Agoraphobia & Fear of Open Spaces (Episode 134)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I often say it's just the fear of losing control outside of a designated safe zone. You know you're agoraphobic when you plan your life around being in safe zones or at least near a safe zone.

SPEAKER_05 0:14

Safe people, I think, show up in agoraphobia more than in any other because the safe person often influences what a safe zone is. I can go to this thing, but only if these three or four people will go with me.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Don't fall for the illusion and the trap that, oh my god, you know, I gotta go to the other side of the country. I'm gonna be a thousand times more anxious. No, it doesn't work like that. It's the same panic as if you're going to somewhere that scares you near.

SPEAKER_05 0:42

So usually the progression is panic attack, panic attacks, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid agoraphobia.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 134 entitled Agrophobia and the Fear of Open Spaces. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm an author, a podcast host, a social media content creator, and a therapist that's really passionate about providing uh evidence-based education to our wonderful listeners.

SPEAKER_05 1:23

And I'm joined by uh I'm Drew Lintilata, the other half of Disordered. I'm also a former sufferer of these things that we talk about here in this podcast, but better now, a therapist that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, though. Um also a writer, social media dude, the whole thing. We we're look the same, it's the same situation. So uh yeah, and the guy the other half of this uh microphone duo. So happy to be here. We're gonna talk agrophobia today, agoraphobia today.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yeah, this is in response to a question from Anton from Croatia. He says, Hey Drew and Josh, and in brackets, alphabetically, this is the correct order to name you.

SPEAKER_05 1:59

That is very diplomatic. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Greetings from Croatia. You can use my name if you like. Thanks, Anton. One thing that is overlooked and not mentioned in over 130 episodes is fear of open areas and vastness, such as open spaces in the city, or even worse, the fields and wide open areas, which is quite common in agrophobic community. Bonus points if you talk about cosmic fear that comes often with with this phobia, linked closely with agrophobia. And shout out to anyone going through this. I wish you could make an episode about it. Thanks for your contribution to the community, and I'm the one that always mentions you on Reddit and to my friends. Cheers, Lat.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

Oh, thank you, Anton, for the mentions on Reddit. Appreciate that. Um, I well, let's go for the bonus points. Let's take Anton's bonus points too. Cosby.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yeah, we can do that. Uh, yeah. So we'll talk about agrophobia and then we'll talk about open spaces and stuff. I like what he said, and even worse, big open fields is like, oh, not the open fields. You know, that's even worse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Where do we start then? Agrophobia, what is it?

SPEAKER_05 3:08

Well, uh, agrophobia, it's interesting because the we all know this, but we'll go through it anyway. The word is that fear implies fear of the open space, right? It's fear of the marketplace from back in Greece, where they named the word or where the origin comes from. So there's built into the word is actually that like fear of the open. Now, traditionally people will uh oh, he an agoraphobic, oh, that's a person who doesn't leave their house. Kinda. Uh really agoraphobia is what we call it when somebody avoids all kinds of context, usually out of their safe space, because they're afraid of how they're going to feel in that. So it's really just the condition that you get when you stop doing many, many things or or heavily avoid because you're afraid that it might trigger anxiety, which is different than I'm afraid of the supermarket because I was assaulted in a supermarket and I don't want to go back to one. This is I'm afraid to go to certain places or be in certain contexts because I might get anxious or panic in those contexts. That's what really it is.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah. I often say it's just the fear of losing control outside of a designated safe zone. Yeah. Um, you know you're agrophobic when you plan your life around being in safe zones or at least near a safe zone, you know. So, oh god, yeah. I mean, I I can venture out my safe zone, but I can get back within five minutes. Or there's my escape pod back to the safe zone, i.e., a car, you know, or you know, you're agrophobic when you open up Google Maps, and you know, there's a big radius circle around where you can go, where you can't go. For some people, it's your house, for some people, it's your house to work, for some people, it's your local town, your your village, uh, it could be your entire state. But there's always a line. I often say to actually I stole this off a client many years ago, uh, and he said, it feels like there's a bungee cord attached to my front door attached to my back. And yeah, I can walk around, it's a long bungee cord, but then as soon as it I get to a certain distance, it feels very hard, and I can feel it pulling me back in. And yeah, I quite like that analogy. Um, yeah, agrophobic, the fear of losing control or panicking outside of a designated safe zone. Cool. Did you ever have that, Drew?

SPEAKER_05 5:26

Oh, geez, that was my jam a hundred percent. If of all the things that I experienced, that was the one that was most prevalent over the years that would keep coming back again and again and again. Um I'll just want to add two tiny little things to our definition here. I have been I've I've seen and heard from and interacted with agoraphobics who would not look at all agoraphobic because there are times when people's safe zone becomes their vehicle. That does happen. So I've had people drive anywhere, but they can't get out of the car, they can't go further than the car. They as long as they can see the car and get back to it, they're good. So I have agoraphobics who will drive hundreds of miles, it doesn't matter, but they can't get more than 300 yards from the car or or they panic.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Uh yeah, because the safe zone has been the car has become an appendage of the safe zone. That's exactly right. So so you attach the bungee cord to the front of your car now, and then oh it can go a bit, but uh, but yeah, as soon as you take the car away, so it's another business venture that Drew and I are doing, um, disordered vehicle impounds. So if we've catch you doing an exposure and you're giving the credit to your car, you see a big yellow impound truck with me and Drew smoking in the front. We'll clamp it and we'll take it away. Why? Because we know that after that panic, you would get the credit.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

Yeah, it will be expensive to get your heart car back, so don't mess that up. We we ain't gonna go light on you, by the way. Uh the other thing that often comes in with agoraphobia is we talk about safe people all the time. I safe people, I think, show up in agoraphobia more than in any other because the safe person often uh influences what a safe zone is. I can go to this thing, but only if these three or four piece people will go with me. Somebody goes with me. I still don't like it, but I'll do it with them. If I have to do it alone, not doing it. So interestingly, people that you think can protect you from the panic or save you or calm you down will will modify your your definition of acceptable places in agoraphobia, too. That happens.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

Yeah, agrophobia and monophobia go hand in hand. They're like cheese and tomato, you know, it's a bit like like panic disorder and agrophobia, even in the medical journals say, you know, panic disorder and agrophobia. Uh, interestingly, you can get panic disorder without agrophobia, but I have a theory that agrophobia develops because when we have our first panic attack, we go home, and that's where the panic attack ends. So the brain wires to think, well, panic attacks can only end here. And we get into the habit of going out, having panic attacks, and then we go home, and then that's where they eventually end. Because all panic ends, the threat response always ends, it's physiologically impossible for it to carry on. But by coincidence, we've wired our brain to think, oh crap, no, this is only where I can cope. Now, some people are like, Yeah, but I have panic attacks at home too, yeah. But you don't leave, do you? So the panic ends in the house, and that's where it stays. So I say, if you're gonna have a panic attack, you might as well just go for a walk and let it end somewhere else. Because that's when our friend, the amygdala, will rewire and it'll go, Oh, okay, well, maybe we can just panic with somewhere else. Yeah, and it would still be okay. Amygdala.

SPEAKER_05 8:48

I don't hit the buttons enough, so I forgot what they are.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Um hit the buttons more, hit the button, hit the button more. Amygdala.

SPEAKER_05 8:55

The thing that's so interesting about that is the panic disorder and agoraphobia thing and how they relate. Like in the old days, you diagnosed panic disorder with agoraphobia or without. Like that's how agoraphobia made its way into the diagnosis. Now we diagnose panic disorder and agoraphobia or not, just panic disorder. And in very rare cases, people develop agoraphobia without the panic attacks. That does happen, but it's really rare. So, usually the progression is panic attack, panic attacks, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid agoraphobia. Like, you know, that's panic. One panic attack doesn't make somebody agoraphobic, but one panic attack can lead you to panic disorder, which then will lead you to avoid like crazy, and then suddenly you have agoraphobia. You don't just have panic disorder.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

Yeah, yeah. And if you if you've been listening to this podcast and you're 134 episodes in, you'll know the principles behind agoraphobia, which is you practice being anxious, willfully tolerating, surrendering, floating, whatever. You go and you're practicing being anxious because you're teaching the brain that this is not a threat, and that requires you to stand there with your heart pounding, dissociating, all these thoughts of being carted off to the asylum, blah, blah, blah. But you have to get the credit. That's a very important episode. Getting the credit, let's go back way back in the time machine to um to kind of uh refresh yourself on that. But your brain needs you need to get the credit for anxiety passing, not your safe person, like Drew was saying, not that you were 10 yards from your car, and you practice a little bit at a time, not the magic objects that you carry. Uh, I used to do this a lot. I just started walking to the end of my garden. I was that bad. Yeah, you know. Um, but then I realized hold on, I could stay at the end of my garden and start the anxiety starts to come down. Oh, okay, let's see how far I can push this until eventually you're like, yeah. Although I know some people that keep pushing it, keep pushing it, keep pushing it, they'll get to 50 miles away from their house, and they're like, No.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

This is it. This is what I take one more step, it'll be the farthest away from home I've ever been.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Keep let this there'll be a point where the the penny drops and goes, it's not location, is it? It's just habit and a belief.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Yeah, that for when I was working on that, I I think the one of the big shifts that happened as I kept pushing that was wait a minute, whether I panic, you know, a a half a mile from my house or 10 yards from my house or 10 miles or 50 miles, it doesn't matter. Like it actually doesn't matter. So people will often think, well, to get better then I have to, I just have to keep practicing. I have to do exposures going further and further. No, at some point that experience does generalize. If you let it, by the way, if you let it, it will generalize to like, oh, it I guess it doesn't matter where I get anxious, it's fine. So then, and then yeah, that's what you got to get to, which unfortunately means this is the toughest one. Like, well, that means do I have to panic to recover from agoraphobia? Well, you have to be totally willing to. You might not, but you have to be totally willing to. What about the open spaces thing? Did you was that a thing for you?

SPEAKER_03 12:07

It was, and we'll move on to that and sure. I just wanted one more thing about that. Yeah, that a lot of agrop a lot of uh agoraphobics, a lot of uh agoraphobics, agrophobics, whatever. Um, they have this false maths equation in their head where they think distance equals distance from safe space equals more anxiety. Yeah, so if I'm a thousand yards from a house, I got a thousand times the anxiety. No, you don't. You just hit the space and you have adrenaline and cortisol doesn't matter. I could airlift you from your home and drop you in the middle of France. Maybe our French listeners are like, that's great, I live there. Drop me off back at home. It's brilliant. But in general, it doesn't matter. You don't fall for the illusion and the trap that, oh my god, you know, I gotta go to the other side of the country. Well, that means I'm gonna be a thousand times more anxious. No, it doesn't work like that. It's the same panic as if you're going to somewhere that scares you near where you live.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

In the end, that distance thing, I'm glad you brought that up because there's now we're gonna get all physics like it's not physics, I promise. It is not a distance function in agoraphobia, it's a time function. Now, distance often equals time, but the problem is further 100%. I will take this because one of the interesting things when you work with with agrophobics, see how diplomatic we are. You say it my way, say it your way. Um, when we work with the with people with agrophobia or agoraphobia, uh, if you trap them even close to the safe zone, but don't let them get back to the safe zone, we have a problem because it's short distance just means I can get back to calm quicker. And and the mechanism is I got to get away and out of this feeling as quickly as I possibly can. So further away would mean it takes me much longer to get back. But what you would discover is that if you are 100 miles away and yeah, it might take you an hour or two hours to get back, people think that that fake math that you're talking about says, oh, then that would be an hour and a half of abject, pure level 12 terror, but it wouldn't. On the way back, you would start to calm down, but then you would think, oh, that's because I'm heading home. No, no, that's not it. Like, see, I I have to get back home to calm down. That's not it.

SPEAKER_03 14:25

So that's that's why I think um agrophobia and claustrophobia are the same thing. It's the inability to escape to a in air quotes perceived safe zone. Yeah, you know, agrophobia and claustrophobia is pretty much the same fear, you know, because it's interesting that you know, if I trap you from near your safe zone, right? Well, then that would be claustrophobia. I feel trapped and I can't get to my safe zone, or I'm too far away from my safe zone. It doesn't matter, you both fear the panic. Yeah, and that's what it is.

SPEAKER_05 14:58

Yeah, it's why agoraphobics uh have a hard time with the movies of cinema, you guys call it. Like, you know, oh going to a concert, going to a sporting event, I'm gonna be stuck in the middle of the row. Yeah, people with panic disorder have that issue too. Almost every agoraphobic has that issue for sure.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Like, I that I can't get out of this, I'm gonna be trapped, and uh, I won't be able to that's why you get the micro avoidances like I'll book a seat on the end, right? Research the fire exits. If I'm going to the restaurant, I'll make sure I'm near the bathroom or near the entrance so I can run out just in case. Yeah, by all means, if you're managing to go to the movie theater and do that, that's cool. But encourage yourself to be like, well, maybe I can get more of the credit here if I put myself right in the corner, right in the middle, in front of two massive people and they're eating popcorn, I can't escape. Yeah, do that. That sounds right up my street. Um, should we bookend this with a did it anyway and talk about open spaces?

SPEAKER_05 15:58

Yeah, let's do it. How about we do an audio did it anyway? Because I happen to have one ready right here.

SPEAKER_08 16:05

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Carrie, I'm from Florida, and I just wanted to share a Did It Anyway I had this weekend. Um, so I went to Warp Tour, which is a music festival, like punk rock music, and in Orlando. So I live about an hour from there. But anyway, um, I was already feeling sensitized again, starting at the beginning of the month because my and I was really nervous leading up to Warp Tour because I think they estimated like 80,000 people per day, and I definitely get overstimulated in crowds and with loud music, and it was hot, and I definitely didn't want to go, but I wanted to go, of course, at the same time because I, you know, some of my all-time favorite bands were playing, so I made my go. I definitely struggled. Um, I never went into a full-blown panic attack though, and I tried to enjoy myself as much as I can, could. And then the second day, because it was a two-day thing, I really didn't want to go the second day, but again, I pushed myself, went and saw my favorite band, had moved on, and usually did a little bit better the second day because I think I knew what to expect, and I'm very tired today. I still feel sensitized, I'm still having a lot of physical symptoms from a few weeks of stress and this festival and everything. But overall, I am super grateful. Um, Craig the Critic tried to get me to be hard on myself, but I wouldn't let him win. So I'm just super happy that I went and had a really good time.

SPEAKER_05 17:59

Carrie, did a number on that?

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Sorry for the little coaches, but yeah, I was I was into the uh did you go to like a dubstep festival?

SPEAKER_04 18:09

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Uh no, oh, that was amazing, Carrie. Well done. Uh and enjoying the punk rock festival too. Oh, you like punk rock, do you? Name three songs.

SPEAKER_05 18:19

Oh, a woman at a punk festival probably gets grilled like that all the time. Oh, yeah? Oh no. What's the lead singer's dog's name? No, his second dog.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

What was the B-side album that they released in 1960?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Shut up. Shut the hell up. Yeah, solid point. Well done, Carrie. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_05 18:39

No, Craig the Critic. No, definitely. It was worth the little recording glitches that Carrie had for the end there. Craig the Critic tried to tell me, no, no, no, no, no, no. And she was like, No, no, no. I'm taking the credit too bad. Good for you.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:51

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 18:52

Also, it also sounded like I was being beamed abroadcast whilst I'm on the space station, you know, and just like, you know, I was like, oh, okay, cool. Uh no, super.

SPEAKER_05 19:01

Yeah, yeah. My co-host Major Tom up in Orbit. Uh, really good. All right, what were we talking about again? Open areas, open spaces, wide open spaces.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Yeah, so we're gonna uh answer Anton's um question about open, you know, open spaces, you know, Anton's field. So, you know, we're we're all gonna uh analyze Anton's field. Uh why why are big wide open spaces and worries about the cosmos and things? Very common, actually. I hear that quite a lot in my practice. Um, what's your take on it, Drew?

SPEAKER_05 19:34

I mean, uh I don't think it has any special uh first of all, we're I'm not trying to minimize anybody's experience. That discomfort is any uh it was real as anybody's discomfort, right? It just happens to be triggered for some reason by that the perception that this is there's nothing holding me in. And it often, and I used to think this was such an anomaly, it isn't. It often goes hand in hand with people who worry when there's no cloud cover. If the sky is wide and blue, or it's night and they could just see the stars, that's a big problem. There's this feeling of being not grounded, or it's just so vast, and I'm so small, and there's no protection or safety to run to, there's a million different variations on the theme, but it just makes it triggers that discomfort, and then I can't handle that discomfort.

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Um also it also makes sense if you're agrophobic or you live in the city and things like that, you're not used to your eyes literally taking in wide panoramic shots and depth perception. So as soon as you walk out and go see a field, your brain's like, Whoa, we don't see this often. Bam! And you know, let's let's take in a lot of depth perception, which is going to make you feel uncomfortable, which might trigger sensations of sensitization and panic. Yeah, um, but also big open spaces could apply to agrophobics with well, I can't designate a safe space if there's just a giant field, you know. What if I get lost here? What is this? Um, and then also I found it for a lot of clients, it does open thoughts like vastness, it puts things into perspective sometimes. People with agrophobia, their worlds are very small, you know, it's confined to a few rooms in the house or a village or whatnot. And suddenly big panoramic vistas, like fields, like the countryside, like the mountains, whatever, is almost like a conceptualization and a realization of oh, actually, I do live in a very small world, and this is a reminder of how big the world is, uh, and a reminder of how I've almost artificially constructed my world because of fear. Um, there's a lot of reasons why you would find open spaces scary, but they're not special, and that's what we say here that it's just the environment and you're perceiving it a certain way. It's not uh special. So, yeah, take a few steps forward, like Sam Sam Wise Ganji, and just be like, all right, one more step, see what we do. And you practice the exposure. You can lie in the middle of field of the field and chill out. I've had some of the best afternoons. Just like down in a field, look at the sky. It's great.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Interesting because those some of those really big places or big sky, like a beautiful sky, that would maybe create wow, you know, wow, there's a hit. There's a whether it's awe, whether it's striking, whatever it is. And that is a change, that it's a change in perspective perspective or perception. Now, if you're not an anxious person, you see that as awe or excitement or wonder or appreciation. An anxious person that sees a sudden change in their perspective just sees a change, and we ain't okay with changes. We we need consistency. I want predictability. So uh that could be part of the problem too. But I think the big thing with Josh is not special. When people say, Hey, can you talk about the fear of open spaces? Like Anton, who sent in the question, which is a great question. First of all, it's just nice to know that you're not, you know, this isn't a fear that's crazy that nobody has. But often it's like, well, what about but but what do I do with that fear? The same. So people are often looking for some logical or reasoned explanation for how you talk about that. Tell yourself this, remember this, think about it like that. No, because in the end, you're only avoiding that because of how it makes you feel inside. The big sky is not the problem, it's the feeling you get inside when you look at the big sky. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Yeah, that's just your trigger. And we teach the brain that we no longer want that to be a trigger, you know? Uh, and also bear in mind, people with anxiety disorders are hyper-vigilant. And anxiety and the threat response hates any threat to hypervigilance. So its whole job is to keep you hyper-vigilant like a mere cat. Sorry, it's easy to be hyper-vigilant in a small room or in a predictable space or on your route to work because it's familiar. You step out into an open field, bam, it's really hard to be hyper-vigilant when there's so much scope for analysis. And for a lot of people find this overwhelming. So that will trigger a feeling you don't like, it's burst your illusion of control, and you might get an adrenaline rush. Oh god, that sounded good, didn't it? I like that.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Yeah, it's interesting because I'm watching you and I'm like, this is a clip right here.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

This is clip that and use that on Instagram because that was really as soon as soon as I put press record on my camera to do content.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

I'm like, oh I have a pen. Like, you know, that was really good. The pen that I hold in my hand is blue.

SPEAKER_05 24:34

Yeah, just draw a total blank, it's just not a good thing, right? But that hypervigilance is part of it for sure. And for I I didn't really have uh personally, I didn't really have that problem. I never really was triggered by those big open spaces or whatever, but things uh stupid stuff would happen to me, like you know, be sunny out or whatever, and then clouds would go over the sun, you know, that happens because you know, and I would notice a change in the light, and it would be like and I would panic because the light changed, and I don't know what it was. My brain, like, am I having a stroke? Am I dying? Am I going blind? What like what is that? Oh my god, it's like it was a cloud, dude. It's a cloud, like we have those.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

That's yeah, lights change, but but but it's a threat type vigilance, isn't it? Yes, I would say something in my because it's your threat response, yeah, yeah, and and you know, amygdala, all that stuff. It's it's scanning for change and threat. So even a loud noise, a change in the light, a drop in temperature, you're constantly hyper-vigilant. And so just in case it just goes bam, I'll keep you alert. But then a lot of us we misinterpret that. Like, oh my god, I'm losing my mind, what's going on? Am I going insane? Is this another part of panic? Blah, blah, blah. And it keeps our attention. I used to do this a lot. Some of my best exposures were to do things like um go for a long walk. So I used to go for a long walk um with my mum down in Devon, and you can get lost there. No signal, you ain't no one's rescuing you. But ultimately, I just thought, I'm just a human being, a healthy human being that's going for a walk. And if I panic, that's fine because the panic will stop, and then I'll get the credit for it, and then then I'll enjoy my walk. But um, when you start planning around, like, oh, where's the nearest hospital? Can I get airlifted out here just in case? Who can save me? That's when you're not, you know, the fear kind of stays wired. But um, it's very common. So if you do struggle with this, it's all good.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

Yeah, I suspect too, if you're in an open, it depends. Your definition of open space is going to change. If you're a city person, just a big park might be open enough for you. But if you already, you know, you're used to that sort of stuff, if you get to a big, vast open area, you might be in a no signal, zero bars, no 5G, which means no rescue, no help, no hospital, no no store to run into with a shopkeeper who will save you. Like, yeah, it can be really intimidating for an agoraphobic. I get it.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah, that's all part of it. Um, I've got a written did it anyway.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

You're going to listen to it.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

Of course I will.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Uh, here we go. Uh I don't think they've given permission to use the name, but here we go. Hey y'all. So obviously American. I'm in the middle of recovering from a raging anxiety disorder that I have experienced over the last few years. I wanted to share a did it anyway. A few nights ago, I received word that my husband was in an in a terrible accident in another state while travelling. Anxiety would have me believe that I was incapable of handling this kind of stress. After all, I'm scared of flying, never flown by myself actually. I'm scared of hospitals, I'm scared of my family members dying, I'm I have anxiety about not sleeping well, etc. etc. All of my worst fears materialized overnight. I'm slowly realizing that I don't need to let anxiety call all the shots anymore, though. While feeling incredibly anxious, I booked flights, arranged childcare, flew overnight to a town I've never been to, uh, with tight connections in an unfamiliar airport, and I'm now at my husband's side, patching him back up. I'm just so glad that I was able to, as an afterthought, realize all the things I handled like a badass, even while anxiety was there. In the words of Stephen Hayes, I don't give a fuck. Anxiety, you can make you can't make me. I know anxiety will still be around, but it's just not the most important thing in the room anymore.

SPEAKER_05 28:31

Oh man. That is outstanding.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Good that, isn't it? I love that phrase as well. Anxiety is not the most important thing in the room. Well done. I hope your husband's uh recovering okay. Sounds like he is, and and and he must have must have meant the world to him that you turned up on your own. Yeah to do. I mean, that's that's love, isn't it? So I like I like it when there's a bit of love on on the podcast. Yeah, that had everything, man. That was a lifetime movie right there. Yeah, just two dry guys going like rewire your brain, and then finally, that's possible. That's an awesome one. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

An actual human being with a soul chimes in, which we desperately needed around here. So that's really good. Uh you know what? Values, we always say values versus fear. And when the value outweighed the fear, which it clearly does in that situation, I'm terrified, but I can't not do this. Suddenly, anxiety gets exposed for like, yeah, really uncomfortable and scary and everything. But like, oh, every time it was like, you can't, don't, you can't, don't do that. It was wrong. You know, and if you don't, it should really, you know, what it really needs to do is like get real and like I would prefer if you don't do that. That's what anxiety really small. Yeah, you are scared, you can't do this, brother. It would be like, maybe we shouldn't. And you'd be like, No, we should. So it needs to tone down a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

No, I'm with you on that. I love that as well. It's uh anxiety will persuade you that you will you have limits. Agrophobia will persuade you that you have limits that will break you if you go past them. Yeah, and yet look at that. That did it anyway, was such an example.

SPEAKER_05 30:07

Really good. Love it. Thanks for sharing. Um, I have an audio. Speaking of flying in big sky, should we do it? Cool, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Hey guys, love the podcast. Thank you for all your that you do. I just wanted to call in and say anyway. I really appreciate it. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Well done. I love that. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Everybody's up in the air, flying. Love it. This is really great.

SPEAKER_03 31:16

That's really lovely. That's really, really lovely. And it's another example of why there's no special fear with anxiety disorders. So try and do that. And an agrophobia, monophobia, stuff like that serves as an example that don't let the threat response think that this is more special than something else. Uh, let's do a quiz. So I'm now joined by The Rock and Wycliffe Sean. So, okay. Hi, The Rock. Um, yeah, but what about going into open fields? I might panic. But what about going to the supermarket where the lights are bright? But what about like if I go a mile away from my car?

SPEAKER_05 31:56

I could just do this all day.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

But what if I had 50 Bentleys in the West Indies? Right, we'll stop now.

SPEAKER_05 32:05

Oh, you know what, man? This is why we're friends. I have been waiting for that moment on this podcast for like five months since we've seen people that's he's he's like a child been wanting to use that for so long. Can I hit the button now? Can I hit it now? Can I hit it now? Are we there yet now? Are we there now? She's touching me, he's touching me. Gosh, he's touching me. Like the bad kid in the backseat of the car. Oh God. It doesn't matter though. That is 100% true. But you know, but what about but what about when there's a lot of people? But what about when you're so far from home? But what about when it's the airport and there's a long security? But what about it's always, but what about, but what about?

SPEAKER_03 32:39

Yeah. No, you've got this. That feeling will pass.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Exactly. Uh, what else we got? We had a question that we did not do last week.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Okay, well, uh we'll we've got some minutes. We'll try and answer.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

We've got a few minutes. All right, so let me unmute this and make sure I don't mess this up because I'm really, really performing under standard today. But here we go.

SPEAKER_07 32:59

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Sarah from the US, and you can use my name. On a recent episode, Josh mentioned that he used to be really into meditation. So I'd love to get his take on something. Several years ago, I also tried meditation, and it was really interesting. But then I read an article about people who meditated extensively and developed extreme DPBR, to the point they stopped feeling anything for their children or knowing what to do at a stoplight. This really freaked me out because my anxiety centers around a fear of insanity. And I was told that you can't just think yourself insane, but it seems like these people did. So I got to the point where even a mention of meditation or Eastern spirituality became a trigger. I could go on about this for a while, but then you'd never play it. So I'll just leave it here and say thanks for everything you do.

SPEAKER_05 33:43

I appreciate the question. I would know you would never play it. So it's a great question. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 33:48

Uh uh meditation often is a trigger for meditation, doesn't equal DPDR. DPDR is a symptom of anxiety. You know, people think that you know it's a special symptom of anxiety, but ultimately, according to the rock, DPDR.

unknown 34:05

It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

But because it messes with our perception and our sensory perception, it's I can tell from the question, I don't like feeling dissociated because my core fear is dementophobia and going insane. So you've conflated two separate things here. Dissociation and DPDR has nothing to do with going insane.

SPEAKER_06 34:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

But because you've had it before and then you've had the thought, what if I go insane? You've put them banding them both together. So you don't want to you're avoiding meditation because it might make you feel DPDR, which is a reminder of your core fear of going crazy. You've you've started a chain here that does make sense. So what we do is, and don't get me wrong, I've had this as well. Um, what we do is our exposures are we do meditation, and yeah, we might feel DPDR, but then an hour later, when you've not gone insane and you're proud of yourself and you're sweating and all that because you've sat with anxiety and panic, your brain will rewire to go, actually, DPDR is okay. It's completely separate from that. And you can we can tell you've gone down a Reddit hole or a research hole. You can just tell from the question, you've spent hours there on the commitment, and your threat response will find a threat. Yeah, you know, it's ignored all the evidence and all that stuff, you know, that about actually a yes, there's some stuff out there like people who've meditated, you know, it's it's exacerbated pre-existing conditions, but there's a reason why you're listening to disordered because you have a fear of fear, you don't like your symptoms, and you you're with it. You've you've you've literally asked a question that's compass mentors, and you're with it. You just fear suddenly losing control or snapping, which just doesn't happen. And particularly, and all meditation is and true is the meditation expert. And he's uploading loads of meditation, uh, anxiety disorder meditations in the disordered app that's coming out very soon.

SPEAKER_06 35:57

I heard about that.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Um, yeah, he's gonna um you're gonna realize no, no, you meditation isn't a thing that creates an explosion in your brain, it's literally just practicing attention without judgment. How's that gonna make you go insane? Oh, yeah, it's gonna force me to stop and feel feelings that I've been trying to avoid all day.

SPEAKER_05 36:15

Yeah, I I think it depends. I agree with you on the reddit rabbit hole. Oh, I heard, I heard about, I read about. That's one of those things that in anxiety disorders, you know, hats off to the ICBT people in OCD, the inferential confusion model applies everywhere, I think. We use rules of logic like hearsay, that's one of them. Did you hear about? But I heard about, yeah, I know. And then your anxiety brain was like, then it definitely happens and it's gonna happen to you tomorrow. So you better not meditate. Like, no, it was a story on the internet about a person, but there are so many variables there. In meditation, the way we would use it in our context, it has nothing to do with like going deep inside and like accessing subconscious things and like elevating the different planes. There are people who do try to do that in meditation, and that's the point of the meditation. I would not give an anxious person that assignment to do. When you're not anxious anymore, if you want to play with that stuff, knock yourself out. There's nothing wrong with it. Like go ahead and experiment with like consciousness and meditation. We are literally just sitting for five and ten minutes at a time to practice paying attention. That's all. There is no mechanism that leads to forgetting who your kids are and not loving them. I'm being aggressive here because that's crazy. That is a that's like, oh, I did you hear about how, like, you know, uh, whatever the Hindenburg blew up. I'm thinking I might not want to get a skateboard. Wait, wait, what? Like a skateboard is not a dirigible, so but somehow your anxiety brain connect that together because it's all yeah, well, it's both transportation. Yeah, I know. Well, it's both meditation, but there are very vast differences in the way you might do that.

SPEAKER_03 37:48

So yeah, and also it's so common when people experience DPDR for the first time and they don't know what it is. Almost everyone just goes, Oh, am I going crazy? Am I going insane? But what they don't what they remember is the thought, not the feeling. Yeah, oh, the thought is what I remember. Not actually, I would just felt really scared.

SPEAKER_05 38:07

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And often for anxious people with things like DPDR feeling dissociated. Oh, do I love my kids still? Is a question, it's not a state.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

I I get a lot of that though. I get a lot of OCD clients as well that are like, but how do I know I love my kids? I'll tell you what, I'll stare at them all day and test and then do things. I'm like, yeah, yeah, don't expect anxiety to disappear when you make it the most important thing in the room.

SPEAKER_05 38:34

Yeah, we're gonna talk about that a lot. But that you know, a good way, I think we've talked about this before. Well, what if I, you know, it lead it led to somebody who stopped loving their kids or couldn't love their kids, but really would make you ask, Am I sure that I love my kids right now? And that is just change that. Don't ask the question, just say, I'm afraid I'm going to snap and not lose love my kids. Boom, then that's it. The conversation's over. That's what you're afraid of. So try to answer those questions. Anyway, that's my hot take on that. That everybody really needed.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Great question, really good. And you know, I think a lot of people would have um resonated with that too. But it's dementiaphobia. Look, just oh, I'm a Sophia going crazy, and I've my anxiety has constructed this narrative that I'm just tiptoeing around. So go go meditate, go, go do one of Drew's meditations, you know, and see what it's like. You know, and if you can it might send you insane because of how absolutely mind-numbing it is, but there we go.

SPEAKER_05 39:25

And in the middle of the meditation, you're gonna get so that's not easy at all. Like I just saw you now, like we're throwing balls at you, eggs and you got to pay attention. No, I'm joking, but I think it's really important, and I'll end here. I promise, if you want to explore meditation as an anxious person as part of your recovery strategy or just overall wellness strategy, make look for things that are labeled with MBSR like mindfulness-based stress reduction. They're the I'm gonna use air quotes here, safest ones to pick because they have nothing to do.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah, you don't want to do transcendental meditation.

SPEAKER_05 39:58

Like if you just look for like meditation for calm or peaceful meditation, which people are gonna look for if they're really anxious. You might get led down a different type of meditation, which is still isn't gonna kill you or hurt you, but it's not the one we're really looking for. Like, save that for later after you're not afraid of your own mind anymore. So, anyway.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Yeah, absolutely agree. It's nice. Um, when you were saying before, uh that intrusive thought that I was just laughing at was just that phrase, you know, uh, they had a face only a mother could love. And I just love that phrase, it's such an insult.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

You don't hear that anywhere either, but you're true.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Yeah, they had a face only a mother can love. What a burn.

SPEAKER_05 40:39

Yeah, that's an old school burn too, you know. Anyway, I guess we're good. 40 minutes in.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

Did all right. Thank you for the uh recent reviews and stuff. Sign up to the newsletter to be the first people to know about the app. And yes, we're banging on about the book, but it is done. We're just making sure the pages fit together, and um, yeah, we'll we'll let you know when it's out because we'll release an app a bonus episode as soon as it is. But anyway, we're here every Friday. Thanks for tuning in.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

Yeah, thanks a bunch, guys. We'll see you next week. We're out.