it helps me stay focused on what I know I need to be focused on. So it's a it's like going to the gym for my brain to a certain extent.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Like a way, I like that. Like your your attention, your mind is a muscle. Okay, I'll gonna ask you something else. Sure. And I know the answer is, and I know a lot of people have tried this. Did you try to meditate when you're in the midst of an anxiety disorder?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Oh my goodness. Did I try to meditate? I can remember very clearly one day I had a my my GP, my general practitioner, my doctor, who was excellent in staying with me when I was going through my antidepressant withdrawal and whatnot. I would go see him multiple times a week. He insisted because he was very concerned about me, which was great. He was very supportive. And I remember being just so anxious and panicking, just getting at the door to try to go see him. And like my wife would have to drive me or whatever it was. I remember once being late to a uh appointment with him because I was sitting in my bedroom with the door closed with like Enya. No joke, no like Enya, Enya's cool. But I love Enya.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

I don't know why I'm laughing.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

It's just but the way I was using Enya, I had Enya C D on, and I was trying to meditate away my fear. And my brain, this guy was like, What are you kidding? He was rolling his eyes at me, like, really, dude? No, it ain't gonna work, and it didn't.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Say away, say away.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

Watch it. Well, it's off of Superman. Even Enya had no power over my mind.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

We we'd play it, but we don't want to get nailed for copyright. So there we go.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

Yeah, and Enya is amazing, but she had no, she could do nothing about my fear in that moment. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 12:54

Yeah, yeah, but it but there's the difference. So, what's the difference? And this is the point that I'd like to convey in this episode, is right what's the difference between you meditating then and now?

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Oh, the it's that imperative thing again. Now that I think about that, I like to do it. I like to do it, but if I can't do it, and I never do it in response to I'll do it in response to like, uh, you know what, for the last hour my shoulder's been up around my my ears and I'm rushing through everything and I'm getting pissed off and annoyed. Let me just take a little break. That's why I do it. I don't and you know what? If I don't feel any better afterwards, oh well, okay. I have no expectations of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah. I I have a similar um relationship with attention training and things like that, where um which is just a form of meditation as well. It's like guiding your attention uh and and focus. Uh and with attention training, um back in the midst of like being really anxious and panicky, I'd be like, I must, I must do this because it's good for me. Uh but it was reactionary because I wanted to erase and shortcut the feelings, whereas now it's like a muscle. Like when I do attention training, I'm like, okay, this is just as important as pumping the guns in the gym. It's like this is an attention muscle, and I'm gonna try and do that there. So the flexibility of my attention is better in times of stress and anxiety, and and that's there's a reason why. But I did fall into the compulsive wellness trap of honesty, oh I guess. Did you ever do that? Yeah, I'm almost like laughing, like not laughing, because I there's people that probably um will do this and I've tried this, and and I I've been there, I'm with you on that. But I was I was cutting out gluten, even though I'm not a celiac because I read on some forum that gluten can contribute to feelings of anxiety. It's like, come on, man. And and I said to you before, and then if there's a if there's a phrase or a or a quote from me anyway, in this episode, it's probably not as good as as Drew's imperative. But if there's a phrase and quote from this episode to take away, it's it was from someone who I spoke to work with coach years ago, and she said, I I realized something because I had an epiphany. I can recover from an anxiety disorder whilst eating a cheeseburger. And okay, it's not play-doh, but I was like, wow, that makes so much sense. Because it's symbolically, yes, you can, you can do it, and you don't have to, and it's just like I could sit on a bench and and have and have a cheeseburger, and and and I could still do my willful tolerance. And going back to our episode on who gets the credit, which is one of the most, I think one of the most important episodes along with the attitude shift, um, is that you get the credit. It wasn't the I'm not gonna bash Kale. Yeah, it wasn't this, it wasn't a super green smoothie. Yep. You know, it wasn't that probiotic that you had, it was you. It was you that tolerated it. So the brain rewires itself and it's like, ah, actually, you did it. It wasn't all these support things, and compulsive wellness can end actually end up getting the credit. Now it gets the credit for your mood. So now actually, I look at I like to look after myself, so I'll do these things and I'll go for a run and meditate and all these things. Great for my overall mood, away from anxiety disorders. Yeah, do these things, rest, go to the gym, yeah, that's great. But I'm not doing it compulsively to shortcut my way out of feeling uncomfortable and uncertain.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yeah, I love the cheeseburger quote. If Plato had cheeseburgers, he might have said that if they had cheeseburgers, but maybe they had them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

I told you my favorite Plato quote though, like through his um when he's writing down transcribing Socrates and all like thousands of years ago. Uh, you know, there's like a page or two pages written in stone, and there's just one entry one week or one day, and it's just one line, and it is he who invented beer was a clever man, and that's it. So I just imagine Plato went on this, not Plato, yeah, it went on this massive sesh, and he was just like swaying uh you know in this Epicurean garden, like he was clever, and that's all he could muster for that day. That's all I got. Sorry, guys. This is all I got. And then he went and then he got a kebab on the way home and went.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

But you can recover while eating cheeseburgers. One of the uh the admins in my old Facebook group uh who was so helpful and I I owe such a debt of gratitude, she would say all the time, because people would ask, you know, about that fermented foods, you know, I can I don't need to have the thrice fermented kimchi to recover, you know. We've we've picked on that too, but which is mentioned in and how does that make you feel? Yeah, it's is it in there?

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Thrice fermented February the 2027th in the US and March the 14th in the UK. Buy it, be cool.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Sure of the city. But she would say all the time, she would answer those things with like I I almost a pride in the fact that I recovered on candy bars and cigarettes. You know, I mean, I don't think she wants to live on candy bars and cigarettes, but she would know, like, I didn't do any special diet, and guess what? I was still able to teach my brain new lessons. Now, would she physically felt better eating a little better?

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, maybe we could argue that, but you know, it's not and when you're talking about it from getting the credit point of view, she knows that the cigarette is not good for her. Yeah, if anything, it's a stimulant, yep, yep, and the candy can be a stimulant, and so it's the opposite of sitting there clutching your electrolyte drink just in case the anxiety gets worse or whatever. No, it's the if anything, in the short term, you're actually doing some better brain rewiring because those things aren't getting the credit. Now, don't get me wrong, we're not condoning some you know, poor diet and smoking, but in that moment, it's so important to be like, no, only I am left to get the credit here.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

And I think you can look at like uh how the imperative is a thing that I'll keep coming back to, but how dogmatic do you start to get? I'm not saying that you are generally a dogmatic person, but sometimes people will latch on to these compulsive wellness trends, especially if they've seen them on social media from people who have big platforms and big audiences, and they take them as gospel then. This is a fact. I've been in arguments about fermented foods. Like, and I can go back and say, like, well, look, we we have a bunch of research here in the literature that shows that in in populations where they have a high percentage of fermented foods in their diets, they don't have any lower incident of the same disorders we're talking about. They're equal, they're the same. But it didn't matter. Yes, it didn't matter to them. And I went, I had to go in and say, okay, I understand you feel so strongly about this. And they were this person was emotionally attached to this is a gut biome problem, and you fix it with fermented foods while they were in a Facebook group asking how to get better. So, you know, you look at the dichotomy, it's a strange situation. Like, I thought you found the solution. I'm not picking on that person, but you could see where the compulsion for that came in.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Yeah, and they want it to be true. Don't get me wrong, there is evidence about gut biomes and stuff like that, but you want it to be right because as humans, we want to find that quick solution. That's what our brains do, and that's why we get swept up in anxiety disorders, because I mentioned the word before, shortcut. So if you ask yourself, if you ask yourself, am I doing this compulsively or am I doing this for my overall wellness? My advice to you is to then ask yourself, am I doing this to shortcut my anxious feelings or am I doing it for longer term me? If it's the first one, it's compulsive. It's if it's the second one, go ahead, go and do it. And I think that's the way out of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

I like the uh what if I didn't do that test? Like, what if I didn't have I used to every I've talked about this every morning? I would get into the office and make, you know, get the hot water out of the water thing that made the hot water and have my natural calm magnesium supplement and my green tea. And it was vile, dude. It was vile, it was horrible. Well, green tea has caffeine in. Well, it was decaffee, of course it was decaffeinated green tea. Oh, yeah, you check you checked that with protein. Yeah, of course. I practically sent it to a lab for chemical analysis because caffeine, no, I can't have it. But it was nasty, but I ritualized that and it was so compulsive for me to do that. This magnesium, it was an article called The Miracle of Magnesium. This shit works, right? Yeah, it didn't do anything because I started doing the test of well, what if I don't have that this morning? And I would have a couple of mornings where I don't have it, and I would get nervous because I felt like it was protecting me. And then I discovered, oh wait, I didn't, it wasn't actually doing anything. It was getting the credit, it was totally getting the credit, and I wasn't having any different days anyway. I was still struggling through my days, but somehow my mind I thought I'm still struggling, but I would be struggling more if I didn't drink my magnesium.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah, yeah, and you get that with any object, didn't you? How often do we hear about the magic bottle of water? I can't leave with that or my bag of sweets, even though I'm not diabetic. Obviously, if you're diabetic, have a source of sugar with you. Uh, but you know, where the all these random objects and things were getting the credit, uh, and we all have them, and it's About taking them away a little bit at a time. Even the realm of compulsive wellness, which I think is just the message we'd like you to take away today. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Um, and you know what? I let's do I know we're not going to get into a rant, and I'm not trying to trigger a ranting.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

No, we'll do we'll do ranting later on.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

We'll do that. But I think it's important in this episode to at least recognize the environment that we all live in now. In 2023, social media is a powerful tool. And I'm not picking on social media, I'm not ranting against it, I'm not trying to be get off my lawn guy, but when you just want to feel better, which believe me, I'll speak for Josh on this. We want you to feel better too. And we know you want to just feel better quickly. We are in such a, I was in such a vulnerable state back then. I'll speak for myself. If the amount of the avalanche of wellness information was available in 2008 as it is now, I don't know. And I'm a pretty discerning dude, but I would have easily been caught up in a lot of different things for sure. I got caught up in magnesium. That was very easy for me to get caught up in. And but right now you can be buried every day in air quote expert advice on that. And it can be we're vulnerable to it. So just be aware, that's all. We're not gonna rant about it or pick on anybody, but this helps fuel that. We have to at least acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah, and well, you you're being kind and very diplomatic. There's a lot of crap out there, and there's a lot of people spreading misinformation. Never lose your critical lens, even with Drew and I. And if you do message us disorder.fm, be like, you know, I don't really agree with that. And we'd love to hear it because that's what we want to hear. Yeah, uh, but just be careful what you absorb, because there's many people in this in the social media sphere, there's a lot of just nonsense out there, and particularly from by people who are not anxiety disorder informed, you know. Uh, because I think people, when they hear the word anxiety, they just think you know, and getting anxiety, you know, it's it's it's almost like it's it's a word that we've become desensitized to collectively, like the word trauma. Yeah, you know, like it's nothing like some people trauma's massive, like grief, witnessing trauma, stuff like that. And for other people, it's like something mildly inconvenient was a trauma. And so we'll and as a therapist, we've got to like unpick these and and help people have a more relationship to it. Yeah, um, but in general, just be careful. And I know it sounds like we're coming down from the mountain with our tablets being self-righteous, virtuous, um, ponces, but always never lose that critical lens, even for us as well. Um and we'd love to hear you feel we do hear feedback as well. We have some some good stuff, and uh we take it on board.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, for sure. I think it just feeds into a little bit of the idea, you know, if we're gonna talk about compulsive wellness, a person might ask, well, how do I know if I'm engaging in compulsive wellness? Well, one of the signs I think would be how many wellness accounts am I following on different platforms? And do I ever find myself super confused? I don't know who to listen to. I've heard people say that to me. This person says I'm supposed to use celery juice, this person says tart cherry, this person says magnesium, this person. Oh, that guy I'll pick on. That's the medical medium. He says celery juice fixes stuff.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Well, yeah, and and about he bottle bottles it and sells it as well.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

And he has all kinds of and everything. But even and and I think this becomes that vulnerability is really smart people who, in retrospect, look back and say, I cannot believe that I gave that any kind of credence because he claims he gets that information from spirits from the future. So it's conveniently unconfirmable, other than if you're him.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

I almost got to the end of this episode without being angry. Stop it. Yeah, and I'm gonna refuse to do that to you. You'll go I don't even think he exists. You're just trying to poke the bell. I am. I'm just trying to give you a chance. There's a guy from the future who says he envisaged that every something that's gonna cure all your ailments is celery juice.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Celery juice. Here's it's he's not from the future, he's from here now, but he speaks to a spirit from the future. Stop tells him, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

I'm burying this in now. He's getting angrier by the second. No, I just oh my god. And people lap it up because again, people want to shortcut because they're human. Yeah, but right. They want to I'd have lapped it up. In fact, there was one I did. I'm not being high and mighty here. I remember in the midst of my scariness, there was a I'm not gonna mention him by name, but there was a discredited I think it was psychiatrist or therapist, not sure. And he went on this huge kind of crusade saying that we all need to be um rubbing this cream on us for the what's the what's the not test progesterone? Oh, okay, yeah. And he was discredited because he made his own progesterone cream and you rub it into your hand because there's a there's an imbalance of hormones, and when you rub it onto your skin and all that, and it was actually out, it's still outlawed in West Coast or in parts of America, I know this for certain, yeah, where that much progesterone is actually can cause like problems, cancerous sticks. And he and he's like, No, I swear by it, and he and he stands on this hill, and I and I'm like, dude, you you've got to kind of sit and wake up a little bit here, like it's not cool, man. Your cream is not gonna cure anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

And if you find yourself in those things, it's not you didn't do anything wrong. You're just you just want to feel better, but it's a good test. Am I confused because I'm listening to so many wellness messages and I don't know which one I'm supposed to follow, who do I trust on this? That might be a situation. And if you feel so important, this is so important, I need to find who I who I can trust. I think, listen, as as a gym rat, I could say, well, listen, I I have four different people I could point to that have different theories of progressive overload and building muscle. If I all right, let me try that and I get it wrong, it's not a disaster in my life. I've wasted six months of training for an anxious person.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

If they go to the wrong person and get it wrong, it's a disaster, and it exacerbates feelings of hopelessness, and there's another solution, and I hear that a lot. And you know what? It's not your fault for doing this, but that's why we love psychoeducation. Yeah. Um, also, we're going. Please uh subscribe to our monthly round of disordered celery juice so that you can get it every Monday, and there's just pictures of me and Drew going big mugs. We're gonna call it, we're gonna call it Drew. Yes, uh celery Drew. Um, uh yeah, no, uh, let's let's not do that. Um that's really annoying. Anyway, before I go on to the rant, I think we've communicated what we'd like to communicate, and we'll talk more about this at some point. Um, but I'd like to celebrate give attention to people that deserve it, not yes, I'm with us uh from the future. Uh okay, so I've got to did it anyway. It's a really nice one. It says, Hello from Australia, Josh and Drew. First, I just wanted to thank you both so much for what you do through this podcast. I go through patches where I struggle with panic attacks. And the first time this happened in 2021, I read Josh's book, Thank you, Untangle Your Anxiety. Um, thank you very much. You'll love the next one, shot, Josh, which was a really big help. I've recently started struggling with this anxiety on a daily basis again, and I've found your podcast, which has been really encouraging. Cool. I'm so excited to finally be able to submit my own dinner anyway. Last weekend, my husband and I went on a camping trip with friends in Australia as well. I wouldn't do that. I'm afraid of everything in Australia. Everything. Everything can kill you. Um, all the animals are dead. Sorry, carry on. It was the first time I've been camping in a long time. And as I mostly struggle with agro agriphobia and health anxiety, it felt like this was a big trigger in both these fields, as I was nervous about being away from home and further away from a hospital. I was a little bit uncomfortable on the first dayslash night, and on the second day, we climbed one of the nearby mountains, and at the top I had a really unpleasant panic attack, which is exactly what I had been nervous about. However, I tolerated those uncomfortable feelings, and I am so pleased now that I can look back at the weekend as a positive experience. Excellent. The thing I was terrified of happened to, and to be honest, it wasn't even that bad. The feelings passed, and I had a great day and a brilliant weekend overall. I hope this can be encouraging to others, as I always find myself so encouraged by other people's stories.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Oh, that's so good. By the way, you're not lying about Australia. Everything is totally dead.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Yeah, I mean Mike's uh no, there's there's avoidance I'm happy with.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

That's well well done.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, I love that. That that's amazing. I like that. It never anticipatory anxiety. We'll do an episode on anticipatory anxiety because that we could talk about that forever. Never the same. Uh, and also it originates from a different part of your brain, which is really interesting. It's gonna tell you you're gonna get to the top of the mountain, you're gonna scream and roll around begging for help, ringing nearby helicopters to come and save you. And then you're like, no, I'm just gonna tolerate these sensations. And you did. And yeah, uh, do you know what my favorite part was though? You look back and go, I'm glad I did that.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah, well done me. Yeah, it's always so par there's so many paradoxes in the recovery process. We talk about that all the time. But one of the paradoxes is you almost want the worst thing to happen. And but I the worst thing, I mean a panic attack, being anxious, having a scary thought. I don't mean, you know, actual bad things. Um because the lesson from that, and I give this person a lot of credit for taking the lesson. It wasn't that could easily have been interpreted as see, I had a panic attack on the top of the mountain, it happened. I never want to do this again. It was awful. As opposed to it was like, well, I'm here. There's nothing I can do, I'll have to write it out and take the lesson of like, oh, look, I did it. I did it. I got through that. Incredible. Love it. Yeah, very important. Well done. Well done. Uh, we have a couple of questions we can go over, I think. The questions are always nice to get. Um question I we'll do two questions. One of them came from well, this is a short answer question, so I'll do this one. Um, you both say that your, I'm not gonna say the person's name, you both say that your former sufferer is anxiety, and that's what I would like to be, obviously. But I have lived with this for so many years and have tried so many things, different types of therapy, meditation, exercise, blah, blah, blah, medication. Sometimes things need to help for a while or in certain situations, but it never lasts. It's real, is it really possible for everyone to become not anxious or at least less anxious? Or are some people just incurable? I know it's a depressing question. I'm just so tired of being this way. I get that. And I just don't see any hope anymore for really believing that I can ever get better. Thank you for your podcast, so forth and so on. That's a tough spot to be in. What do you think? Yeah, of course. Always.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Everyone can always get better. Um, you've got to be careful how you're measuring what better is, though. Is it possible to never be anxious again? No, everyone gets anxious. It's a healthy, excellent state to be in. But for people in your situation, you'll associate any anxiety as a form of fear, and then that can build and add secondary fear. Is it possible to remove secondary fear? Yes, and that's what you've got to point towards and aim towards. Don't put anxiety under one big umbrella in the sense that I must get rid of this umbrella. It's oh, what's that extra load? The secondary fear, the fear of fear, the phobia of fear itself. That's what you've got to work on. Can can you can you get rid of that? Yes, of course you can. You can get to a really good spot with it. You know, I I I still have my own challenges. I've got claustrophobia challenges that I'm still doing, but I I've come from a place of you know, not leaving my room, you know, and you can do that, and all these did it anyways uh suggest that you can do it. Just look at your game plan and look what success is, what are your metrics of success here? Because if you're all or nothing, black or white, any sign of anxiety is failure, then you're gonna go around in circles. Um, I also, this is a personal thing for me. I don't like to frame it as an illness. Yes, officially it is, and the DSM 5 and the nice guidelines, but I it helped me personally to not frame my phobia as an illness, you know, and the discomfort as an illness. Yeah, it, you know, in the short term, it will feel like that, but know that it's something that we can step out of uh the more we practice.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

Yeah, I would agree. I can't add a whole lot to that. I will just say that I'm not sure that we would be doing this podcast if we didn't both believe that everybody can improve their life, you know, and get better. Now, your definition of recovery, everybody gets to pick their own definition, but I I will echo what Josh says be very careful because when this person says it didn't last, that tends to indicate I was trying to find things that would stop the anxiety or help me control it or manage it. And when life breaks through because it will, and you're forced to confront the feelings that you hate, then sometimes it's easy to declare failure. And so you see it didn't work, then last, it's broken again.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

And a bit and a bit of compulsive wellness, perhaps as well. I mean, I'm just spec just speculating, but you know, it could be could be a bit of compulsive wellness, and that I'm trying these things, it lasts for a little bit, but then we keep checking to see if the if it's worked. Yeah, right. That just tells the brain that I still fear secondary fear.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yep, yeah, exactly right. But yes, we're both bringing there. And and I get how horrible you feel right now. I understand that. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, I get that. And uh, so thanks for that question. The other question actually came from my Instagram comment section. I mean, if you want to send in questions, you can always go to disorder.fm and send us email questions or voicemails. But this person commented on one of my Instagram posts, which is at the dot anxious truth. The dot anxious.truth, by the way. Uh it does, it sure does. Um, the guy that has it without the periods, man, one day I'll get it. But anyway, uh, this person said, I often have a hard time differentiating between if it's anxiety or if I'm really under threat. How do I tell that it's whether it's just anxiety or there really is danger? What would you say to that?

SPEAKER_02 36:02

It's the same response. So it's gonna you're gonna feel doubt.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

The whole purpose of anxiety is to make you doubt. Because when you doubt, you become hyper-alert and hyper-aware for potential dangers. And it's better to be alert, hyper-aware uh for potential dangers because the one time it's right out of a thousand, ten thousand, it saves your life. So it's better to be wrong 99% of the time, but for the 1%, it keeps you alive. So, how do you discern? No, what you the first step is I'm gonna feel doubtful, but this is where I'm gonna go. I'm gonna tap into my rational mind, or has Sally Winston and Mike Steve call it wise mind. Wise mind, yeah. I'm gonna tap into wise mind and I'm gonna lean into the probability here. Okay, I'm studying Walmart and I feel like there's a gun to my head, but wise mind says, the chances of that or the roof caving in right now are so infinitesimally small, I'm gonna just say that this is a false alarm. Yeah, and I'm gonna behave and use with my behavior to show my brain that this isn't a threat, and then it gets easier the more you do that. But are you ever gonna be 100% sure that this isn't a threat? No, because that's the whole point of the brain. Your brain's just doing its job. It was amazing for our ancestors, it kept us alive, it got us to the top of the food chain because we could were able to plan, think, and anticipate threats. But yeah, no, I'm gonna presume 99% of your life is threat-free. Uh, obviously, it's different if you're in an environment that has actual threats, you know, that's different if you're in an abusive household or if you're being bullied, or you know, maybe you're managing some chronic conditions that require you to be like, oh, actually, maybe this is a threat. Of course, it's a little bit different, but it's up to you to kind of build that probability and then let that inform your behavioral decision next.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, I think the focus, if you're not sure whether it's your anxiety or an actual threat, where is your focus? Is the focus on how you feel, or isn't the focus on the thing that's causing how you feel? If you are focused on how you feel and then you're looking for why you feel that way, that's a really big clue that it's internally generated and it is anxiety. People who are under actual threat would be usually able to understand, like, oh yes, I'm having a heart. I have, I have a medical condition that I need to be aware of. They understand that this is making me anxious, or you know, I'm in a dangerous situation, or there's a there's a storm headed my way, it's a tornado in my neighborhood, I'm anxious, I'm afraid. They don't question why they're anxious or afraid. They can tell, or there's stuff going on in my life, or I'm under a lot of stress. If you can't find it, just that you feel really bad, so you think you have to search for why you feel that bad, if you have to search for why you feel that way, there's a really good chance that it's just your anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Of course. And also, yeah, there'll be a part of your brain searching for it for you that's out of your control. Very meta. Yeah, but you can kind of drag it this way. Like, no, I'm all right. That's why it feels so scary to turn your back on things, right? What if, just in case? Oh my god, maybe you should avoid because it's you, your rational brain, um, kind of arguing with a threat response. Go with rational brain.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

That's why I use the term rolling the dice. Like for Josh and I, when pentamillion gone, and we see it that way. It's a five million-sided dice. So when we tell you to roll the dice, I don't see it as a rolling the dice for you at all. I know you're safe. But to the anxious person that turns their back on that doubt and decides to act in opposition to that, it feels like taking a huge, reckless risk. I get that. We always have to acknowledge that. So it was a good question.

SPEAKER_02 39:43

Good question. Thank you again for tuning in. It's really good. Thank you again once uh more for the pre-orders of and how does that make you feel? It is out very soon. When's this episode out, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 39:53

This episode will be out on February 9th.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Oh, yes, very close, very close, yeah. Uh, and I think up and I have to close it off at some point, but if you do pre-order the book, uh email me at or uh infotheschoolofanxiety.com um with proof of purchase, and I'll answer your question. And I'll just get my voice in your inbox and I'll answer your question. But I have to close it off at some point because I need to free up time. It does take a lot, but and if you've sent one in already, I will get back to you. I will make my way through and I'll get back to you and answer your question. But yeah, thank you so much. Um what a great episode, Drew.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Thank you. Yeah, thanks for hanging out, man. It's always good. If you guys, if you want a link to get Josh's book, go to go to disorder.fm slash forty eight. I'll have a link there. It's a good book, trust me. Anyway, all right, we'll see you guys next week. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks. See you later. We're out.