Nocturnal Panic Attacks and Scary Dreams (Episode 60)

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Hi, Josh and Drew. Um, first off, just thank you so much for all your guys' help. I have panic disorder and OCD, and I'm also 35 weeks pregnant. So a lot of stuff going on for me right now. Um, but one thing I struggle with the most are nocturnal panic attacks, and things are staying the same. I wouldn't say getting worse, but just staying the same. So, just a question, I guess, about after the panic attack and you get through it and you're working on things and doing things correctly. Why is it that we're still experiencing so many anxious thoughts? And I guess there's a lot of frustration around, come on, brain, just get this already. So, thank you guys again. Um, hope you have a great day.

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 60 entitled Nocturnal Panic Attacks. When we get panic in the night, usually when it wakes us up. Uh, my name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety disorders. I'm a podcast co-host, a content creator, and author of the book. And how does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am coming to you from New York in the USA, where I am a therapist completing my training now, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. And what else? I am also a co-host of a podcast. I'm an author. I'm a former sufferer of anxiety, anxiety disorders, and depression for many years. And uh yeah, I'm just happy to be here, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

So yeah, of course you're happy. You're featured in the New York Times.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Well, you know, there's that too. That's my other podcast, which is called the Yankee. You don't have another podcast. You don't, this is all you have. This is I just sit silently with my mouth agape, waiting to record once an hour, once a week with Josh. We do disorder. I was in the New York Times, my other podcast. Yes, agape. That's my big word for the day.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

Yeah, big congratulations to Drew featuring in the New York Times and uh our friend Kimley Quinlan, who's also featured in the New York Times. And if you would like to listen to some substandard podcasts called Your Anxiety Toolkit and the Anxious Truth, go go for it if you want. If you want to be a substandard person, I'm not jealous. Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 2:28

No, Josh isn't jealous at all. No, thank you, man. I really appreciate it. That was fun to be featured there. And for those who already listened because you found it there, cool. Thank you. Anyway, nocturnal panic attacks. You ever have them? I have. I have had nocturnal panic attacks. They are no fun. Let us acknowledge that right off the top. They are jarring, they jolt you out of bed, they come out of the blue because I'm sleeping. How can I be anxious? What can I be thinking about? It sucks.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Me too. Uh usually I can not for me, they usually happen not so long after falling asleep. And then I just but I can be known to bolt up in bed. Uh it still happens probably now, now and then, not often, but it's probably happened this year at least once, twice. Um, yeah, where you just hit with a dump of adrenaline, you bolt up, your heart's pounding, you feel like you're in immediate danger. Uh, for me, it was like, oh my god, I'm having a heart attack, or what the hell's going on? Um, yeah, nocturnal panic attacks. Um, can't see them coming, particularly if you're an anxious person and you're threat monitoring all the time, or threat monitoring your sensations. Uh, if you're on that on that compulsive hamster wheel, a nocturnal panic attack feels a little bit different because it's not preceded by all the monitoring and threat. It's oh, it's woken me up. I was dreaming.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

I think it's the same as we hear it ever every day, and anybody who's dealt with this sort of stuff has felt this. I used to feel it too. Even during the day, I don't know, it just came out of the blue. I was just I was just watching a movie or I was, you know, listening to some music, I was talking with my partner, and suddenly, boom, I got hit with a panic attack in broad daylight in waking hours. That's a really common experience. I can't specifically identify a trigger that I so want to identify so that I can predict it and stay safe from it. But at night, that's amplified even more. How is it even possible? I was sleeping, I cannot be monitoring, I cannot be thinking about scary thoughts. How is this even possible? So there's an incredulity that comes along with that. Something must be wrong for this to happen.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

Yeah, I think you nailed it then when you said, because I can't uh monitor it, stay safe, I can't anticipate it. Um, when actually anyone is susceptible to an adrenaline dump at night. Um sorry, just laughing at the word dump. Uh I knew you were gonna do anything. I knew you were going there the minute it came out of here. I'm like, I know what he's doing. Um yeah, an adrenaline dump, we can all have we all get them, you know. People get nightmares, they bolt up in bed. You know, watch any TV show or thriller movie, you know, the protagonist bolts up in bed. But for people who struggle with panic disorder and OCD, and a great question, by the way, thank you for sending it in. They can somehow perceive them as something special, something different, something we've got to fix. But how can I have maintained the illusion that I'm fixing anxiety if I'm asleep and I can't work on it per se?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

I think you just nailed that, the illusion that I'm fixing it. Because I think one of the things that makes a nocturnal panic attack more difficult to accept the reality of that you're it's happening, so you're gonna, I know you want to resist it, is because it rips away all of your rituals, right? So you don't get to do any of them, you're just boom, awake and instantly in the panic state. It's too late to tap your cheekbones and count blue things and get your ice packs and try and stop it too late. Pull on your ear, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was me. I was a big ear puller, but like it's it takes it rips it all away. Boom, you're in the middle of it.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

But but I've spent all day regulating my nervous system. Why has this not happened? I don't I'm doing all the right things. Sorry, I realized that I could I've developed the soundboard, so now we both share the sound clips. Um this probably the start of the demise of this podcast. I apologize. But no, it's like oh no, I've done all the right things, I've not been anxious all day. Maybe I've not been anxious for weeks. And then suddenly, yeah, boom, wake up in the middle of the night, I'm panicking. Yes, what would what's your advice for that?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

You know, this is where I I love how we get the sounds of Manchester in the background. So can you hear that? Yeah, somebody's backing up, right? The the window's shut. That's amazingly loud.

SPEAKER_03 6:54

And this is a condenser mic.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, it should not be picking that up, but clear. Yeah, yeah. Definitely reversing. It doesn't matter. Right, exactly. That Lori, like how I use the Lori term instead of the truck, it will never run anybody over because it's so loud going backwards. Yeah. I think it is to get back to the question, like the term radical acceptance, that's that Tara Brock thing that she talks about all the time. I think it really applies. It it we struggle with nocturnal panic attacks because it forces us to accept even the thing that seems the most unacceptable and perplexing, and I can't figure that out. What do you mean? I just have to accept that I have them. It seems ridiculous to even suggest that. I think that's what makes them even more difficult. It is truly an exercise in radical acceptance. Tonight I might fall asleep, and then two hours later I might bolt upright in my bed, gasping for air, sweating with my heart pounding, and thinking that I'm dying. Yeah, I might. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

I've got it down to a T now. So when I have them, they're frightening. I do accept them, but obviously people misconstrue what we mean by accept them. Yeah, I'm not I don't bolt up in bed and be like, oh, I accept this back to sleep. No, it's uh it's oh, I accept what's happening. I'm having an adrenaline dump. This isn't anything new. I don't need to add secondary fear. I'm gonna feel a bit, you know, shaken up and vulnerable for a bit. If I'm that shaken up, I'll get up, make a nice herbal tea, allow myself to calm down without ruminating, without compulsively scanning, without going on Google trying to find out, and just be like, no, I'll let the adrenaline pass and go back to bed.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

Um, yeah, I had one a few weeks ago. It lasted about three minutes, and I did literally go back to sleep. Yeah. I was like, yeah, I was like, I know what this is now. Yeah, it's frightening. Um I often find as well for me, and this is a personal thing for me, it's usually when I eat really late at night because my body is when it's trying to sleep, it's trying to process there's a lot going on there, so it's trying to process that kilogram of cheddar cheese that I ate uh before going to bed, um, and or or whatever it is, and it's usually around that. But the main the main trigger for nocturnal panic attacks, other than fearing fear and still in that cycle, the main trigger in my experience is stress. So if your stress drug is overflowing, bear in mind the the question sender in a said, uh they're pregnant, they're 35 weeks pregnant. Well, your body is gonna go through physical stress as well as mental stress, um, the natural stresses and fears of being an imminent parent, worries about pregnancy, etc. There's probably a lot going on, hormonal changes as well, they're going nuts. Uh turn off World of Warcraft. And and yeah, and so don't be surprised if some nights your nervous system is going to be highly sensitive, because it is, it will be, and like when we when we dream, you know, we dream about anything, we dream about bizarre things, nice things, scary things. Uh, don't be surprised if the amygdala steps in and goes, that might be a threat, you're really stressed, have a load of adrenaline, and you bolt up at night. That's okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Amygdala. It's just gonna it's gonna do and I like how we made an appearance at the beginning of the episode, too. But I it's gonna do what it's gonna do. And I think you've made a good point. Like in TV shows and movies, we recognize that the main character is under the gun. There's a big, has a huge meeting the next morning, wakes up in the middle of the night, can't why wouldn't that? That's a natural thing to happen to human beings. Their sleep will be interrupted by stress. Sometimes it gets interrupted at an extreme level. You know, unfortunately, we don't have a I know what people are gonna ask though, like, well, then what what do you do? How do you deal with that? Those are always, and I think this question comes up around uh nocturnal panic attacks almost more than any other. But what about nausea? But what about my heart rate? But what about but what about nocturnal panic attacks? Clearly, there must be some special instructions or advice. They can't you can't possibly be talking about nocturnal panic attacks the same way, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:10

Yeah, this is special, right? Uh, but these are the people that are probably doing really well in their waking days. But why is why am I struggling with this? No, it's not failure if you wake up with a panic attack. It's not failure, right? If you if you wake up tonight, true, with a with a panic attack, what are you gonna think you're a failure? That this is something that you need to fix and work on.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

No, I mean, but I think it's common in our community, like if I, you know, I am well, I feel so recovered that I write books and podcasts and become a therapist over this stuff, right? But if I wake up in the middle of the night with a panic attack, I think in our community it would be natural to say, uh-oh, my recovery is broken. I'm having a setback. I don't see it that way at all. I'm just having a really unpleasant experience. I'd rather not wake up with a panic attack if possible. But you I can interpret it as like, oh, this is the the roof is caved in on me.

SPEAKER_03 12:01

Explain what you do. So let's say you you did wake up, uh, because I get asked this a lot. What is it exactly you would do if you woke up with a panic attack or a nocturnal panic attack?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Yeah, uh for me, I guess it depends. You know, and it can happen to me now and then, usually, like Josh says, uh, I am more susceptible to it if I'm super stressed or if I'm like really sleep deprived, I haven't been taking good care of myself. The eating late at night thing, that's true. If I skimp on sort of like self-care and I don't, you know, I don't eat all day and I'm starving at nine at night, and so I eat too close to bed, I'm more likely to have it, just like Josh, similar. It depends. Some nights, if it happens to me, I will get out of bed. Maybe I'll read for a while, I'll go get a glass of water, I'll, you know, do some stretching or I'll use my foam roller because my back hurts, and it's just, well, there's an up, I guess I'll just foam roll and chill and wait for it to end. Some nights I can literally not even sit up. It depends. I I don't know, it's gonna vary. Some nights I if it happens to me, I will not even sit up. I I can just lay there with it and just like, oh yeah, I know what to do here. And I'll just just breathe and and it's over in a few minutes and I can fall right back asleep. So it really varies. I just never take evasive action. I have to stop this, I must stop it right now. I must provide I have to stop it right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

No, I never do that. Yeah, back to the drawing board. What have I missed? Right. I must be doing something wrong. Actually, I see it sometimes for what the big the body's trying to signal to me. And for me, a lot of the time when I get nocturnal panel tax, I'm stressed. Yeah. You know, maybe I've not got the, you know, I've not been exercising recently or doing good things for me, uh, or having an outlet for that stress in the day. I notice particularly if I'm really stressed and then I don't have a positive outlet, like um, I do things like meditation and I do things like exercise or just switching off. Sometimes I'll just play read or whatever, having that first gear stuff. If I don't do that and I'm constantly pushing, pushing, pushing, fifth gear, fifth gear, trying to tick everything off the list, and then I suddenly have a nocturnal panic attack. I see that as a kind of positive.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah. Yeah. And the next, usually the next morning, I can identify that. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what I'm doing here. And and it becomes helpful in a in a way. That sounds ridiculous, but it does become helpful. You know, I think one thing that I I want to talk about for a second is if it happens to me, and this is, I think everybody will have this experience, recovered or not, there is emotion that comes with that. I'm frustrated. Oh like I really I'm tired. I wanted to try and have a good night's sleep. I you're allowed to want that. Like, you know, I'm gonna be now I'm up for an hour or whatever the heck it is. I'm gonna be exhausted in the morning, damn it. And there's frustration, sometimes a little bit of anger that comes with it. That's normal. So, like every human being might be frustrated or angry or bothered or perturbed by that. Yeah, I know I might be, but in the disordered state, you have to be careful to recognize, yeah, make room for the emotion of this is super frustrating. You're allowed to be frustrated and express that. Just be careful about gluing the big emotion of frustration and anger as if it's some somehow part of the problem or indicates a bigger problem.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Yeah. Uh, and those with sleep perfectionism or people who compulsive, you know, fall into the compulsive wellness trap of, oh, I well, this is going to take an hour out of my sleep. And if I don't sleep, a sudden hour is gonna be more anxious. No, it's a double whammy for you to realize that actually you can still have not that great sleep and nocturnal panic attacks and still go on to have probably one of the best days of your life the next day. Yeah, you know, that's I still stand by that. One of the best days of my life, I had an hour's sleep the night before. I was like, oh, waking up groggy, felt like rubbish. Turned out to be one of the best days of my life. Amazing, right? You know, so so yeah, so it's like, wow, you know, like I try uh it's particularly people that were if you've got uh this guy's Craig the critic constantly on their shoulder going, you need to do better, you need to fix yourself, you need to do all these things. No, no, it's okay. Don't make it a special thing, as Drew often says, it's not a special thing. However, we you do have to look at nocturnal panic attacks sometimes if you struggle. Well, from the perspective of first of all, PTSD. So if you're waking up with the same recurring dream or flashbacks to a traumatic event, then that means that could mean that your nocturnal panic panic attacks mean something. It means maybe there's some unprocessed memories there, uh, which is always good to take to therapy, particularly someone trained in EMDR and trauma. Uh, always good for that. Um, but that's obvious. And then following this, if you've got OCD and you struggle with intrusive thoughts or false memory or whatever, um I always never leave you behind OCD people, particularly false memory OCD people as well. What if that was actually a memory? And because I've been thinking about it all day and now dreaming about it, then maybe it is a memory. Nope, we don't leave you behind. Get on the track, it's okay. Uh, it's very normal to have recurring dreams when you have OCD. It's very normal to dream about what you've literally been thinking about all day. Yeah. Uh, that's what the brain does. So yeah, I know those people with those particular anxiety disorders will struggle with nocturnal panic attacks.

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Yeah, what if it mean what if that's actually a memory, repressed memory OCD theme? Or what if it just means that I'm if I dream about it, aren't I inviting it in? Does that mean that I actually secretly like that thought? Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:56

When you're dreaming about your weird, intrusive situation. Right, I dream about it.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

So that must mean that I unsubconsciously I actually like that. Oh no, I actually I like harm thoughts. I like, you know, unscrupulous thoughts. Like, no, it doesn't mean that at all. It doesn't mean that. And it also doesn't mean that you're accidentally inviting it in or manifesting it. That's another problem that OCD people would have.

SPEAKER_03 18:17

Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, all day I've been keeping a tab on this, but now I'm dreaming about it. This is my what I truly want and desire. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not. It's just it's just keeping you in the rumination roller coaster.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

It's just what your brain does. We should talk about dreams, though, because I think it it relates to this. Sometimes people will say, maybe All right, young. Yeah, let's do it, man. I'm gonna go, let's go all Freudian, man. Lay on the couch, let's do this. I think um people will, even if they're not dealing with particular like panic attacks, uh a related question becomes, but what about when you have really strong or vivid dreams? But what about? And well, what about it? You know, I don't mean to sound flippant, but you know, that's not even a question half the time. It's just I'm having really vivid dreams and they disturb me. So what are the steps there? What's the advice there? It's a dream, you know. What how do I how do I stop myself from having that dream? Or what do I do? How do I respond to that dream? It's a dream. You just said it. It's a great, yeah. I mean, and in a way, like I'm being flippant about it because I want to reflect back and unconcern. Like, you know, I know that you feel like that vivid dream is so jarring and must be significant, and there must be something to it, but I also know that you were just dreaming and you don't get to control that. Your dream, your your brain's gonna do that. So they just they just don't mean it.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

Oh, it's really interesting. It reminds me of a couple of good friends of mine. They're uh they're in a very happy relationship, uh, very comfortable with each other. Uh, we were sat at the dinner table, and and one of them turned around, she said, I had a dream I slept with this certain celebrity last night, and it was and it was wonderful. Uh uh and a partner, and he's just sat there like, Who was it? And she was like, Oh, this person. He was like, Oh, fair play. Why don't I have those dreams? Yeah, because that's what it means. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, I want those dreams. I just dream about, I don't know, silly, meta, surreal things. Uh, yeah, it's uh because he knew that her dream doesn't mean anything, right? You know, it's either like whatever, you know. And I just thought I I sat there like, yeah, that's that's a good attitude to have, you know, just like they're just dreams, it doesn't matter. It's not you, it's just your brain scrambling and filing things away. And obviously we just laughed and it was silly dinner dinner table chat, but yeah, you know, there we are. Um, but that's the I I think that personifies the attitude that you should have towards towards your dreams, unless you're like a super psychodynamic therapist who believes that there is meaning in all your dreams. Um I'm not that therapist, but I mean, I I think it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

You know who said that by the way? And she's talked about it and we podcasted together on our live streams. Kim, Kim Quinlan. She told that story. I wake up every morning, you know, and have to tell my husband that, like, oh yeah, this last night I was with, and he'd be like, Oh, really? Like, that's what you really like who was it last night? You know, and it just became a joke. She actually has talked about that openly, that she has she's had that in that experience too.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Yeah, I you have them all the time. I've had violent dreams of hurting family members and loved ones. Uh, and I woke up and but immediately, because it's just like it's like uh I speak to them next day. I was like, I was beating you up in my dream last night. And a lot of times there's laughter in response, like, really, dude, like it to that level. Yeah, my my cousin or something, and she's like, who won the fight?

SPEAKER_01 21:32

Oh, really? You were beating me up, really, really.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's just like, yeah, because the brain just processes weird things and and um obvious and also your brain needs to know one thing in order to process the meaning through the other. You need to know what it's like to feel the opposite of something in order to appreciate what it feels like. The opp to feel the opposite of that feeling. Yeah. You know, similar to like you can't know light without dark, happiness without sadness, morals without Immoral, etc. etc. Let the brain just do what it needs to do. And um didn't we have I'm sure we had a did it anyway? We have a did anyway. Sleep anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Let's play that perfectly in there. And I be uh what did I want to say one more thing about dreams and I cannot remember what it was, but if it if it is, I'll if I remember I'll bring it up.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

The Fleetwood Mac Classic, because that is an amazing song. That is a good song. We should play that. We'll get in trouble. No, we shouldn't. We'll get nailed. Yeah, we'll get nailed.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Yeah, we do. Uh so this is from Gabby. Gabby sent this in a while ago. We just haven't had a chance to use it, and it's perfect for this episode. I will read it. Uh, and Gabby give us permission to use her name. So hello, Josh and Drew. My anxiety has been pretty bad since the start of the year. So I've been listening to your podcast and your Instagram. Then I audio booked your book, Anxiety, Panicking About Panic. That's Josh's first book. It was a huge aha moment that I was trying to solve all these little problems in my head, but all of them were anxiety. The body scanning in the mornings, is it gone? Uh it was making things so much worse. So in the last two weeks, I've really tried and I'm already feeling better. The test came last night, this is where it becomes perfect for this episode, when I was woken up with tinnitus or tinnitus and a huge adrenaline surge, what a lot of people might call a panic attack. A few months ago, I would have panicked and caused insomnia. Last night I decided to get up, have a glass of water, and go back to bed. Tell my body it's okay, it's just adrenaline, nothing wrong. And if I'm tired in the morning from no sleep, I can handle it. It is what it is, and I've done it before, even if it's uncomfortable. Well, I started to drift off into day or night dreaming and finally just went to sleep. Something so easy wouldn't have been that easy a few months ago. Honestly, thank you. Every time I feel yucky and weird, and it's very nice. But Gabby says some nice words to us and just says, sorry that it's long, but I that's my did it anyway. Perfect for this episode. What a great, great experience, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:53

That's so perfect. Well done, Gabby. We should have just read that out and ended the episode. Not turn on panic attacks. Do what Gabby does. Micro. There we go. Yeah, I don't need to know what I do. It's not a thing. Yeah. No, it's uh Gabby's. This isn't a thing. It's horrible. And I'm I'm so used to this now. I it I it's not I obviously I'm not gonna be able to sleep because if I feel scary, I'm gonna get a glass of water and just allow myself to go back to the state. And uh well done, that's perfect. Yeah, reaction. Do what Gabby does.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yeah, Gabby's superhero there. I knew what popped into my head was for people who have that thinking about thinking problem, or they become fixated on the idea of consciousness and how their consciousness works. Sometimes vivid dreams or lucid dreams or nocturnal panic attacks will be super triggering too, because it's like, oh my God, that's my consciousness or my awareness working without without out of my control. I have no control over that. Like, this is this crazy automatic conscious thing that happens that I can't do it. Oh my god, and they get freaked out over that too. Same thing. Like, yeah, I notice that I'm having vivid dreams, and I notice that I'm being freaked out because I think about the mechanism of it. Okay, yeah, yeah, you can handle being freaked out.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Uh uh advice for people with anticipatory anxiety of nocturnal panic attacks, because um, you'll get a few people that go to bed and be like, Oh, I I hope I don't get woken up with an adrenaline dump tonight, you know, like, oh gosh. So I'm laughing adrenaline dump again. I've never laughed at, I've used that word so many times. Uh, I think it's just the imagery that comes anyway. Um, I hope I don't get woken up by a panic attack tonight. That's special nocturnal panic attack. No, my advice to you is go to bed and your homework starts as soon as you do wake up. But the irony is this is we always talk about this paradox. Yeah, when you're ready, super ready and prepared. Right, I'm in bed. Let's go. Wake me up in one hour's time with a horrendous panic attack. Oh, I've got you, I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

I'm gonna do what Drew, Josh, and Gabby do, and you'll sleep like a baby. Or the odds are much higher that you will. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The odds are much higher. And you're just like, oh, and I think that's the difference with nocturnal panic attacks. They're not special. Recovery is I don't mind if I get an adrenaline rush in my sleep, in the supermarket, out my friends, at a gig, at a works due. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. I'm good, I'm working on the secondary fear. Yeah, and this is no different when I'm in the land of slumber.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

By the way, I think the issue here is that when adrenaline turns from a noun into an adjective, then adrenaline dump gets really funny. Just popped into my head.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

I'm not gonna explain why the imagery of it is going through my head. That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

I I I can bail you out on that. Um, but yeah, you're right. It's not a thing. You have to learn radical acceptance because even the thing that seems like I cannot possibly allow that this is my reality, but it is. So, like anything else, if that is your reality, if you are having nocturnal panic attacks, resisting it and trying to find ways to manage a thing that you don't get to manage is resistance, is futile, said the Borg. And they were right, they were right in a lot of ways. Like, this is my reality, so what can I do with it? Is is probably the better better question. And you're safe. Yeah, that's right. Even when you're really afraid, you know, it's one of the core principles that that people like Josh and I operate on is that danger or feeling afraid, even really afraid, doesn't always automatically equal unsafe. In our context, it rarely, if ever, equals unsafe. There's no angry bear or lion. You're okay?

SPEAKER_03 27:36

No, you know just feels like and you're uh got that doubt. Anyway, uh, we hope that you got something out of that nocturnal panic attack. There's not really too much we need to talk about uh about that, because we don't want to make it a huge thing. No, uh, just go for it. And if you do, if you have a nocturnal panic attack and you deal with it well, send it in. Send it to disorder.fm and we'll we'll we'll read or play your your did it anyways, we want to hear how you do because we know a lot of you do struggle with that nocturnal panic attack stuff.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

My last statement on this will be if you're feeling upset because you feel like the safest place you have has been violated, that's okay to feel that way too. We can validate that emotion. Some people will say, But I'm in my bed, I'm cozy, I'm in my covers, like I'm safe, my dog is with me, my partner is come on, man. Like, yeah, I get that that level of frustration. Like, really, even here, really, is that what you're gonna bring it? So again, make room for that emotion, but uh, it's still okay. You can still get through it. Agree. Should we do a success story? We have a great audio success story from our friend Vicky. So, how about we play that? This isn't a did it anyway. This is like a success story, so let's hear it. Let me just awkwardly pause before I play it.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Hi, Drew and Josh. I'm messaging you because I woke up this morning on a Friday realizing it was Friday, and realizing that I don't listen to your podcast anymore. Not because your podcast is not amazing, it really is, and it saved my life last year, but I don't need it anymore. I'm focusing on other things. Uh last year I was dealing with lots of um panic, OCD, agoraphobia, anxiety, and I still deal with those things actually almost every day. Um, but I also keep going and I'm living a life full of values, trust, and go. I just live my life and I let that stuff come along for the ride. I wouldn't say I'm recovered, I would say I carry those things with me and I'm not scared of them. I know that I actually, in a weird way, love them for all the things they've taught me. I trust that they're part of my journey. But I wanted to thank you for your podcasts, and I know it's a lifeline for a lot of people, and I guess I just wanted to share that you helped me so much, and I wanted to thank you, and also share with folks that it definitely gets better. Just keep living the life that non-anxious you would live, and it gets so much better. So thank you, Drew and Josh. You're incredible. Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Whoa, that was really great. I think that was um that was so lovely. Thank you, Lindsay, for sending that in. Um, and to echo something that Drew said a while back, you know, you I think we're the only podcast that says that, you know, like if you're in a good place, don't listen to us. You know, it's okay. You know, we're not hiding anything different, but we're always beer every Friday, cranking out the episodes just in case you want to pop in and and listen and maybe catch up on some stuff that you don't know. Um, also really appreciate Lindsay sending that in whilst paragliding, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yeah, it was we we debated whether or not we could play because of the wind noise. Lindsay's in the Pacific Northwest, and it gets a little blustery out there, but but it was you could not play that. That was that was a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Thank you, Lindsay.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

That's really good. Yeah, that made me feel good. Thanks, Linse. Appreciate it, and congrats on on your progress for sure.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Yeah, I've got a did it anyway. Uh it's uh it's a written one. Um here we go. Um, hi guys. First of all, your podcast has been an immense help for me these last few weeks. Good to hear. I don't know if this counts as a did it anyway, but I wanted to share. Feel free to use my name. Last weekend I went to a small concert with my partner, which is not really something unusual, as I've been to lots of gigs before. However, this was the first time ever I was not anxious at a concert. I just kind of said to my anxiety in my head, you're welcome to join me, but I'm not gonna give you any attention. There is another win in this story. While we were getting ready to leave the club, my partner spotted the singer talking to fans and asked me if I wanted to take a picture with her. In the past, I'd have declined and regretted it for months. This time I said, F it, let's do this even if I get anxious. So I got to tell one of my favorite artists how much her music means to me and got a picture with her to prove it. Willful tolerance really is life-changing. Amazing. Uh, that was from Paulina, yeah. That's from Paulina. Thank you for sending that in. Uh, love that. Double did it anyway. Great uh use of the attitude shift towards things. So glad you enjoyed the gig and well done for uh taking it a step even further, you know. Uh it reminds me of the old um oh I should have played it during that. Reminds you of this guy.

unknown 33:01

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

You weren't done yet. I'm gonna go there, enjoy the gig, and then I'm even gonna talk to the to the lead singer. I think it's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

Yeah, it's really great. Because then you know you get to connect with something that you really enjoy, and the the enhancement of the experience, I got to tell this artist that they're meaningful to me. They're they're impacting my life. What a great experience! Great night. Well done. That's a fantastic one. Very good. Uh, what else we got? We got an audio question. Should we do that one? It's funny that we're all kind of dovetailing today because this one sort of fits with Lindsay's uh conversation about values and our last episode, value-driven recovery. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

Hey guys, um, you can use my name if you want. I am based in New York City. I have a question on your values-based approach episode. I got stuck in the cycle many years ago, and right when it happened, I didn't want to let it win, and I just wanted to continue living my life and living by my values. So I kept working, I kept going out with friends, going out to dinners, traveling, you know, being in relationships, everything. And then I eventually just completely burnt myself out, and I had to take a step back out of life um to really rest and rebuild myself. Um, and so right now I am trying to reintegrate into society, but I am nervous to burn myself out again. I want to live by my values, but I want to make sure that I'm living by them in a sustainable way. So just curious, how do you live by your values, but not burn yourself out and let the anxiety fully take over? Um, I hope this question makes sense. And thank you for everything you do.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

That's a really good question. Thank you, Vicky.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Good question. You take it, Drew. This is your bag.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

Yeah, I'm not the values guy. I I think, first of all, that's gonna be my new tagline, I'm the values guy. I think it becomes interesting to see, and we were talking about this before we hit the record button, that almost anything can become compulsive if we're not careful. And it sounds like Vicky got into the trap of like, I'm not only do I want to live according to the things that I value, but I must always live by my values. And I gotta I've got to check. Am I val am I living by my values? Am I really tired and drawn out and I need some some genuine rest? But no, no, no, no, I have to go out and live, I have to go out and live by my values. So it can become a little bit compulsive, especially for an anxious mind where our brains get a little sticky and we can get stuck in those patterns. So be careful about that. There's no perfect way to live by your values. There's no there's no right way or perfect way to do that. Am I living by am I how am I how am I doing now? Am I living my values now? Did I do it today? Did I do value-driven recovery enough today? You gotta be flexible with yourself. Sometimes you will not act according to your values. Even non-anxious people struggle with that. We have a whole department of human beings that have been tasked with figuring that out for thousands of years. They're called philosophers or theologians. They have not figured it out yet. So you can give yourself a break. It's okay to do it wrong. In fact, I would say experiment with doing it wrong. Today I'm gonna be a lazy bum and let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_03 36:06

Yeah, that's a great answer. I'd also shortcut it and be like, why don't you insert two more values? One, it's okay to not live perfectly, which I'm sure you would apply to anyone else. Um and the other value is I forgot the other value.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Well, I would I was gonna say health or or self-care, like health is a value. I value my health.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Stop stop or chill out, do nothing. Yeah, that was it. Thanks for the reminder. Yeah, uh, yeah, it's it. Insert those two things in and you sort it. Like, oh, I'm not, am I living by my value? You know what? Maybe this afternoon I'm not, and that's okay because that's one of my values too. I'm allowed to just stop and not not be compulsive for an afternoon. It's all right.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah, taking care of yourself or valuing your health or your well-being is a value too. And guess what? If you don't tick values, you're not check boxes. We said that in the last episode. That was episode 59. If you want to go back and listen to that, you cannot check a box on values. Did I check my value box today? No, like you're not gonna check them all every day. So it's okay. Relax that requirement a little bit. And if that's uncomfortable, because it makes you feel like you're doing it wrong, well, then you know that's an area where you have a little bit of work to do. Oh, I'm not t I cannot tolerate the discomfort, so I gotta get out the door and do something to check the box.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Yeah, I think you're right there. Make sure it's not compulsive and just exactly you know, I feel like doing this today. Well, that's cool. Yeah, uh, thank you once again for everyone for tuning in. Um, I love doing this podcast. And if you struggle with nocturnal panic attacks, you know, doesn't matter to if you sleep well tonight or not, bring it on, you know. But I do hope you sleep well tonight. Obviously, I'm not wishing you a horrendous night's sleep. Um, but try not to, you know, try not to make it a special thing. And hopefully you've got something from this episode.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Yeah. If you have anything to add, you can always find us at disordered.fm. You could send us voicemails, you could send us emails from there. We love all of them. We can't always play them all or respond to them all, but we do try to read them all and listen to them all for sure. Um, if you're listening to the podcast on Apple or Spotify, you know, a nice rating and review is always helpful. That's at we get a lot of organic growth in the podcast, so you're helping other people find the podcast too. We appreciate that. And what else? Anything else we got to say?

SPEAKER_03 38:18

No, about can we please go out to the back intro music? Can we turn it to an outro music this time? Because I think it's a nice way to leave in a creepy way. Oh, you mean the the uh takata and fugue in D minor? That one? Oh, is it D minor? I thought it was G minor.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Oh, it's in D minor, but I don't know what I'm talking about. I don't know what D minor means. We were very busy over here improving on Bach, by the way, before we started. And you know what we didn't play? I'm really upset about this. We didn't play this clip. Sorry, Billy Squire. Anyway, I will dub that in, no problem. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll see you next week. See ya later.