Anxiety Recovery and "Burnout" (Episode 049)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi Josh and Drew, my name's Louise and I'm from Suffolk, England, and I'm happy for you to use my name. I have a question around burnout. Josh, I remembered you mentioned previously that you were or are apologies, I can't remember the current context, that you were a carer for somebody. I'm in a very similar situation myself, and I'm sure many of your listeners are as well. And we all know it's it's very emotionally draining and it's very stressful, and often our needs come secondary to the other person. My question is, or request for advice, I suppose, how can we make sure we're not entering that territory of burnout without then inwardly focusing constantly too much? I find that at the moment when my stress levels are really high, I'm kind of inwardly focusing more and more, going, Oh, you're not coping, you need to make sure you're coping, looking after yourself. And then I find that I'm doing that too much. But then I find I'm in a situation of where I'm then not maybe putting my own needs first. So, any tips on how to find that balance? And that would be wonderful. All right, thank you very much. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

And welcome to Disordered. This is episode 49. Today we're going to talk about burnout. I am Drew Linsolata, a therapist in training in New York State in the US of A, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, an author, a podcaster, an educator in the anxiety disorder community, and a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for many years in my life, and one of the co-hosts of Disordered.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media, an author of the upcoming book and how does it make you feel? A podcaster, a content creator, um, a therapist, um, a six-foot-two man with poor posture issues, previous sufferer of anxiety. Um I think my blood type's A. You get the point. Who's your favorite band? Oh, there's too many. Don't put me on the spot like that. There's too many. There's probably Fleetwood Mac if you had to.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Well, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. Okay, cool. We'll talk about that one other day. But I was gonna we could have stopped at your blood type, that's fine. Anyway, uh today we're gonna talk about burnout and and Josh's posture issues. But uh, this was a great question to start because I think burnout is a real thing for sure. It contributes in our community in a big way. People who are dealing with anxiety disorders are certainly much less resilient and able to handle a lot of that stress, such as they feel it more. So, what is your experience with burnout?

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Burnout's such a it's such a great question, and thank you for sending it in. Um, burnout is quite a vague subjective term, but in the turn in the context of our community, yeah. So my anxiety disorder started through burnout. Um uh the question sender inner uh was right. I was a carer for a loved one and going to work and juggling 100 things, and yeah, it was uh it was difficult, and then that's how my anxiety disorder started. One day I just suddenly dissociated, never dissociated before, felt weird, this huge sense of doom and dread, and felt like I broke my brain because it was a result of that stress drug overflowing. Now, burnout is can be seen in in two ways. One burnout in the sense that you know we gotta avoid becoming exhausted, exhausted, sometimes uh depressed, uh where we're we're running on nothing or running on fumes, uh, and therefore, you know, we can't even physically and mentally kind of approach things, but it takes a lot to get there. So you've got to worry about like you you gotta be careful with trying to not fear burnout as a sense of avoidance. Like, oh, I must avoid this now, otherwise I might burn out. No, burnout comes from a multitude of stresses through everything. Yeah, uh, what I what happened after I recovered from burnout was actually going to work and continuing to be a carer, but minus the fear of what I was experiencing was enough to give me resources. I stopped fearing being with myself. That was part of what gave me the resources and being kind to myself, having boundaries, making sure that not to feel guilty having time to myself, that's what brought me out of this burnout and not fearing it happening again. What do you think, Drew? I think that's really interesting.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Uh the burnout, I mean, burnout is a real thing, but if we look at burnout in like a non-disordered person or a non-anxious person, it would mean that they start to have a difficult time handling their affairs. You know, work becomes a problem. They maybe they get become detached in their relationships, they just don't have the resources to do life, right? They run they run out of gas, if you will. In our community, the disorder community, then there's the fear of that. And maybe I think what uh this was Louise who sent in the quote, the question sender inner, which is a great way to describe her. Um, I believe that she is even asking about that. Like, I keep going inward and like, am I burning out? How do I feel now? Is this burnout? Am I burnt out? And so I think people who suffer from burnout that aren't in the disorder community, they might know they're doing it, and then it's suddenly like, all right, I've had enough. Whereas in our context, it's checking all the time. Am I burnt out now? Is this gonna burn me out? Am I burning out? How do I feel? Which probably leads to an increased chance that maybe you will experience burnout because of the load of that, the monitoring load, if you will. Does that make sense? Uh, I don't know if I explained that really well.

SPEAKER_03 5:46

It it it does make sense. Also, from my experience, I can only do from my experience, a lot of people in our community don't actually experience burnout. I agree. Mostly fear of burnout. Yeah, I agree. Uh depression. Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

It's the same thing with depression. There more fear of depression than depression in the community.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Yeah, and but but the the paradox of that is that when you fear depression and you monitor all day and all that, you kind of become naturally depressed and you don't even realize it because like you know, you don't feel happy, you don't you feel quite disconnected, you feel like what's the point? But you're not actually experiencing that clinical depression that a lot of us fear. Now, some of them people do, yep, you know, but uh I'm talking about it's about you've got to define what it is for you, your burnout. Um, I find that not you know, it's more of the fear of burnout, the fear of being incapable, the fear of being immobile, um paralyzed by uh exhaustion, etc. Whilst it can happen, it doesn't happen a lot in in my experience. Um, but it's again, it's the fear is more prominent than the actual occurrence of it. You know, what I heard from Louise's question though was yeah, more of the the fear of it. So when I do have time for myself, I've noticed that I'm doing the inwards compulsion, the inwards rumination that we were talking about a couple of episodes ago. Um is is me doing that adding to my burnout? Uh I would say no, because that's the time you practice being with yourself. Now, what I would advise here is that anything but rumination when you've got time to yourself, even if it's doing something physical. Well, I remember like when I had time to myself, I went to go and just do something that was concentrating, using my logical, but I used to go play pool with some of my friends. And yes, that's not sitting at home meditating, but it was nice, it was shifting down the gears, and that's enough. You know, and that's just for me. That's what I did.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

What about you, Drew? Well, that makes sense because I mean going to play socializing, you're playing pool, maybe you're good at it, maybe you're not, who cares? But it's a much, it's a low demand activity. There's no demand on you there. You just whatever, you're just hanging out with your with your mates. I think uh one of the things that I would say, if I look at my experience, I don't think burnout is not something that I've ever really thought about in relation to my anxiety struggles. But if I look back at when I was struggling the most, if I look at that now, I would say, that may have looked like I was burnt out because my ability to just handle life was not good. I just didn't have, you know, I didn't have a lot in the tank there. But that was more because of the anxious avoidance and the fear than it was, oh, I'm burnt out. So I'm wondering if people in our community might start to feel like, you know, well, you we hear it all the time, you know, I had a really busy three days and now I feel like I'm feeling it. My anxiety is elevated and I'm exhausted. Am I burnt out? Can I burn out on my exposures? Well, you're afraid, and those are very difficult tasks to do. So they do put a demand on you, and you are likely tired. But I would probably have confused my state for possibly being burnt out. But I wasn't I wasn't burnt out. I was just had a diminished capacity to perform that was based more on anxious fear and constantly being in that that stress situation, that stress state.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Yeah. That's a nice sentence. Put that in the in the opening. I'll throw that in there. Yeah, I'll have to edit that in somehow. Now I have to remember that I said it. That was a golden one. Yeah, might go back and uh unless it's that.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

And I think it speaks to that fear of burnout because then, like, well, I'm in this state where I feel like I can't do anything. Is that burnout? Am I burnt out? Same thing with depression. It's so the parallels are there. Am I depressed? Am I burnt out?

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Yeah, yeah, and and that does apply to a lot of people in this community. It's another iteration, it's another dress up of the what if I lose control fear. Oh, that's true. That's true. Yeah. What if I burnt out? Because if I'm burnt out, I can't function. And what if I can't function and I'll never get better? And if I'm gonna get never get better, I lose control. And what if I never lose control? And then I can't, and I don't it's a bit like the depression versus fear of depression thing we did many moons ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Um even the sleep, I think it relates to sleep. If I don't sleep enough, then I won't be, I won't be optimized to recover. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

What if there's a thing that consumes me? Yep, and I don't, and I'm always looking out for things that are taking away my control. Yep. And that can be what burnout is. I I can't I re reiterate though, burnout is subjective to a lot of so for some people it's exhaustion, chronic fatigue, um, complete lack of concentration. We should do a bit about what it looks like. Um, it's uh you know, appetite's gone, brain fog, which we did a an episode on. You know, you get loads of brain fog as part of a whole cocktail of burnout, yeah. Uh, loss of libido, your your digestion's completely gone all over the place. Um yeah, I mean, it's yeah, you just feel exhausted a lot of the time. You feel like you're running on 10% as opposed to what you usually run on.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

I think when I approach burnout now, like from the perspective of a recovered person, now I can see burnout. And like some of the signs of burnout for me would be I get a little bit irritable. Sometimes I get a lot irritable. I start to isolate. I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't want to make decisions. Like, please don't ask me what I want for dinner. I'm just done. Like, I don't give a crap what what dinner is, you know. So um that's what it sort of looks like for me. Wow, you sound like a real ass. Oh, yeah, I'm a joy to be around. So I mean, I you know, I try not to let that happen, but those are leave me alone. I'm a badass. America. That's what we do here. Um, yeah, I I think it's it's that situation where for me now as a recovered person, I can clearly see burnout. And it is subjective, you know. So my burnout is going to look different than yours. It isn't a clinical term. Like this person is diagnosed with burnout.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Yeah, that's important. It's not a clinical term, and it's the unknown. And remember, when you're anxious, the anxious brain is drawn to the unknown, you know, just like our ancestors needed it for. You know, we need to kind of speculate about the unknown to keep us safe, to keep us one step ahead of danger. What's this burnout that I keep reading up about? You know, I keep seeing articles on LinkedIn about burnout. I keep seeing things in the in the national press about burnout, how to avoid burnout. You must avoid burnout. But if you actually read each and every single case, their burnout is different. And my advice to people listening to this is don't fear it. Because there will be times in life where it will push you near the edge, but you will still function and live with burnout. That's the I I mean, I I went through a very stressful year, year of year and a half of my life looking after my brother and working in a school for children who are expelled from mainstream education. Great job, and it was a privilege to look after my brother. Extremely exhausting, and yeah, burnout for me was probably just having nothing in the social tank, no enthusiasm to do other things because I was running and using my 10-20%. I was probably burnt out for months, yeah. And then throw the anxiety disorder on top of it, but I didn't become this um completely immobile, non-functional being. Right. I just was not optimal, so I had to have a lot of rest and things like that. I think the question, and forgive me if um, you know, if I've missed the mark here, but I think the question is I'm afraid that my rumination is going to make me worse.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Yeah, how do I stop? Uh you know, she she definitely wanted to know, well, how do I stop going inwards? I feel like I'm going inwards too much to check on my my state.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

And we've banned playing the uh the inwards compulsion music. Yeah, we're not doing it. Yeah, you guys are all done with that. Clearly. I just I want to hit the button so bad. No, don't do it. Don't press the button. Don't go past that. Yeah, but this this podcast has integrity.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, yeah. Oh, does it? That's cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Yeah, good news.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah, um, yeah, and I think it's really hard. I do get it because it's the same thing. How do I stop thinking that I won't get better? How do I stop thinking that I'm not sleeping enough? How do I stop thinking that I might be depressed? You can't stop thinking that. So, Louise, if you're listening or anybody who's concerned about what if I'm getting burnt out, it's okay to have the worry about the burnout. I keep thinking that I might be burnt out or I might accidentally burn out, or and if I I keep thinking that if I burn out that I'm never gonna get better, okay, well, then think that. That's okay. What do you do with that thought is the thing. That's always the thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah, I think it's important to look at as well. Like I often use the stress jug analogy. We've used it a few times where and this is a really, really important kind of definition of the stress drug, and people misinterpret it. I use the stress drug analogy to explain why we get panic attacks or disordered anxiety, where it comes from. People ask me where it comes from, and uh, and an uh an amalgamation, an accumulation of stresses throughout life, normal, everyday conventional stresses, things like being a carer, trauma, grief, money worries, job, physical health, mental health, breakups, um, your sports team losing, whatever, you forgot to put the bins out. It all builds up and builds up and builds up and overflows. When it overflows, that's a metaphor for you. The amygdala going, I don't understand why you're so stressed, have a load of adrenaline and cortisol, and that ain't gonna be I think I'm being helpful, but it's not, and that's when we experience the DPDR and all these things, and all these symptoms that we begin to fear. Yep. And then meanwhile, all those other stresses do get solved. So you do put the bins out, you do these things, you've you've done the emails at work, but your jug's still full. Yeah, because the fear of the symptoms and the fear of fear itself keeps filling up the jug. So, what I want you to do is realize that I use the drug analogy because just to explain why, but don't fear the drug overflowing because the way out and to empty the jug is to stop fearing what happens when it overflows. It's just an explanation to tell you why it's happening, because for me that helped. I just thought I was broken, and actually, no, it wasn't. Some people with burnout can conflate the drug analogy or or a similar kind of uh analogy like that to burnout. Oh, I mustn't let my jug fill up. Well, try your best not to let it fill up, but the goal here is to realize you will cope even if it does. And I think that applies to burnout too.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

I agree. That's such a big deal when you say like the issue is I love the idea that the fear means that you the jug, the fear will occupy the empty part of the jug. It's like a I used to make jokes about, you know, the big giant American gas guzzling cars that we used to make and still do to turn it, like that gas tank can never actually be full. Because the minute you turn it on, it's already an eighth down. And it's the there you go. Let's have it.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

Sorry, that's two and an episode. It's okay. I can't not play the eagle.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

It was appropriate there. I used to make a joke all the time. Like that car is so big that the gas tank can never actually be full. The minute you turn it on, it's immediately an eighth down. And but it's the same way. So the fear of burnout and uh and but following the fear, you can't just not be afraid of it, right? So you you we don't just get to decide, well, let me just stop being afraid of that. You can't. And so the fear will still kick in and you'll be compelled or compulsed, if you will, to do that inward compulsion and check and see am I a burn, am I? But so it comes down to like the even if means I have to roll the dice a little bit. We go back to our penta million gone. Uh you know, I got to roll that dice a little bit. So what can I do? Well, I can I can take some practical steps to try and make sure I get some rest time and re-engage with my hobbies and be social. But if I do wind up with my jug overflowing in a bit of a burnout state, well, then I'll have I'll react to that and I'll rest and I'll get through that. That's the only thing you do. The fear is really there to try and prevent the burnout that you fear so much, or the depression, or whatever it is. But maybe you can't prevent it. You're almost the thing you're trying to prevent, you're more likely to experience if you try so hard to prevent it. So this is a tough one, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

It is a tough one. Um knowing that you and this is a mantra I apply to anything like you will cope even if the bad thing happens. Yeah, the the mind and body has such an amazing ability to habituate. Uh, I've got permanent tinnitus and OCD. So imagine where my brain went when I developed tinnitus. Um, it fixated on the tennis, sorry, tinnitus, tinnitus, that side of the Atlantic. Uh, and I had tinnitus, tinnitus, uh, and still do, but it was screaming. And in my head, I was like, this will never turn off. I'll be like this forever. Oh my god. And then I went and did some CBT for tinnitus, and actually I realized it's not the sound. Yeah, the sound's annoying, but I'm afraid of the what if this makes me lose control and I can't cope. Yeah, and then I looked at the statistics. 98% of people 98% of people completely habituate to even high levels of tinnitus with the multiple sounds going on. Yeah, uh, and I was like, okay. Obviously, my anxiety was like, Yeah, you're the two percent. I was like, No, I'm not. I can do this, I'm not silly, right? And yeah, I have tinnitus now. Here's the thing though, I've turned it into a resource. So when my tinnitus tinnitus is loud, that's a little alarm bell for me to just say, Oh, I'm really stressed. Yeah, yeah, oh, I I should take it easy now and put myself up. So I've used it as a concept, like, all right, anxiety is gonna make me think that I'm gonna lose control here. But now I use it as my own alarm, my own jug meter. Yeah, like, oh, oh god, yeah, I can really hear this loud in bed. Yeah, because I've been loud, because I've been stressed and busy recently.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah, it's time to take a little break. I like that because it becomes a productive use of it. It's funny because people who are listening now, you know, we talk about the threat response, the threat detection system in an anxious person, forget looking for external threats like lions or or muggers. The internal threat assessment is way out of kilter. That's the I won't be able to cope. So I think the assessment of of how much of a threat burnout, whatever that is, would be is way askew. Like if I get burnout, I will be reduced to a shell of myself and I will not But no, not really. That's just you're afraid that that's because you're so sensitive to how you feel, and you have no confidence in your own body and your own mind, you can't trust it anymore, you think you've been abandoned by your own body and mind. So you think anything people get freaked out because, oh, I have the flu and I I won't be able to cope with the flu or a sinus infection or anything that burnout seems like this giant monster that's just waiting around the corner to just take you down all the way and you'll never get back up. But I think it's also important to recognize I I love how you mentioned before, and we get back to those like pop culture references to burnout. There's so many different types of burnout. Am I burnt out at work professionally? Am I burnt out creatively? How many times have we seen like you know, musicians? That's it. I'm not touring for two years, I'm not making any albums for two years, I'm burnt out creatively, right? But then that person goes off on one.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

They jogging around Central Park, exactly, out with friends, flying to heat, whatever. Yeah. So yeah, their burnout is is different. It's so important to realize that you're you're so right.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

It's contextual. Some people get like relationship burnout. I just need to be single for a while. Okay, that's a bit of a form of burnout, too. But then the wellness sphere takes burnout as like a universal concept and Maybe twists it a little bit, especially for someone with an anxious mind who has a little bit of a hard time interpreting those uh those messages objectively.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Yeah, because when they hear burnout, they hear lose control.

SPEAKER_02 22:12

Lose control or com being completely debilitated, which isn't necessarily the case. Yeah.

unknown 22:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

That said, I think we should do a little LinkedIn article curation here for actual things and tips to help people to kind of not burn out. You know, we know we're an anxiety podcast and we're here to we're here to help. Yep. But I think the first place I would start as well, because you know we're not all like, yeah, you're you're stoic, you can deal with everything or whatever. But let's just like my my first tip, um, yeah, let's have a tip off. Okay. My first tip for burnout is to be give yourself permission. One of the most per strongest, most powerful words, uh for me personally, anyways, permission to stop, go easy and have time for yourself, whether it's five minutes or five weeks.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

That's a good tip. I would say I don't have a tip. I'm gonna take that tip. I need to take that tip. Yeah, you need to I said I gotta record this episode and then listen to it. But uh I think uh one of the things uh that I have used as a sort of a tip to keep me out of burnout zone or or make sure I don't get so stressed that I become ineffective is uh I try to stay connected to the things that are important to me. So I do a little like values journaling every every month. I prompt myself to connect to a few of my values. I'm like, oh how how am I uh servicing these core values? Because it makes me realize that like, well, recording 16 podcast episodes in two weeks has nothing to do with what's valuable to me. I like to do it, but uh staying connected to the things that I value is a is a good anti-burnout tool for me, believe it or not. Because it it helps me make good decisions that are good for me and feed my like soul. Can't believe I said feed my soul in this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Wow, we've said the word journey a few times. Wow, every once in a while it's gonna happen, guys. Okay, that's a very good, very good answer. Really good tip. Oh okay, another tip for burnout. Um sometimes I do it in here, is that I draw a giant receptacle, 2D, a big jug, flask, pan, whatever you want to use, and I write down all my stresses in the jug, and I circle the ones that I can take out the most eas the easiest. So things like um you know what I should ring m my sister, or you know, I should iron my clothes, or you know, I should respond to that really boring email, or maybe I should make up with that friend who I've fallen out with, because that will start easing stresses. You carry all that stuff and resentment around with you, uh, and look at what can be taken out there. Maybe you know what, I've been holding on to grief for a long time, maybe I should talk to someone about it. You know, because trust me, holding on to stuff in the long run, yeah as opposed to feeling you know intense emotions in the short run, you know, it's way worse. And that will contribute to burnout more than you know, if you're walking around lumbered with things that you haven't spoken about, you know, that's gonna that's gonna weigh you down and and contribute to this subjective and contextual version of burnout that we're discussing.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Because if you can carry a hundred pounds and you're already automatically always have 40 pounds in your arms, then you can only carry 60 pounds because you're carrying all the other stuff beforehand. That's really good. Um, I like that too because that is like turning a bit of rumination into a plan. Like I can just just let it swirl around in my head endlessly with no purpose or no resolution, or I can actually see if I can put it on paper and prioritize and uh, you know what, I'm gonna call my friend today. Like I love that. Um one of my anti-burnout tips or like just some good, you know, self-care, if you want to call it tips, is uh I have a I have a fun. This is gonna sound ridiculous, but it literally is a fun routine. Like in my to-do list every day, I have a couple of things. Read, listen, chill. They don't they're not demands. It's not like I have to check, okay, let me let me chill. Okay, check off the chill box. It's not that. They're just always reminders and at the top of the the to list every day automatically.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

It's like a more tasteful version of live, laugh, love.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

A little bit, yeah. So every day it's like, oh, I'm gonna listen to a new record today that I've never heard. And I'm gonna take make sure I take 30 minutes at the end of the day to do that. I'm gonna read a few pages of something I never read before. They're just ways to disconnect from the things that would otherwise fuel stress and load. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

My my final tip would be do something that you know enjoy, that you enjoy, that Craig the critic hates you doing. Yeah. It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

He doesn't want you going there. No. So do it anyway. You know what? And some of that is taking a risk. We always talk about rolling the dice. Take a risk of being selfish today. Go ahead. Be selfish, be self-centered, do something you enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Oh, yeah. I like that. Oh, we're turning into a wellness podcast. Oh, I love it. Always wanted it. Um, talking of wellness, um we had a we had an audio did it anyway. Yeah, let's play that because it's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And then we got a couple of questions. All right, we'll take some questions. Let's let's play our audio did it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Hi, Drew and Josh. Um, I had a major win that I wanted to share. You did it anyway. Um, about two years ago, I had really started to be in the depths of my panic disorder and agoraphobia. And at that time, I had one of the worst panic attacks and experience I ever had at an auditorium watching my son perform in a talent show. That was a horrible experience two years ago, and I went back to the same place just last night and was able to sit through a two-hour performance and really had very minimal symptoms, and really just doing it anyway every day has really paid off very slowly but surely, and it feels really good. So thank you for what you do. Um really like you guys gave me the like final push. Getting a little teary-eyed. It's it's just has really helped me, so thank you.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

It's the wrong sound effect. This one, that's amazing. Yeah, let's go over the cricket.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Well done. You're making me tear up there. I know, that was really great. Well done to your son and the talent show. Um, I initially heard that as he was doing a whole two-hour performance. I was like, is your son a techno DJ? That's amazing. My son is dead mouse. Well done. That's that's incredible. Do you know what I love about that? You went back, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

Oh back to the scene of the crime is hard in this community, right? I went back there.

SPEAKER_03 29:13

So good. You went back and you nailed it. So good. And well done to your son as well for being in the talent show and having a supportive mother who's there to cheer him on. Yeah. Um, got some questions. Yeah, we've got some questions. Um I got one.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah, I'll read you. Yeah, I got one. Um, I have a question from Nick who says, Hi guys, you can use my name. I was listening to the inward compulsion episode. I want to hit the button. And I can relate easily. My question is on being a police officer. I find in my job I have to go back to the ancestral instinct of what's around the corner, etc., to try and be safe. Makes sense. How do I eliminate that in my civilian life where I'm not always on and worrying about the evil in the world? Thank you, and you guys have helped me greatly. Well, you're welcome, Nick. Thanks for the questions. Good question. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Um, that's a really good question. Um, the very first paragraph, and and this is not just a shameless plug, but the very first paragraph of my book, and how does it make you feel starts with when people are invested in particularly like emotional jobs, it's very hard to turn off. You know, even and I just explained how therapists tried to do it, and he's like, you can't fully turn it off. So, yeah, that's part of your job, and it's probably what makes you good at your job. Um, I would my advice would be to be like, okay, step one is notice it, brilliant. So you've noticed it, so you're not this person who's completely unaware of it, and then and then step two, just practice gently switching between these modes. Are you ever gonna turn it off? No, so don't try to make that the success criteria, but just gently and compassionately say, right, you know, I'm a police officer, you know, I do this many hours a week. Uh, it's not I'm not surprised that it happens now when I'm trying to live my own life, but I'm gonna just gently practice switching between the two. Yeah, and this applies to all kind of particularly frontline services, paramedics, doctors, nurses, stuff like that. It's just about being kind to yourself and gently, gently practicing with that attention and just being like, oh, notice that I'm in meerkat mode here, not at work now, don't need to be.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah, I would not try to I I love your advice. Don't try to turn it off because I think you can. And then you also have to ask yourself, how much impact is this having on my life? Right? We always care, like we would not want to treat somebody, you know, for some sort of problem if the problem actually isn't causing any significant level of impact or restriction or distress for them. So you have to look at that. If this is causing you a huge amount of distress, it's causing you problems, and your life has become very restricted or governed by this, yeah, then you might want to focus more on the problem and talk about do some of the stuff that Josh was talking about. But if it's just a minor annoyance, you might not even really have to turn it off that much. Uh, the only thing I would add to that would be like maybe a little routine that says, okay, now I'm off. When mere cat mode gets activated, which it's gone, I can't stop it. I follow new rules now because I'm not I'm off duty and now I just let I just let that fear be there and I go about my business as best I can. Good question, though.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

It's a good question. Thank you. And thanks for tuning in. Um there's uh I've got a question here, Drew. Um, and if we've got time, I've got a there's a written did it anyway. Okay. Here's a question. Um, hello, disordered. I have a question. What about positive ruminations? Sometimes when I'm out on a walk, my mind will roam freely. It sometimes reminds me of pleasant times, creative ideas, and has even been known to make me laugh. With a big emphasis on present mind focus within this community, would it be wise to keep bringing my attention back to the present, even when I'm actually enjoying where my mind is taking me? Hope that makes sense. Feel free to use my name. Thanks, Dan. What a question. That's a great answer. It's gonna be it's gonna be a short answer. Yeah. That's that's you win. You win exactly. Just keep doing it.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Keep doing what you're doing, man. Yeah, that's exactly what like Yes. When we say things like, or when I remember when Martin Steve was on my podcast a long time ago on The Anxious Truth, and he said, you know, human brains are capable of producing beautiful things, but also crap. That's the beautiful things. Take the take the part. You got it, you got the first part.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

Stop it, Dan. Just do it. You win. You win. That's it. If you're walking around smiling, reminiscing, reflecting, creatively, using that part of your brain that gets neglected so much and and ignored because the anxious part of it takes over. No, you win, you've won. That's it. You've done it, you're out there. Brilliant. I was I was sat in a cafe the other day and I was imagining. Do you remember we spoke about the taxi company? Yes, what would I name like months ago? I was thinking of something like just something stupid like that, and I was really enjoying it. That's it. I was fantasizing that owning an Otter Sanctuary, and what I would call it, would it be not-for-profit, whatever? I'm just sat and it was just absolute nonsense. And I was smiling and laughing and imagining it. I win. I'm not thinking about how I feel. I'm not compulsing, I'm not ruminating, I'm not applying perfectionistic tendencies to recovery. I win. Dan, you win. Yeah, no, you don't need to do that.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Um, I would say even I'll add this to step on you for a second. Even if you went out with the intention of doing like a present mindfulness walk, and you wind up doing that, fantasizing and reminiscing and enjoying old song lyrics in your head, still winning.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

Yeah, that's such a good point. I've got mine, I've gone to mindfulness meditation classes, and then 10 minutes in, I'm just laughing at a joke my friend told me like the other day. I'm still winning. Yeah, I'm probably not training my focus as bad, but who cares?

SPEAKER_02 34:51

If you're smiling, you're winning.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, yeah. I was hoping to win a hundred dollars, and damn it, I win a thousand. Like no one would say that. So, yeah. So yeah, good job, Dan. Thanks for the question.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

That's really good. That's almost like a did it anyway. It's like, no, no, no, Dan, leave it alone. Yeah, uh, and yeah, I will I will finish on this did it anyway. Yeah. Um, hashtag did it anyway. Hey Josh and Drew, I know you hear this a lot, but I've been in therapy for a long time, and this podcast, your books, and a few other podcasts have helped me so much. This week I have driven in three different places that have scared me so badly as both passenger and driver. I heard the doubt, I remembered what you guys said about my brain just doing what it's supposed to do by filling me with doubt out of protection. I kept repeating to myself, doubt is not danger, and just went for it. I'm also nine months pregnant, and the thought of doing this for my for my healing and for my daughter to have the strong mother that I really am means everything. Next step is the highway, a couple little bridges that have me spooked and just one thing at a time, all the time. Thank you for helping me, us all of us. Thank you very much. And this was sent in a few months ago. So we want to hear the update there. Did you get on the highway? Is the kid all right? How's motherhood? Feel free to send us a message on disordered.fm. We'd love to hear from you, or even a voicemail.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, absolutely. We we read them all, we try to at least and listen to them all. We can't always get them on the air, but we try to get to all of them. So well done. That gets that gets a little applause for sure. That's a value-driven did it anyway. I want to be better and I want to be a good mom. So I took a risk, did some scary stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Excellent. Keep them, keep them coming in, guys. Disordered.fm. Yep. If you don't follow us on social media, I am at anxietyjosh, and Drew is at the.anxious.truth. Um, yeah, feel free to uh sign up to the disordered mailing list. Thank you to all those that have pre-ordered my latest book, which is out incredibly soon. Really excited for it. And also you've got the resources, Drew's books, my self-help books. Uh, or just don't even think about anxiety for a bit and go off and do what Dan's doing, because that's he's the hero of the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 37:10

I like that plan. Turn this off and go do something that is important to you that you like. Take a risk.